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 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes or no: Are there abilities that you would agree can re-roll Blast scatter other than Twin Linked?
If so, please cite one.

Yes: Prescience.

Then you've defeated your own argument.
Prescience:

Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

It is literally not possible to fail a To Hit roll according to the Blast rules, so Prescience cannot be used to re-roll it, using your argument.

Thank you for discussing, I'm sorry your argument was proven incorrect.

Personally,
I still like the interpenetration that both parts of this sentence are restrictions that must be obeyed, instead of being a restriction and permission rolled into one sentence.

That interpenetration would render almost all of the 'strange circumstance' re-roll Rules, such as re-rolling on 1's, as invalid for the purpose of evoking Blast Marker Re-roll Rules. It would only be the Special Rules or Psychic Powers which contain words like 'may re-roll' or 'can re-roll' as valid choices for the Blast Marker Re-rolls. It also explains why Twin Linked has it's own Rule for doing the exact same thing, because it would need something to get around the fact it contains 'must re-roll' and doesn't actually give any choice in the matter. I haven't been looking to create a list of Special Rules and Psychic Powers that would be allowed, compared to those denied, so I don't know the logical extent of that conclusion but it does seem to create less issues on a casual glance.

There are still some strange things, Ammo Runts for example, so it isn't perfect....

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes or no: Are there abilities that you would agree can re-roll Blast scatter other than Twin Linked?
If so, please cite one.

Yes: Prescience.

So why the distinction between all failed to hit (prescience) and Reroll failed to hit rolls of 1? The actual written rules make no such distinction relevant.

As Rigeld pointed out, you defeated your own argument. Nice one

rigeld2 wrote:

Prescience:

Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

It is literally not possible to fail a To Hit roll according to the Blast rules, so Prescience cannot be used to re-roll it, using your argument.

Thank you for discussing, I'm sorry your argument was proven incorrect.

I assume you have in mind the rule earlier on pg 33:

When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit

Yet actually the entire rule rests on re-rolling rolls To Hit for blast weapons:

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon

You are actually choosing to re-roll the roll To Hit for the blast weapon.

In summary, blasts weapons do not roll To Hit, but you can re-roll the roll To Hit for a blast weapon.

How do people make sense of this apparent contradiction?

Because you have invented it?

Reread the pertinent rule: note it states has the ability to; this means you do not have to acutally be rolling to-hit, just have the ability to reroll your to-hit, and then you qualify to reroll your scatter.

Failure to read the phrase "ability to" is likely the cause of most confusion on this topic. It isnt saying youa re performing the to hit, just IF you were rolling to hit, would you be able to reroll.

joshau-k wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Prescience:

Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

It is literally not possible to fail a To Hit roll according to the Blast rules, so Prescience cannot be used to re-roll it, using your argument.

Thank you for discussing, I'm sorry your argument was proven incorrect.

I assume you have in mind the rule earlier on pg 33:

When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit

Yet actually the entire rule rests on re-rolling rolls To Hit for blast weapons:

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon

You are actually choosing to re-roll the roll To Hit for the blast weapon.

In summary, blasts weapons do not roll To Hit, but you can re-roll the roll To Hit for a blast weapon.

How do people make sense of this apparent contradiction?

It's not a contradiction at all.
If you have an ability that is similar - but does not apply to Blasts, you can do this other thing instead.

joshau-k wrote:
Yet actually the entire rule rests on re-rolling rolls To Hit for blast weapons:

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon

Very relevant, the ability to "re-roll its rolls To Hit".
2D6 + scatter dice is "its rolls To Hit" and that roll cannot roll 1. Or quote a rule that does.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So why the distinction between all failed to hit (prescience) and Reroll failed to hit rolls of 1? The actual written rules make no such distinction relevant.
As Rigeld pointed out, you defeated your own argument. Nice one

rigeld2 wrote:
Then you've defeated your own argument.
Prescience:

Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

It is literally not possible to fail a To Hit roll according to the Blast rules, so Prescience cannot be used to re-roll it, using your argument.

Thank you for discussing, I'm sorry your argument was proven incorrect.

Nope on both: Read Twin linked. Then tell me you can't "Fail to Hit"

As for the distinction? prescience is "re-roll all failed To Hit rolls", PE is "re-rolls failed To Hit rolls of 1"

"All" and "1" are very different measures of quantity, or is that not clear enough?

 BlackTalos wrote:


Nope on both: Read Twin linked. Then tell me you can't "Fail to Hit"

As for the distinction? prescience is "re-roll all failed To Hit rolls", PE is "re-rolls failed To Hit rolls of 1"

"All" and "1" are very different measures of quantity, or is that not clear enough?

Except "All failed" and "Rolls of 1" are both restrictions. In both cases you are not allowed to reroll all of your to hit dice. Dont quote half a rule - the rule says reroll "all failed" not "All" how you suggested.

 BlackTalos wrote:

joshau-k wrote:
Yet actually the entire rule rests on re-rolling rolls To Hit for blast weapons:

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon

Very relevant, the ability to "re-roll its rolls To Hit".
2D6 + scatter dice is "its rolls To Hit" and that roll cannot roll 1. Or quote a rule that does.

Absolutely false. Blast weapons never, ever, roll To Hit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So why the distinction between all failed to hit (prescience) and Reroll failed to hit rolls of 1? The actual written rules make no such distinction relevant.
As Rigeld pointed out, you defeated your own argument. Nice one

rigeld2 wrote:
Then you've defeated your own argument.
Prescience:

Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

It is literally not possible to fail a To Hit roll according to the Blast rules, so Prescience cannot be used to re-roll it, using your argument.

Thank you for discussing, I'm sorry your argument was proven incorrect.

Nope on both: Read Twin linked. Then tell me you can't "Fail to Hit"

Except that's what what the rule requires. You're making things up.
Twin Linked allows a reroll if you do not Roll a Hit with the scatter dice.
Prescience allows a reroll if you fail a To Hit roll.

p33 wrote:When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.

If you do not roll, you can not fail. Prescience cannot ever apply.

Please argue your point using actual rules, not something you're making up.

As for the distinction? prescience is "re-roll all failed To Hit rolls", PE is "re-rolls failed To Hit rolls of 1"

"All" and "1" are very different measures of quantity, or is that not clear enough?

They are different.
Now, cite the rule that makes that difference relevant in this case. Or are you making up more rules?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

joshau-k wrote:
Yet actually the entire rule rests on re-rolling rolls To Hit for blast weapons:

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon

Very relevant, the ability to "re-roll its rolls To Hit".
2D6 + scatter dice is "its rolls To Hit" and that roll cannot roll 1. Or quote a rule that does.

Absolutely false. Blast weapons never, ever, roll To Hit.

Blast Rules: "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" Will never ever apply then. Talk about defeating arguments...

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So why the distinction between all failed to hit (prescience) and Reroll failed to hit rolls of 1? The actual written rules make no such distinction relevant.
As Rigeld pointed out, you defeated your own argument. Nice one

rigeld2 wrote:
Then you've defeated your own argument.
Prescience:

Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

It is literally not possible to fail a To Hit roll according to the Blast rules, so Prescience cannot be used to re-roll it, using your argument.

Thank you for discussing, I'm sorry your argument was proven incorrect.

Nope on both: Read Twin linked. Then tell me you can't "Fail to Hit"

Except that's what what the rule requires. You're making things up.
Twin Linked allows a reroll if you do not Roll a Hit with the scatter dice.
Prescience allows a reroll if you fail a To Hit roll.

p33 wrote:When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.

If you do not roll, you can not fail. Prescience cannot ever apply.

Please argue your point using actual rules, not something you're making up.

Again, just proving it yourself. (Red emphasis)

rigeld2 wrote:

As for the distinction? prescience is "re-roll all failed To Hit rolls", PE is "re-rolls failed To Hit rolls of 1"

"All" and "1" are very different measures of quantity, or is that not clear enough?

They are different.
Now, cite the rule that makes that difference relevant in this case. Or are you making up more rules?

You like the words "making up rules" and use it as your ultimate defence when RaW is quoted but you don't agree to it.

The two above are different, we agree. Why do you apply them in the same way then?
Failed To Hit rolls of 1 =/= All failed To Hit rolls
A dice roll of a 2 is within one but not the other.
A 2D6 roll+scatter is within one but not the other.

And if you decide that:
"if you do not Roll a Hit with the scatter dice."(your words, TL)
"if you fail a To Hit roll. "
Are two very different things (because this is the core of your argument).
Then the blast Rule that says, per RaW: "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" will never apply. That would be how you read the rules and that's fine, as YOUR interpretation.
And apart from having TL you will never Re-roll Blast weapons. I will because "not rolling a Hit" and "fail to Hit" are the exact same things...

I'm having flash backs to other discussions on this forum...

ok, nice and easy this one.

please point to the rule, in it's entirety, that actually states that the re-roll that a model has NEEDS to the be an all encompasing re-roll.

as far as I can see the RAW only asks that the model has the capacity to re-roll a to hit dice.

it does not stipulate that the re-roll needs to be for al the dice, or just those that have certain value requirements, it just asks does the model have the capacity to re-roll the dice.

a re-roll of results of a 1 is still a re-roll
a re-roll of all failed to hit is still a re-roll

for the purposes of the rule, it doesn't care about the triggering factor for the re-roll, it only cares that you 'could' re-roll.

this is not a difficult concept.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

joshau-k wrote:
Yet actually the entire rule rests on re-rolling rolls To Hit for blast weapons:

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon

Very relevant, the ability to "re-roll its rolls To Hit".
2D6 + scatter dice is "its rolls To Hit" and that roll cannot roll 1. Or quote a rule that does.

Absolutely false. Blast weapons never, ever, roll To Hit.

Blast Rules: "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" Will never ever apply then. Talk about defeating arguments...

You do realize that the model can have the ability to reroll its To Hit separate from a Blast, right?

Twin Linked allows a reroll if you do not Roll a Hit with the scatter dice.
Prescience allows a reroll if you fail a To Hit roll.

p33 wrote:When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.

If you do not roll, you can not fail. Prescience cannot ever apply.

Please argue your point using actual rules, not something you're making up.

Again, just proving it yourself. (Red emphasis)

Not rolling a hit != failing a To Hit roll. I'm surprised you don't understand that. It's pretty basic.

You like the words "making up rules" and use it as your ultimate defence when RaW is quoted but you don't agree to it.

You haven't quoted RAW. You asserted that failing to roll a Hit on the scatter die is equivalent to failing a To Hit roll. That's the definition of making up rules.

The two above are different, we agree. Why do you apply them in the same way then?
Failed To Hit rolls of 1 =/= All failed To Hit rolls

Because the rule in question doesn't make the distinction you're asserting exists.

A 2D6 roll+scatter is within one but not the other.

Demonstrably false.

And if you decide that:
"if you do not Roll a Hit with the scatter dice."(your words, TL)
"if you fail a To Hit roll. "
Are two very different things (because this is the core of your argument).
Then the blast Rule that says, per RaW: "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" will never apply. That would be how you read the rules and that's fine, as YOUR interpretation.
And apart from having TL you will never Re-roll Blast weapons. I will because "not rolling a Hit" and "fail to Hit" are the exact same things...

No, they are not. Holy crap - you actually believe that.

Blast weapons do not roll To Hit. Ever. It's in the rule - I quoted it and it's on page 33.
A To Hit roll is a specific action, defined by the rules. You can have the ability to reroll a failed To Hit roll without actually rerolling it.
Failing to roll a Hit on the scatter dice has literally nothing to do with a To Hit roll. You have yet to, and won't be able to, cite any rules showing your statements are correct.
Again, making up rules. Instead of making things up or telling me I'm wrong PROVE IT. Cite a rule showing that they're the same. I've proven my statements using rules.

BlackTalos wrote:
As for the distinction? prescience is "re-roll all failed To Hit rolls", PE is "re-rolls failed To Hit rolls of 1"

"All" and "1" are very different measures of quantity, or is that not clear enough?

Apart from your deceptive out of context quoting, noone has said they are not different.

What we are asking you to do is to ----->prove<------ that this distinction actually matters.
As we know, you are only required to have the ability to reroll to hit., you do not need to have any specific "level" of ability (i.e. it does not say "you must have the ability to reroll all failed rolls to hit, as it is a totally unrestricted sentence Note: the bolded words are important, as you seem to have a basic comprehension issue at play.
THe rule, at no point, states "you must be able to reroll your scatter dice", as that would be a tautology - you can reroll scaltter if you can reroll scatter

Instead you are asked: can you reroll your to-hit dice [implicitly: when firing a weapon which requires a roll to hit - denying this is impossible]?

If you answer yes - then you reroll scatter

Nowhere in the rule are you asked to prove how well you can reroll - all failed, all rolls of a 1, all rolls of a 3 every second sunday - just CAN YOU EVER, iN ANY WAY, EVER, reroll your to hit.

Once you meet this criteria, you are allowed to reroll scattrer

Proven, RAW. You have failed to cite a single relevant rule, and seem to have a very basic misunderstanding of the English language.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
it does not stipulate that the re-roll needs to be for al the dice, or just those that have certain value requirements, it just asks does the model have the capacity to re-roll the dice.

a re-roll of results of a 1 is still a re-roll
a re-roll of all failed to hit is still a re-roll

Fully agree on all those points but "capacity" and "ability" are 2 very different words. And the model only gets the ability when it triggers, even if they all have the capacity.
Otherwise we're back to "PE" can reroll blast against anything whatsoever, and that is broken, RaI or RaW.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
it does not stipulate that the re-roll needs to be for al the dice, or just those that have certain value requirements, it just asks does the model have the capacity to re-roll the dice.

a re-roll of results of a 1 is still a re-roll
a re-roll of all failed to hit is still a re-roll

Fully agree on all those points but "capacity" and "ability" are 2 very different words. And the model only gets the ability when it triggers, even if they all have the capacity.
Otherwise we're back to "PE" can reroll blast against anything whatsoever, and that is broken, RaI or RaW.

You claim RAW but you don't cite anything to disprove it.
That's amusing.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
it does not stipulate that the re-roll needs to be for al the dice, or just those that have certain value requirements, it just asks does the model have the capacity to re-roll the dice.

a re-roll of results of a 1 is still a re-roll
a re-roll of all failed to hit is still a re-roll

Fully agree on all those points but "capacity" and "ability" are 2 very different words. And the model only gets the ability when it triggers, even if they all have the capacity.
Otherwise we're back to "PE" can reroll blast against anything whatsoever, and that is broken, RaI or RaW.

no it doesn't.

prefered enemy only grants it capacity for a re-roll agasint the target of which the enemy is prefered.

so prefered enemy orks, for example, when shooting at orks you have the capcity for a reroll, but when shooting at tau you do not have the capacity for a reroll.

THAT is the distiction.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

BlackTalos wrote:
As for the distinction? prescience is "re-roll all failed To Hit rolls", PE is "re-rolls failed To Hit rolls of 1"

"All" and "1" are very different measures of quantity, or is that not clear enough?

Apart from your deceptive out of context quoting, noone has said they are not different.

What we are asking you to do is to ----->prove<------ that this distinction actually matters.
As we know, you are only required to have the ability to reroll to hit., you do not need to have any specific "level" of ability (i.e. it does not say "you must have the ability to reroll all failed rolls to hit, as it is a totally unrestricted sentence Note: the bolded words are important, as you seem to have a basic comprehension issue at play.
THe rule, at no point, states "you must be able to reroll your scatter dice", as that would be a tautology - you can reroll scaltter if you can reroll scatter

Instead you are asked: can you reroll your to-hit dice [implicitly: when firing a weapon which requires a roll to hit - denying this is impossible]?

If you answer yes - then you reroll scatter

Nowhere in the rule are you asked to prove how well you can reroll - all failed, all rolls of a 1, all rolls of a 3 every second sunday - just CAN YOU EVER, iN ANY WAY, EVER, reroll your to hit.

Once you meet this criteria, you are allowed to reroll scattrer

Proven, RAW. You have failed to cite a single relevant rule, and seem to have a very basic misunderstanding of the English language.

I like how you always turn things around, and the Void shield thread that made it quite clear that basic English was a problem for many Forum lurkers and will always be the case...
However back to the point at hand:
the abilityto reroll, adequately bolded by you, is not inherent in all models. You only receive said ability upon requirements, as per RaW:
"Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls." for prescience
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy." for PE

The ability to re-roll for A is: Power in effect; failed To Hit roll
B is: failed To Hit rolls of 1; attacking PE.

Or would you insist you always have the ability?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
it does not stipulate that the re-roll needs to be for al the dice, or just those that have certain value requirements, it just asks does the model have the capacity to re-roll the dice.

a re-roll of results of a 1 is still a re-roll
a re-roll of all failed to hit is still a re-roll

Fully agree on all those points but "capacity" and "ability" are 2 very different words. And the model only gets the ability when it triggers, even if they all have the capacity.
Otherwise we're back to "PE" can reroll blast against anything whatsoever, and that is broken, RaI or RaW.

Hate to break it to you but Ability and Capacity are synonyms and fully interchangeable.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
it does not stipulate that the re-roll needs to be for al the dice, or just those that have certain value requirements, it just asks does the model have the capacity to re-roll the dice.

a re-roll of results of a 1 is still a re-roll
a re-roll of all failed to hit is still a re-roll

Fully agree on all those points but "capacity" and "ability" are 2 very different words. And the model only gets the ability when it triggers, even if they all have the capacity.
Otherwise we're back to "PE" can reroll blast against anything whatsoever, and that is broken, RaI or RaW.

no it doesn't.

prefered enemy only grants it capacity for a re-roll agasint the target of which the enemy is prefered.

so prefered enemy orks, for example, when shooting at orks you have the capcity for a reroll, but when shooting at tau you do not have the capacity for a reroll.

THAT is the distiction.

prefered enemy only grants it capacity for a re-roll agasint the target of which the enemy is prefered.
Yes, but the rule is missing a bit:
prefered enemy only grants it capacity for a re-roll when a 1 is rolled.

Or is half the rule just ignored?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rorschach9 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
it does not stipulate that the re-roll needs to be for al the dice, or just those that have certain value requirements, it just asks does the model have the capacity to re-roll the dice.

a re-roll of results of a 1 is still a re-roll
a re-roll of all failed to hit is still a re-roll

Fully agree on all those points but "capacity" and "ability" are 2 very different words. And the model only gets the ability when it triggers, even if they all have the capacity.
Otherwise we're back to "PE" can reroll blast against anything whatsoever, and that is broken, RaI or RaW.

Hate to break it to you but Ability and Capacity are synonyms and fully interchangeable.

Back to English Definitions it is (and a tenet of the forum about dictionaries):

Capacity:
actual or potential ability to perform, yield, or withstand

Bolded where it makes them different. Slightly but importantly different

 BlackTalos wrote:
Bolded where it makes them different. Slightly but importantly different

And you're ignoring the fact that Prescience (the ability you said works while PE doesn't) also has a conditional. Meaning a model with Prescience doesn't have the ability, they have the capactiy.
Actual rules ahoy!

rigeld2 wrote:

No, they are not. Holy crap - you actually believe that.

Blast weapons do not roll To Hit. Ever. It's in the rule - I quoted it and it's on page 33.
A To Hit roll is a specific action, defined by the rules. You can have the ability to reroll a failed To Hit roll without actually rerolling it.
Failing to roll a Hit on the scatter dice has literally nothing to do with a To Hit roll. You have yet to, and won't be able to, cite any rules showing your statements are correct.
Again, making up rules. Instead of making things up or telling me I'm wrong PROVE IT. Cite a rule showing that they're the same. I've proven my statements using rules.

Please stay civil and avoid swearing because you are getting all flustered...

If you read the post correctly:

And if you decide that:
"if you do not Roll a Hit with the scatter dice."(your words, TL)
"if you fail a To Hit roll. "
Are two very different things (because this is the core of your argument).
Then the blast Rule that says, per RaW: "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" will never apply. That would be how you read the rules and that's fine, as YOUR interpretation.

There is no RaW that says "If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit" is the same as "you must re-roll the dice To Hit if you miss".
There is your interpretation that they are different and there is my interpretation that they are the same.
Why do I interpret it that way? Because they are the 2 statements on how the same Special Rule (TL) applies on the weapons.
Why do you interpret it that way?

Cite a rule showing that they're not the same.

 BlackTalos wrote:

prefered enemy only grants it capacity for a re-roll agasint the target of which the enemy is prefered.
Yes, but the rule is missing a bit:
prefered enemy only grants it capacity for a re-roll when a 1 is rolled.

Or is half the rule just ignored?

no, only that the roll of a 1 is not a requirement to have the capacity for a re-roll.

again, does the model have the capacity for a re-roll? answer is yes, while the condition for that reroll is rolling a 1, it has the capacity to reroll the to hit dice.

does the blast weapon re-roll rule care what the trigger for the reroll is? answer is no, it only cares that you ever could re-roll the dice.

why you, and obviously half the people that visitied this thread to vote, are making a disticintion between the rerolls I do not know.

all I know is, I have no dog in this fight, and the rule only ever asks if you could re-roll, it does not specify that this reroll must be all encompassing so therefore it is satisfied with a reroll of any sort.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Bolded where it makes them different. Slightly but importantly different

And you're ignoring the fact that Prescience (the ability you said works while PE doesn't) also has a conditional. Meaning a model with Prescience doesn't have the ability, they have the capactiy.
Actual rules ahoy!

Irrelevant completely... This was in reply of the definition of 2 words.

I'm not ignoring anything. Prescience has 2 conditionals, and when you check both, you get the ability. I miss you point with that statement, or have you decided to Troll today?

 BlackTalos wrote:
There is no RaW that says "If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit" is the same as "you must re-roll the dice To Hit if you miss".

Correct - because they aren't the same.

Why do I interpret it that way? Because they are the 2 statements on how the same Special Rule (TL) applies on the weapons.

The reason it has to state it that way is because they're two different things. If they were the same the paragraph wouldn't be required.

Cite a rule showing that they're not the same.

p13 wrote:The dice roll needed To Hit will depend on how accurate the firers are, as shown by their Ballistic Skill (or BS). The chart below shows the minimum D6 roll needed to score a hit.

Is the Scatter dice a d6 that you roll to score based on your BS?

p13 wrote:When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses (or, at the very least will need re-rolling - see below).

So if you roll a 1 on either die showing the distance to scatter, you always miss?

p33 wrote:When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.

If you do not roll To Hit, then failing to roll a Hit on the scatter dice is not a failed To Hit roll.

Given the evidence that I've cited now and previously in the thread, the burden of proof is on you to prove your "interpretation" has some basis in the rules instead of you just making something up. Please at least attempt to do so citing rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Bolded where it makes them different. Slightly but importantly different

And you're ignoring the fact that Prescience (the ability you said works while PE doesn't) also has a conditional. Meaning a model with Prescience doesn't have the ability, they have the capactiy.
Actual rules ahoy!

Irrelevant completely... This was in reply of the definition of 2 words.

I'm not ignoring anything. Prescience has 2 conditionals, and when you check both, you get the ability. I miss you point with that statement, or have you decided to Troll today?

So for the purposes of your argument, conditionals are okay as long as they're met? I just want to clarify.

rigeld2 wrote:

Cite a rule showing that they're not the same.

p13 wrote:The dice roll needed To Hit will depend on how accurate the firers are, as shown by their Ballistic Skill (or BS). The chart below shows the minimum D6 roll needed to score a hit.

Is the Scatter dice a d6 that you roll to score based on your BS?

p13 wrote:When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses (or, at the very least will need re-rolling - see below).

So if you roll a 1 on the distance to scatter, you always miss?

p33 wrote:When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.

If you do not roll To Hit, then failing to roll a Hit on the scatter dice is not a failed To Hit roll.

Given the evidence that I've cited now and previously in the thread, the burden of proof is on you to prove your "interpretation" has some basis in the rules instead of you just making something up. Please at least attempt to do so citing rules.

RaW on how to hit and how to fire a Blast weapon, i know them too...

Nothing in those rules says a missed To Hit is different to a scatter that does not Hit. Both have not Hit.
I'm not saying that it's the same dice Roll. One is 1 dice, the other is 2D6+scatter dice.
Both can still *not Hit*, making both statements the exact same thing....

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Bolded where it makes them different. Slightly but importantly different

And you're ignoring the fact that Prescience (the ability you said works while PE doesn't) also has a conditional. Meaning a model with Prescience doesn't have the ability, they have the capactiy.
Actual rules ahoy!

Irrelevant completely... This was in reply of the definition of 2 words.

I'm not ignoring anything. Prescience has 2 conditionals, and when you check both, you get the ability. I miss you point with that statement, or have you decided to Troll today?

So for the purposes of your argument, conditionals are okay as long as they're met? I just want to clarify.

Both must be met for the ability to exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or please quote the rule(s) that will show that not rolling a Hit on a scatter and failing a roll To Hit are very different things?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Nothing in those rules says a missed To Hit is different to a scatter that does not Hit. Both have not Hit.
I'm not saying that it's the same dice Roll. One is 1 dice, the other is 2D6+scatter dice.
Both can still *not Hit*, making both statement the exact same thing....

Prescience does not ask if you hit. Prescience asks if you failed a To Hit roll (with the caps and everything).
Since a Blast roll is demonstrably not a To Hit roll it cannot fulfill the requirement for Prescience. Again, actual rules ahoy and none cited on your side.

Prescience wrote:Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Bolded what you keep missing.

Both must be met for the ability to exist.

And Prescience does not meet its requirement, so the ability does not exist. Thanks for playing!


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 BlackTalos wrote:
Or please quote the rule(s) that will show that not rolling a Hit on a scatter and failing a roll To Hit are very different things?

I have.
I've shown where a To Hit roll is defined.
You cannot roll a Scatter die and get a result of 1-6 to compare to your BS, so a Scatter roll can never be a To Hit roll.

Failing to Hit on a Scatter roll is not the same as failing a To Hit roll. Demonstrable fact, proven with rules citations.
Failing to Hit on a Scatter roll is the same as failing a To Hit roll. Absolutely false, made up to pretend you can win an argument.

Have some rules to cite to support your viewpoint?

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Rorschach9 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
it does not stipulate that the re-roll needs to be for al the dice, or just those that have certain value requirements, it just asks does the model have the capacity to re-roll the dice.

a re-roll of results of a 1 is still a re-roll
a re-roll of all failed to hit is still a re-roll

Fully agree on all those points but "capacity" and "ability" are 2 very different words. And the model only gets the ability when it triggers, even if they all have the capacity.
Otherwise we're back to "PE" can reroll blast against anything whatsoever, and that is broken, RaI or RaW.

Hate to break it to you but Ability and Capacity are synonyms and fully interchangeable.

Back to English Definitions it is (and a tenet of the forum about dictionaries):

Capacity:
actual or potential ability to perform, yield, or withstand

Bolded where it makes them different. Slightly but importantly different

Rorschach9 wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
it does not stipulate that the re-roll needs to be for al the dice, or just those that have certain value requirements, it just asks does the model have the capacity to re-roll the dice.

a re-roll of results of a 1 is still a re-roll
a re-roll of all failed to hit is still a re-roll

Fully agree on all those points but "capacity" and "ability" are 2 very different words. And the model only gets the ability when it triggers, even if they all have the capacity.
Otherwise we're back to "PE" can reroll blast against anything whatsoever, and that is broken, RaI or RaW.

Hate to break it to you but Ability and Capacity are synonyms and fully interchangeable.

Back to English Definitions it is (and a tenet of the forum about dictionaries):

Capacity:
actual or potential ability to perform, yield, or withstand

Bolded where it makes them different. Slightly but importantly different

I am sorry, where did i bring up dictionary meanings in pointing out your mistake? Right, i xid not, you did and still failed to make your point.

Hate to break it to you but Ability and Capacity are synonyms and fully interchangeable.

Just replying to this, no making any point ;-)


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rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Nothing in those rules says a missed To Hit is different to a scatter that does not Hit. Both have not Hit.
I'm not saying that it's the same dice Roll. One is 1 dice, the other is 2D6+scatter dice.
Both can still *not Hit*, making both statement the exact same thing....

Prescience does not ask if you hit. Prescience asks if you failed a To Hit roll (with the caps and everything).
Since a Blast roll is demonstrably not a To Hit roll it cannot fulfill the requirement for Prescience. Again, actual rules ahoy and none cited on your side.

Prescience wrote:Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

Bolded what you keep missing.

Both must be met for the ability to exist.

And Prescience does not meet its requirement, so the ability does not exist. Thanks for playing!

that's why we are having the discussion where "failed To Hit" is the same as "If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit"
Until that one's done, and you still haven't proved it, it's interpretation and not going anywhere....

Best we steer any remaining argument down a different path than the one this is going heading down.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Just replying to this, no making any point ;-)

http://thesaurus.com/browse/ability
What's the 2nd from the top synonym on the left?

that's why we are having the discussion where "failed To Hit" is the same as "If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit"
Until that one's done, and you still haven't proved it, it's interpretation and not going anywhere....

So would you care to actually, I don't know, address my rules quotes that prove your statement that they're the same wrong?