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The situation:
Our local 40K playing group tends to allow proxies to help people get into the game, determine what they want to buy after play-testing, etc. One of the guys plays Tyranids, and he's the guy who consistently proxies almost his entire army since he hasn't bothered to acquire more than a handful of models over the last few years. He'll be involved in our upcoming Planetary Empires campaign and will be using termagants/tervigons.

The issue:
As written in his codex regarding a Tervigon spawning Termagants - "If you cannot place some of the models due to the restrictions above or because you have run out of Termagant models, the excess is discarded."

The question:
Where should we draw the line concerning how many termagants he can proxy? Current estimates place him at ~20 termagant models. Should we allow him to spawn untold millions of bugs with no regard to the fact that everyone else in the group has invested time and effort in expanding and painting our collections, or the RaW in his codex?

We're a friendly bunch and generally have no issue with proxies for the new guys, but the person in question exploits that generosity and is not new to the game.

How should we deal with this?

If he has models of the same size, I'd say let him.
However, if he is trying to pass of shoestring and dead cats as Gants, draw the line. Generally, I allow proxies as long as you have the proper size model, preferably as close as possible.

Yup, he's taking the mickey, buy some models or get out! A few years is enough to at least try!

This is not a true Rule as Written question;
The only correct answer will be to discuss it with the people playing because it is entirely in your hands.

@ Waaaghpower: He doesn't have models of the same size, what he'll undoubtedly do is try borrow models from other people if that's the course we take.

@Jihadnik: Yeah...

@JinxDragon: That's part of the problem; the people in the group won't be able to reach a unanimous consensus, and doing a majority ruling always leaves some of us uncomfortably grumpy.

If he doesn't have enough standard infantry models (And heck, even Space Marine players usually have at least 50-60 lying around,) I say you're completely justified in putting your foot down. If he can't provide even vaguely shaped models of his own, that's his own fault.
Rules being as they are, 40k is practically a cinematic game. Either embrace cinematics or go home. (By which I mean, badass looking armies are more fun to play with and against. Taking off a half dozen pro painted Marines or a swath of finished Ork Boys is far more satisfying than removing 15 nickels that were standing in as gants.)

I kinda agree with waaagh power. If he can at least make the the base size it may not be a big deal. Since anywhere from 2-100 can be spawned. Or at least I wouldn't care too much in friendly games. Heck even guard or cultist could work with the brainwashing and genestealsers gene control thing they do (at least I think that).

In any other type of officle game or tournament I would say absolutely not.

One question I have tho is what other models does he have? If it's a entire marine army I would tell him look, we all (in this game) have actual models of our army, why don't you play said army you have. At least that's my thought.

See issue with this is that it had to be "nipped in the budd" a while ago. After a few years if he's comfortable with proxing and no one has said anything it's hard to break old habits. But now it's been so long that if people tell him things like this won't work anymore he may just rage quit.

Again my thoughts.

The same % of allowable proxies as everyone else in similar circumstances. If there is someone else who proxies most of an army, then don't pick on the one guy because of that passage in the codex. If your fine with him proxying most of his army, but not spawned Termagaunts, it's pretty obvious why.

Before making a hard ruling, try just talking to him first.


[Edit] For a upcoming event you've probably missed the boat now. If you agree he can't proxy, you should give him reasonable time to get the models.

If he already plays nids for a few years he should yust get the models.
Proxies should be for newer players and trying out different things. Not as a permanent answer.

Incidentally if you are buying a bucket o' gaunts. The £6 for 5 is way cheaper (£1.20 per model) than the 12 for £18 (£1.50 per model).

They don't come with the extra weapon options but a plus side of that is they are way easier/faster to assemble (they are literally 2 piece models).

wtnind wrote:
Incidentally if you are buying a bucket o' gaunts. The £6 for 5 is way cheaper (£1.20 per model) than the 12 for £18 (£1.50 per model).

They don't come with the extra weapon options but a plus side of that is they are way easier/faster to assemble (they are literally 2 piece models).

No problem there, since gants spawned by the tervigon can only ever come with flesh-borers.

A few years is more than enough time under any normal circumstances.
are there any circumstances that might stop him? I mean, does he have multiple kids, min wage job? anything of that nature which would cause his circumstances in gaming? If so, i would have no problem because my own kids would come first before my gaming as well.

Yes, I agree, you have likely missed the boat on this event.

Maybe point him in the direction of the nearest bargain bins or trade/discount sites. if he is a good guy that you guys consider a friend, maybe hook him up with some older models you have laying around and just never use.

If he has no excuses, Maybe set a time frame and a goal, "ok, 6 months to get 75% of your army'. .

He doesn't have any other models he could proxy, appropriately sized or not, 'Nids is his only "army". He tends to use cardboard circles and other people's marines etc.

From what I remember last time I saw him he's got a flyrant, the doom/a zoanthrope, and the ~20 gants. Unless he picked up a pile of models in the last month, that's it.

@Nem: He's the only guy who proxies this much this often. The reason I'm not trying to reason with him face to face before talking to the online community is because he's the WAAC TFG in our meta. I'm liable to lose patience quickly, and I want this to be dealt with diplomatically. Not with my nerd-rage-face on.

Yes this is soon for an upcoming event, but he's had oodles of time to collect an army. No circumstances against him, he has no dependents and makes better cash than I do. I wouldn't have issue with that for a second if kids or whatnot were the case, but even the students in the group have managed to scrounge together nearly complete armies in same time frame.

I'm trying to get an unbiased outside opinion on how to deal with this, because myself & some of the others in the group are having issues with his lack of sportsmanship, effort and commitment to the hobby.
Of course some people are going to invest more in the hobby than others, but the dude in question isn't even trying. And that's what bothers us.

We appreciate everyone's input thus far!

I own a "Proxy army" if you would call it that. It's Tyranids with a heavy Genestealer Cult element built in and even some renegade Space Marines, and I know a guy who built a Necron army out of his old Tomb Kings. That kind of proxying is fine with me.

As far as cardboard discs and borrowing models? For trying out rules only. If he can't cough up any actual models after I while I say shut it down.

Tell him to make some sprue-gaunts.

You have more issues with him that the proxying, as you just said. As others have said, you should have addressed the lack of models awhile ago.

Instead of looking for validation from random people on the internet, who have 0 relevance to your life, you should be talking to those you play with. If you go do something and say "but the internet told me it was okay!" you're not going to have anyone care. Because the internet is not them. You need to go talk to them, and him, if it's bugging you, or find another group. We really can't help you. "The internet says this is the solution" does nothing but hurt feelings and fracture your community. Going and saying "this is really bugging us, lets all sit down and come up with a viable and fair solution" will allow you to at least try to salvage the situation, it's conflict management 101.

Alternatively, refuse to play him.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
He doesn't have any other models he could proxy, appropriately sized or not, 'Nids is his only "army". He tends to use cardboard circles and other people's marines etc.

From what I remember last time I saw him he's got a flyrant, the doom/a zoanthrope, and the ~20 gants. Unless he picked up a pile of models in the last month, that's it.

@Nem: He's the only guy who proxies this much this often. The reason I'm not trying to reason with him face to face before talking to the online community is because he's the WAAC TFG in our meta. I'm liable to lose patience quickly, and I want this to be dealt with diplomatically. Not with my nerd-rage-face on.

Yes this is soon for an upcoming event, but he's had oodles of time to collect an army. No circumstances against him, he has no dependents and makes better cash than I do. I wouldn't have issue with that for a second if kids or whatnot were the case, but even the students in the group have managed to scrounge together nearly complete armies in same time frame.

I'm trying to get an unbiased outside opinion on how to deal with this, because myself & some of the others in the group are having issues with his lack of sportsmanship, effort and commitment to the hobby.
Of course some people are going to invest more in the hobby than others, but the dude in question isn't even trying. And that's what bothers us.

We appreciate everyone's input thus far!

In this kind of situation, I think you're going to be best-served by going with the "it has to be a GW model of roughly appropriate size" as the limit to the number of things he can proxy. That establishes a baseline expectation, sounds fair, and prevents a bunch of bullgak coins, bits of wadded paper, beer caps, cigarette butts and bent stir-sticks being used as models. If he has, or can get, a bunch of TacMarines or IG troops, then that's fine. Of course, if he can't, then, as the rule states, he has spawned all he can spawn (until you drop pie-plates on some).

I've got issues with the player in question, yes. And troa you are correct in stating those have to be hashed out in person with the group.

But I should restate, my main question on here that I believe the internet community at large can help with is specifically how to deal with Tervigons spawning gants, and the player running out of models.

The rule says what it says. Would you let someone continue to spawn after rolling doubles? Or place within 1" of your models?

I don't think so.

I occasionally proxy models, even in tournaments, but only for units that do not have an official model (in my case, it's Warrior Acolytes with carapace armour and boltguns. I'm working on conversions, but it's expensive and difficult to find the right parts on bits sites.) When I do proxy a model, I ask my opponent if it is ok to do. I haven't had a problem so far, but my proxies are painted-and-based guardsmen with lasguns, so they're pretty similar and look good.

If someone wanted to play me using cardboard circles, I would allow it once, after a lengthy discussion of how we'd treat LoS. The next time he asked for a game, instead of playing I would hound him about why he doesn't have models.

An easy way to overcome this difficulty with this player? Make a tournament house rule: the proxies must be on the same base as the official GW model; the profile of the model must be similar to the official GW model. My Marines proxies must be in Power Armour; my gant proxies will most likely have to he gants of some type, or Genestealers, or something else small and buggy. This will prevent him from using such crap at tourneys, and will also encourage him to get some real models so that he can play in said tourneys.
Don't ban proxies outright, since that might prevent cool models from other companies being used. But come down on this--I think it's unacceptable. The BLIND GUY who plays at my store has his models painted. BLIND. If he can do it (and yes, they're ugly, but still painted), then anyone can.

Well, 1 solution is to run your guys next League. Set up the game as a series of points escalation events. Start at 500 for a few games, then jump to 750 for a game, then 1000, 1250, and finally 1500 points. Give everyone (meaning the guy with years of proxy under his belt) a few weeks notice that while unpainted/primed units will be allowed, proxies (beyond any units with no official model) will not.
This will give everyone several weeks (several paydays) to at least buy the models and put them together in time for the points to jump up. Once the League is done, run 2 weeks of free gaming...
Then, run the next League in he same way (having given everyone a heads up weeks ago), except in this case the units being added must be painted to at least 3 color, table top standard.
At the end of 2-3 months everyone in your group should have a 1500 point core army painted with no proxies.
Then do it again escalating from 1500 to 1750 to 2000 points.

I think everyone agrees that purpose built conversions and counts as are cool. The thing about proxy in this specific case (termagants) is that yoi don't know how many you will need. Its a shame to alter the balance of a good game against your opponent just because he only brought 40 gaunts and he spawn rolls come up great leaving him short. I'd happily let him use horrmagaunts, 2 pence pieces or even buttons in this case because I wouldn't want to win simply because the opponent didn't bring the maximum number of possible spawned gaunts. Same deal with tomb spiders and scarabs.

The thing most people object to is when its large scale proxying and of units that are from the outset in your list (rather than randomly spawned). And then only if the proxy is showing a lack of commitment to the visual aesthetic of the game (e.g. cardboard cuttouts etc)

Part of the fun for me (and I'm sure others) is seeing a 2 cool looking armies getting into it!

Typically, WAAC types of guys in my experience are ones who are sticklers for the rules.

Just be a stickler. If people get grumpy about it, let them. If you never put the foot down, he'll never bother trying.

Turn the tables. Next time you have a game against this person proxy everything, even if you actually have the right models in your collection (say you "left them at home"). When he questions it, repeat parrot-fashion any argument he's ever made. Even better if you can get others in the group to do the same.

I would be fine with it if it was only the occasional proxy. But almost his entire army for years? Im sorry mate but no, get the right models. Its not like he hasn't had the time. Sometimes you just have to put your foot down, since this guy just seems to have been lazily coasting and not particularly caring.

I was spectating a game once at our local GW store where a friendly local was facing someone who coincidentally played tyranids too. He knew how to play, but he was so absolutely uninterested in anything about the game (Not paying attention, wandering off, playing with his phone) It got me silently furious.

Tl;Dr Don't let the lazy people get away with it

This sounds more like a proxy problem than a Tervigon problem. IE if a guy had a whole tyranid army and suddenly ran out of gaunst I would say proxy away.

If he's been playing with cardboard cut-outs for 2 years I would say go away.

General proxy rules...
No more than 1 unit, vehicle, or MC at a time unless you've been playing for less than 6 months.
Proxies must be a suitable model.

No empty bases with the exception if the person went through the trouble of actually making a standup cut-out of the model he was proxying, and put it on a base I would be ok.

That tends to weed out the lazy/cheap gamers who just want to play and don't care anything about modelling. If they like cardboard there are plenty of CCG's out there for them to play.

Isn't it like $45 bucks to get 20 Termagaunts right now full MSRP direct from Games Workshop?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440297a&prodId=prod2340102a

I hardly think $2.20 a model is outrageous. There's really no excuse to be short 20 gaunt models especially if a guy's been playing for years.

Best deal on termagants for spawning is the 5 man snap-fit pack. $2 a model MSRP, mono pose and no options, but if you are just trying to fill out enough gants for spawning, who cares?. The normal termagants are pretty monopose anyway. I bought these at a 3-1 ratio with regular termagant boxes in 5th edition, and it works great.

That's just it. 50 gants for around a hundred bucks? Split a swarm box, use ebay to get them even cheaper, whatever - but there is no excuse whatsoever to not have the proper models.

It ruins my immersion! [/whiny geek]

I don't see how it matters. It doesn't affect your armies or the game state in any way as long as he's using the appropriate bases...