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Can a Destroyer Lord join a Sentry Pylon - giving it preferred enemy (Everything!) ?

I couldn't find anything in their own special rules or in the Artillery rules that would prevent it.

It will change a few things about their Canoptek artillery special rule though (not being locked in CC, 4" coherency. ...)

How do you think it affects the 4" coherency thing?

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
I couldn't find anything in their own special rules or in the Artillery rules that would prevent it.

What is its unit composition? Because if its always a single model...

 Ghaz wrote:

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
I couldn't find anything in their own special rules or in the Artillery rules that would prevent it.

What is its unit composition? Because if its always a single model...

The sentry pylon, from memory, is the small pylon that forms units, and is artillery with no crew

Yes, but is it possible to have multiple pylons in a singe FOC slot or just one? If its always a single model then an independent character shouldn't be able to join it.

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, but is it possible to have multiple pylons in a singe FOC slot or just one? If its always a single model then an independent character shouldn't be able to join it.

The former, hence the mention of their special rules on coherency

It is a unit of 1-3 forming a battery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kholzerino wrote:
How do you think it affects the 4" coherency thing?

Is the unit composed entirely of models with the Canoptek Artillery special rule?

Not if the Destroyer Lord joins them... The rules for Canoptek Artillery units say that "Canoptek Artillery that are charged do not fight in the ensuing combat" suggesting that perhaps other models that are in the unit do? Not sure. Confused.

Later it says "when forming a unit composed entirely of models with the Canoptek Artillery special rule, the maximum unit coherency distance for a unit of Canoptek Artillery is 4" "

This suggests that there are circumstances where the unit may be not entirely composed of these things...

It does say that, other than the exceptions within the Canoptek Artillery special rules, it follows the standard rules for Artillery types.

I don't have my BRB on me right now, so not sure if there is anything in those rules about non-Artillery models joining the unit..?

Having two with Gauss Exterminators with a D Lord joining it could be very good against Tau and Eldar depending on LoS...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So second, related question. How would the Death Ray version work in battery units? Obviously normally the models in a battery have to shot at the same unit, but in this version you pick a point and draw a line... Do the two models have to pick the same point on the battlefield?

Kholzerino wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So second, related question. How would the Death Ray version work in battery units? Obviously normally the models in a battery have to shot at the same unit, but in this version you pick a point and draw a line... Do the two models have to pick the same point on the battlefield?

How does it work on the Doomscythe? It's weapons are under the same restriction to shoot at the same target.

Doomscythes don't come in squadrons and they aren't turret mounted with a 360 rotation as the pylon is. The thing I'm wondering is how it works if you have two or three in a unit, which isn't a thing that can happen with the doomscythe...

If a weapons battery works like a Squadron, then p77 of the BRB is clear: "must target a single enemy unit".

However page 69 and Beams have their own targeting rules.

Each Death Ray would have to hit at least one model in the nominal target unit, IMO.

But neither DeathRay targets a unit. They select a point...

yes they select a point but strictly speaking you must still declare a target for the unit.

hiwpi: treat it a bit like a template weapon in that you must target the nominated unit and hit 'as much as possible'.

or

at least one hit must hit the nominated unit

I have quite a few questions for the Writers of these rules when it comes to alternative 'To Hit' methods that tell you to place something, draw a line or something similar. Some times the rule being used is quite well written and self-contained, such as the Template rule which informs us to cover as many of the targeted models as possible. Other times it is very vague, without any reference to the targeted unit or any instructions informing us how we must interact with them. By a pure Rule as Written perspective, because the new rule-set is over-writing the old we really can't use the existence of restrictions written into the body of the older rule-set to limit this behavior.

Doubtful this was the intent though, and luckily we can easily stop the 'that ******* guy feeling' by ensuring the line or template hit's the targeted unit in some fashion.

Kholzerino wrote:
But neither DeathRay targets a unit.

But the firing unit must still declare a target, and that target must be one hit by the Deathray. Adding a second Deathray changes neither of these conditions, so both Deathrays must hit the target unit. Other units can be hit, too, of course, and there's no "as many as possible" clause as per flame templates.

Why do you have to declare a "target unit". It doesn't say that in any of the rules for either Death Ray. It says "pick a point on the battlefield". The Ray starts at "a point on the battlefield" NOT on an enemy unit. It is a unique weapon.

Kholzerino wrote:
Why do you have to declare a "target unit". It doesn't say that in any of the rules for either Death Ray. It says "pick a point on the battlefield". The Ray starts at "a point on the battlefield" NOT on an enemy unit. It is a unique weapon.

yes it is a unique weapon, but it doesn't give you permission to not declare a target for the shooting of that weapon.

declaring a target is a part of the shooting phase and is the second step of the shooting sequence.

instead of rolling to hit, you are picking a point on the table and drawing an imaginary 1" straight line from one point to another and causing a single hit per model underneath this invisible line.

at no point does the death ray rule say that you do not declare a target for the shooting attack.

Kholzerino wrote:
Why do you have to declare a "target unit".

That's a fundamental condition of firing with a unit. You can't resolve any weapons fire until you've selected a target unit.

Kholzerino wrote:
It doesn't say that in any of the rules for either Death Ray.

The Deathray I'm familiar with states that any other weapons on the Doomscythe must fire at a unit struck by the Deathray. This is logically equivalent to stating that the Deathray must hit the target unit.

Pyrian wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
Why do you have to declare a "target unit".

That's a fundamental condition of firing with a unit. You can't resolve any weapons fire until you've selected a target unit.

Kholzerino wrote:
It doesn't say that in any of the rules for either Death Ray.

The Deathray I'm familiar with states that any other weapons on the Doomscythe must fire at a unit struck by the Deathray. This is logically equivalent to stating that the Deathray must hit the target unit.

But it states the order of events in the firing of the weapon and "nominating a target unit" isn't within that process.

But saying, for arguments sake, that the death ray on the sentry pylon does have to nominate a unit, would you then say that the second one can draw it's line anywhere but must include the same unit as the first gun?

Kholzerino wrote:
But it states the order of events in the firing of the weapon and "nominating a target unit" isn't within that process.

Firing a weapon is part of the shooting process, and the shooting process includes picking the unit firing, and a target unit. You don't anywhere near "firing a weapon" until after you've picked a firing unit and a target unit.

First you pick a unit to fire with.
Then you pick a valid target for that unit.
Then you roll to-hit with your weapons - IIRC the entirety of the special rules for the Deathray are replacing this one step for that weapon.
Then you roll to-wound.
Then you roll saves and remove casualties.

Kholzerino wrote:
But saying, for arguments sake, that the death ray on the sentry pylon does have to nominate a unit, would you then say that the second one can draw it's line anywhere but must include the same unit as the first gun?

Basically, yes. Each Deathray should hit at least one model from a single enemy unit. They don't have to start there, end there, it doesn't have to be the same model, they can hit other units, etc..

Well no. Because you don't select an enemy model. That step is replaced by "pick a point on the table".

And in fact this is backed up by the squadron issue for this weapon. Because the distance between the two points (which determine what units are hit) isn't determined until after you have picked a point on the table and rolled the dice.

You could roll three inch range or 18 inch range.

So the determining the second point, the drawing of the line and therefor the selecting of which models/units are hit doesnt take place till AFTER you have selected the point.

It's clear from the description of the firing of the gun that the stages are: pick a point on the battlefield, then roll 3d6, then pick a direction. So you can't declare a target unit until after you have rolled to hit.

The special rules of this gun overule the standard shooting rules of the game, starting from declaring the target of the shooting (nominate a point ANYWHERE on the battlefield - the only gun I know of which allows you to shoot where you could definitely not hit anything).

The fact that people don't LIKE how the gun messes with the standard rules just doesn't change the fact that it does.

I haven't been persuaded by anything anyone has said about this.

It definitely needs a faq though.

Kholzerino wrote:
Well no. Because you don't select an enemy model. That step is replaced by "pick a point on the table".

And in fact this is backed up by the squadron issue for this weapon. Because the distance between the two points (which determine what units are hit) isn't determined until after you have picked a point on the table and rolled the dice.

You could roll three inch range or 18 inch range.

So the determining the second point, the drawing of the line and therefor the selecting of which models/units are hit doesnt take place till AFTER you have selected the point.

It's clear from the description of the firing of the gun that the stages are: pick a point on the battlefield, then roll 3d6, then pick a direction. So you can't declare a target unit until after you have rolled to hit.

The special rules of this gun overule the standard shooting rules of the game, starting from declaring the target of the shooting (nominate a point ANYWHERE on the battlefield - the only gun I know of which allows you to shoot where you could definitely not hit anything).

The fact that people don't LIKE how the gun messes with the standard rules just doesn't change the fact that it does.

I haven't been persuaded by anything anyone has said about this.

It definitely needs a faq though.

The Pylon array still follows *The Shooting Sequence* found on page 12 of the RuleBook.

1. Nominate unit to shoot: your pylon.
2. Choose a target.
3. Roll to Hit.

Picking a point on the table is in 3. You still have to do 2. before you do 3.

No.

Because 2 is allowed to be "a point ANYWHERE on the battlefield" that is what you are aiming at.

You choose the direction of the beam AFTER you roll the dice and hit how many units are under it (friendly or otherwise). But choosing a point anywhere on the battlefield is clearly instead of nominating a target.

BlackTalos wrote:The Pylon array still follows *The Shooting Sequence* found on page 12 of the RuleBook.

1. Nominate unit to shoot: your pylon.
2. Choose a target.
3. Roll to Hit.

Picking a point on the table is in 3. You still have to do 2. before you do 3.

This is incorrect. Using your sequence, picking a target is step 2 correct? and if that target is a point on the table (death ray special rules) and 'not' a unit (normal), how does any of the rest of what you've said follow any of the rules as written?

Have you got the exact rules for the beam in your codex? Could you quote them?

Beam in the rulebook says:"To use a witchfire power with the beam sub-type, target a point within the power's range and trace a line(...)"
Above that, witchfire: "if a Psyker targets a unit with witchfire, then he(...)

i know Pylons are not witchfire, so quote applicable rules if they make this different.

The Pylon rules seem to suggest that the initial selected point on the table is the "target".

That would suggest, then, that every other Pylon in the squadron uses that point as well in this shooting phase, but rolls its 3d6 separately, and could then (conceivably) draw lines out to the limit of your 3d6 (for each Pylon) and land hits on who/whatever unlucky bastards happen to be under those lines.

Seems, to me, to be the best agreement between Pylons and regular unit-shooting rules. You're now all shooting at the same target, inasmuch as a Pylon has a target.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Have you got the exact rules for the beam in your codex? Could you quote them?

I don't mean to sound rude, but if you don't have access to the rule being discussed you really shouldn't be telling people how it's played.

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Have you got the exact rules for the beam in your codex? Could you quote them?

I don't mean to sound rude, but if you don't have access to the rule being discussed you really shouldn't be telling people how it's played.

I suppose quoting and basing myself on the BrB RaW is not enough? We must own the codexes we discuss in YMDC?