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Hi Guys, I've heard a lot about the four-riptide build but never had to face one.

As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.) and I ignore most of their hurt with a constant 2+ coversave.

So long as I'm getting rid of any markerlights, I really can't see what all the fuss is about - I've done the math, with a farsight bomb like mine you can kill a riptide and a half a turn (admittedly, both need to be within 12". I'm also assuming I took no casualties at the time of shooting.) and then assault to kill the other riptide and a half - if that doesn't work, I can hit and run and shoot at it.

So what's the fuss? Am I an anomaly or is this list just not such a big deal.

Also, if someone can shoot over a model of the 4-riptides build I'd love to test it out for myself.

You are an anomaly...you're also playing tau.

If only there were some way for Riptides to ignore cover. Or re-roll to hit. Or at least increase their ballistic skill.

Then they'd be much better.

Without that, they're simply OK.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Hi Guys, I've heard a lot about the four-riptide build but never had to face one.

As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.) and I ignore most of their hurt with a constant 2+ coversave.

If the enemy Tau player can't get 2 Markerlight hits on you, you've already won.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Hi Guys, I've heard a lot about the four-riptide build but never had to face one.

As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.) and I ignore most of their hurt with a constant 2+ coversave.

If the enemy Tau player can't get 2 Markerlight hits on you, you've already won.

I mean, unless they have a fireblade and dark strider (I doubt this somehow), they can't. I'll make it a point of wiping pathfinders or drones first turn, as you should with any tau army.

Which I can do, considering I'm rbinging two of my own riptides to bear, as well as a lot of nasty guns.

Any codex outside of the big three has a problem with Riptides, because they don't have easy access to mobile/ignore-cover/low-AP/wound-reroll tucked into one package.

Or you know most 4 Riptide lists run Ovesastar and have the Buff commander running with a riptide, Farsight, ovesa, and some drones...1 or 2 S8 Ap2, twin linked, Ignores Cover large blast and your Farsight bomb is going to be hurting.

Then the other 2- 3 Riptides are hitting other stuff.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Any codex outside of the big three has a problem with Riptides, because they don't have easy access to mobile/ignore-cover/low-AP/wound-reroll tucked into one package.

Funny thing is that Tyranids have the best riptide killing unit in Shrikes with boneswords and toxin sacs. They can put out a ton of attacks and can put a decent number of wounds on it. They can also ID on a 6 so they have that going for them. Fast units too and can probably kill it before it can hit back.

But they are real fragile. Kill one riptide and then get shot to pieces while standing in the open.

 Gloomfang wrote:

Funny thing is that Tyranids have the best riptide killing unit in Shrikes with boneswords and toxin sacs. They can put out a ton of attacks and can put a decent number of wounds on it. They can also ID on a 6 so they have that going for them. Fast units too and can probably kill it before it can hit back.

But they are real fragile. Kill one riptide and then get shot to pieces while standing in the open.

Daemonettes and Seekers both rend it down, and are cheaper (well, the nettes are - not sure on Seekers vs Shrikes). Riptides crumple in assaults, that's nothing new - getting there is the problem. If you can get within charge distance of a Riptide you've got mad skills, or the Tau player is a poor decision maker.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
If you can get within charge distance of a Riptide you've got mad skills, or the Tau player is a poor decision maker.

Or you were in a Land Raider.

Just, you know, remember to not use the Force Weapon until the OPPONENT'S turn so your Inquisitorial Assault Squad doesn't get shot to pieces on the Tau player's next turn.

Minor details, I know...

*sighs*

Yeah, I don't have any problem taking down riptides either.

Terminator Assault Squads in Landraiders or StormRavens
Command Squads with Plasma Guns
Marine Captain with Thunderhammer and Shield Eternal
Grav Gun Bikers
Storm Talons with Skyhammer
Landspeeders with x2 Assault Cannons
Sternguard with combi-plasma
Grav Gun Centurions

Any two of these together are capable of taking down a Rip-Tide a turn and some of them can take one down a turn on their own. And that's just one codex. Plan on Monstrous Creature spam when building your list for competitive tournaments and you should have no problem whatsoever in clearing the board of Riptides by turn 3. I aim to take down two a turn if I can, to minimise the number of anti-riptide units I lose to the surviving rip-tides.

Really, I don't quite understand what all the fuss is about. Even before the new SM codex, when I was using a lot of Guard, I had no trouble taking them down thanks to lots and lots of vehicle mounted heavy bolters, multi-lasers and a Leman Russ Punisher.

 Magc8Ball wrote:

Or you were in a Land Raider.

Just, you know, remember to not use the Force Weapon until the OPPONENT'S turn so your Inquisitorial Assault Squad doesn't get shot to pieces on the Tau player's next turn.

Minor details, I know...

*sighs*

Even a Land Raider needs to get within 12'' to guarantee the charge, or 18'' to make it possible. Between a 6'' move and a 2d6 or 4d6 assault move, you're not getting there. Or if you are, there are broadsides and other Riptides around to share overwatch and butcher your charging unit before it gets there. Assuming you got there without getting surprise-melta'd at 9'' from a Crisis suit drop, who then assault jumped away. Or a Longstrike Hammerhead.

I'm not saying charging Riptides is impossible, but it is exceedingly difficult - and with markerlight support, their only weakness. You generally can't outshoot them. The list of units that can reliably catch a Riptide and kill it in an assault are slim. It's why they're so good: a combination of durability, maneuverability, and firepower that is as-of-yet unmatched.

While we all respect the might riptide, 4 riptide lists are just ones where there are fewer points to spend on markerlights. While they have torn my CSMs a new one a few times, my strategy against Riptides are to cause a morale check.

My of my CSMs cause fear.

 LeadLegion wrote:
Yeah, I don't have any problem taking down riptides either.

Terminator Assault Squads in Landraiders or StormRavens
Command Squads with Plasma Guns
Marine Captain with Thunderhammer and Shield Eternal
Grav Gun Bikers
Storm Talons with Skyhammer
Landspeeders with x2 Assault Cannons
Sternguard with combi-plasma
Grav Gun Centurions

Any two of these together are capable of taking down a Rip-Tide a turn and some of them can take one down a turn on their own. And that's just one codex. Plan on Monstrous Creature spam when building your list for competitive tournaments and you should have no problem whatsoever in clearing the board of Riptides by turn 3. I aim to take down two a turn if I can, to minimise the number of anti-riptide units I lose to the surviving rip-tides.

Really, I don't quite understand what all the fuss is about. Even before the new SM codex, when I was using a lot of Guard, I had no trouble taking them down thanks to lots and lots of vehicle mounted heavy bolters, multi-lasers and a Leman Russ Punisher.

Terminator Assault Squads aren't supposed to get to Riptides, ever. That's poor play on part of the Tau player, plain and simple. It's a Jetpack MC with humongous range.

Command Squads with Plasma Guns on average kill half a Riptide a turn, in Rapid Fire, assuming it doesn't have the 3++, FNP or some sort of cover better than 5++.

Chapter Masters can work (assuming bike mounted, otherwise see TH/SS), but you'll be hard-pressed to get more than one Riptide per game with him and his friends, and even that will take some chasing, during which the Riptide is still shooting.

Grav gun bikers need to be within 18" and still only do slightly more than half a Riptide per turn, assuming 5++ and no FNP.

Storm Talons deal 0.926 wounds per turn, assuming no FNP or better than 5++.

Land Speeders with Assault Cannons have a 24" range and deal 0.888... wounds per turn on average, again assuming no FNP or better than 5++.

10 Sternguard with Combi-Plasma deal 5.925... wounds in Rapid Fire range, assuming 5++ and no FNP. Almost there!

Grav-cannon Centurions, assuming no MLs and 3 Centurions, do 5.555... wounds, assuming no FNP and no better than 5++. Four Centurions kill a Riptide a turn on average.

So yeah, out of the stuff you listed the only three realistic options are Sternguard, who are freakishly expensive and prone to sudden cases of death after reaching their target, Chapter Master on bike with friends, who will take most of the game chasing the Riptide down while being freakishly expensive, and Grav-Centurions, who are freakishly expensive, vulnerable to AP2 and have to be within 24" of the Jump MC with freakish range.

And all of this is assuming that the Riptide doesn't pass its check for 3++, doesn't have FNP, doesn't have Interceptor, doesn't have any sort of supporting army blocking you from reaching it and, above all else, that it doesn't simply shoot you first. With a range of >24", it has the edge over most of above units.

who needs to kill a riptide when you can just tie it in combat for the entire game. Chaos spawn anyone? Still, wouldn't like to hedge my bets against more than 2 of them...

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.)

Well, that's so nice of you! Assuming you want ( if you don't, then read on with the next post) to make a point about the non-cheesiness of Riptide spam and implicite a non-issue, here are a few words I recently read somewhere on the interwebz: "Anecdotal evidence is fallacious at best. [Stop using it to prove points that aren't true.]" But I have to say, it's good to see the thing illuminated from all sides!

 somecallmeJack wrote:
who needs to kill a riptide when you can just tie it in combat for the entire game. Chaos spawn anyone? Still, wouldn't like to hedge my bets against more than 2 of them...

First you need to get into combat, then you need to not take S10 smashes to your T5 models without Invulnerable Saves.

Terminator Assault Squads aren't supposed to get to Riptides, ever. That's poor play on part of the Tau player, plain and simple. It's a Jetpack MC with humongous range.

Command Squads with Plasma Guns on average kill half a Riptide a turn, in Rapid Fire, assuming it doesn't have the 3++, FNP or some sort of cover better than 5++.

Chapter Masters can work (assuming bike mounted, otherwise see TH/SS), but you'll be hard-pressed to get more than one Riptide per game with him and his friends, and even that will take some chasing, during which the Riptide is still shooting.

Grav gun bikers need to be within 18" and still only do slightly more than half a Riptide per turn, assuming 5++ and no FNP.

Storm Talons deal 0.926 wounds per turn, assuming no FNP or better than 5++.

Land Speeders with Assault Cannons have a 24" range and deal 0.888... wounds per turn on average, again assuming no FNP or better than 5++.

10 Sternguard with Combi-Plasma deal 5.925... wounds in Rapid Fire range, assuming 5++ and no FNP. Almost there!

Grav-cannon Centurions, assuming no MLs and 3 Centurions, do 5.555... wounds, assuming no FNP and no better than 5++. Four Centurions kill a Riptide a turn on average.

So yeah, out of the stuff you listed the only three realistic options are Sternguard, who are freakishly expensive and prone to sudden cases of death after reaching their target, Chapter Master on bike with friends, who will take most of the game chasing the Riptide down while being freakishly expensive, and Grav-Centurions, who are freakishly expensive, vulnerable to AP2 and have to be within 24" of the Jump MC with freakish range.

And all of this is assuming that the Riptide doesn't pass its check for 3++, doesn't have FNP, doesn't have Interceptor, doesn't have any sort of supporting army blocking you from reaching it and, above all else, that it doesn't simply shoot you first. With a range of >24", it has the edge over most of above units.

Yes, as I said. Two of these units in combination can take down a Riptide in a single turn and a Terminator Squad assaulting out of a Stormraven has no problems catching a Riptide (assuming it doesn't get shot down first mind you, taking it's expensive squad with it).That being said I hadn't considered the actual maths involved, only my own Imperical experience. With the actual stats laid so bare, it seems that I have very much been bucking the trend with "clutch " rolls when it comes to killing Riptides with my Marines. I wonder how long I'll be able to keep on killing two a turn now that I have the odds in my head to make me doubt whether taking the shot is worth while?

Edit: The list I commonly use includes the following units that are effective in killing MC's: 2x10 Combi-Plasma Sternguard in Droppod, min assault squad with flamers in Pod (not actually anti MC, but lets me drop both Sternguard pods in turn one), 5x TH/SS in StormRaven, Landspeeder Squadron and 1x Scout Sniper Squad split into combat teams (forgot to mention those in my list of anti-MC units, mostly due to the lack of decent AP). The Sternguard squads (both drop in turn one) usually knock most of the wounds of two riptides in turn one (three pods, so I can drop both Sternguard in turn one). The Scouts, Landspeeders and other units in the army are normally sufficient to knock off the remaining wound or two on the damaged Riptides or, if I'm really lucky and two Riptides are already gone, I try to knock a few more wounds off a third rip-tide.

Turn 2: I normally lose most of both Sternguard squads in my opponents turn (even though they've shot their load of plasma, they're still usually way to oclose to his firewarriors to be ignored) to his remaining Riptides and other units. If I'm lucky (helped by Coteaz with his Psyker power and other reserve shenanigans) the Stormraven comes in and IF it's not shot down it, in conjunction with the Landspeeder squadron and scouts (and maybe one or two other units), it kills another Riptide. If necessary, other units in the army can be used to knock off the remaining wounds to secure a kill OR, if I was already able to knock a few wounds off Riptide 3 in turn 1, they can knock a few wounds off the final riptide.

Turn 3. If there are any surviving Riptides and the Stormraven hasn't been shot down, it goes into Hover Mode, shoots up the Riptide with the most wounds remaining and the n the TH/SS Termies finish it off. If there is yet another Riptide still alive, the surviving landspeeders and scouts (if any) try to finish it off.

Turn 4 onwards: Focus on killing troops and seizing objectives.

Big Caveat: This is a "near-ideal" scenario, considering the Riptides and my anti-riptide units in a near vacuum and not really taking into account the Tau player's other units. It usually doesn't work out anywhere near as cleanly as I'm making it sound and I'll often still have one or (very rarely) two wounded Riptides jumping around in turn 4.

So csm termicide does not work? Can riptides shoot further than 48"? If not then i gotta try to force wounds with havocs+ac. If the riptides can shoot further then i just have to bring back my defilers n hope i can hug cover n get lucky. I dont know what else to do if these fail.

Breng77 wrote:
Or you know most 4 Riptide lists run Ovesastar and have the Buff commander running with a riptide, Farsight, ovesa, and some drones...1 or 2 S8 Ap2, twin linked, Ignores Cover large blast and your Farsight bomb is going to be hurting.

Then the other 2- 3 Riptides are hitting other stuff.

... except where I can knock out Ovesa, Farsight and a Support suit in one turn's shooting.

Y'know, because I didn't do the math for O'vesa, right?

I did it for two different units, one with a unit of 3 suits and one with 2 riptides (one being o'vesa), shadowsun, farsight and a support suit.

Those are two ways I've seen it run. would you like me to do the math on something else?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suite wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.)

Well, that's so nice of you! Assuming you want ( if you don't, then read on with the next post) to make a point about the non-cheesiness of Riptide spam and implicite a non-issue, here are a few words I recently read somewhere on the interwebz: "Anecdotal evidence is fallacious at best. [Stop using it to prove points that aren't true.]" But I have to say, it's good to see the thing illuminated from all sides!

Except when the argument is not anecdotal. Y'know, because I didn't give an example in that argument, but stated the logical reasoning that is "I can kill monsters well because I have a rule that allows me to kill monsters well." But nice try at being condescending. An Anecdote would be something like "this one time I made 74 2+ cover saves no lie." Are you maybe trying to say that the argument's anecdotal because it only applies to my specific build? I was asking why other armies find it threatening, while stating that mine doesn't. This still isn't an anecdote.

And Statistics are also not an anecdote. They're mathematical proof of average ability.

Riptides are so easy to counter, you just bring your own 4 Riptides and make sure you're a better player. So easy!

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Or you know most 4 Riptide lists run Ovesastar and have the Buff commander running with a riptide, Farsight, ovesa, and some drones...1 or 2 S8 Ap2, twin linked, Ignores Cover large blast and your Farsight bomb is going to be hurting.

Then the other 2- 3 Riptides are hitting other stuff.

... except where I can knock out Ovesa, Farsight and a Support suit in one turn's shooting.

Y'know, because I didn't do the math for O'vesa, right?

I did it for two different units, one with a unit of 3 suits and one with 2 riptides (one being o'vesa), shadowsun, farsight and a support suit.

Those are two ways I've seen it run. would you like me to do the math on something else?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suite wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.)

Well, that's so nice of you! Assuming you want ( if you don't, then read on with the next post) to make a point about the non-cheesiness of Riptide spam and implicite a non-issue, here are a few words I recently read somewhere on the interwebz: "Anecdotal evidence is fallacious at best. [Stop using it to prove points that aren't true.]" But I have to say, it's good to see the thing illuminated from all sides!

Except when the argument is not anecdotal. Y'know, because I didn't give an example in that argument, but stated the logical reasoning that is "I can kill monsters well because I have a rule that allows me to kill monsters well." But nice try at being condescending. An Anecdote would be something like "this one time I made 74 2+ cover saves no lie." Are you maybe trying to say that the argument's anecdotal because it only applies to my specific build? I was asking why other armies find it threatening, while stating that mine doesn't. This still isn't an anecdote.

And Statistics are also not an anecdote. They're mathematical proof of average ability.

When the O'Vesa star falls in one turn it's really painful...but that happens quite rarely.

"Why is everyone afraid of a guy with a chainsaw?" says a man with a chainsaw.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Or you know most 4 Riptide lists run Ovesastar and have the Buff commander running with a riptide, Farsight, ovesa, and some drones...1 or 2 S8 Ap2, twin linked, Ignores Cover large blast and your Farsight bomb is going to be hurting.

Then the other 2- 3 Riptides are hitting other stuff.

... except where I can knock out Ovesa, Farsight and a Support suit in one turn's shooting.

Y'know, because I didn't do the math for O'vesa, right?

I did it for two different units, one with a unit of 3 suits and one with 2 riptides (one being o'vesa), shadowsun, farsight and a support suit.

Those are two ways I've seen it run. would you like me to do the math on something else?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suite wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.)

Well, that's so nice of you! Assuming you want ( if you don't, then read on with the next post) to make a point about the non-cheesiness of Riptide spam and implicite a non-issue, here are a few words I recently read somewhere on the interwebz: "Anecdotal evidence is fallacious at best. [Stop using it to prove points that aren't true.]" But I have to say, it's good to see the thing illuminated from all sides!

Except when the argument is not anecdotal. Y'know, because I didn't give an example in that argument, but stated the logical reasoning that is "I can kill monsters well because I have a rule that allows me to kill monsters well." But nice try at being condescending. An Anecdote would be something like "this one time I made 74 2+ cover saves no lie." Are you maybe trying to say that the argument's anecdotal because it only applies to my specific build? I was asking why other armies find it threatening, while stating that mine doesn't. This still isn't an anecdote.

And Statistics are also not an anecdote. They're mathematical proof of average ability.

But you also assume getting to 12" unharmed....which you won't ever do so your math doesn't mean much. Its the same for they guy that is saying take 2 pods with sternguard, because the Tau player won't pay 5 points for interceptor to kill your sternguard before they can shoot.

Really the arguments against it being at all good seem to be like....well if the Tau player is bad...its a non-issue.

What I'm saying is that your Farsightbomb will be dead, if not greatly reduced by the time you get to within 12". Because he is just as fast as you with better range. HE also has a better save so his smart missiles (which ignore cover) are doing more damage on average.

I'm not saying mathematically you cannot kill the unit...I;m saying practically, against a good player, the situation you propose won't happen, and you'll lose your unit first. Because your whole argument was...I have this great cover save, and I'll kill all his markerlights, before he uses them, get to 12" unharmed, and wreck him. Which to me is wishful thinking. I think it is more realistic to say....his unit ignores your cover, and out ranges you with pie plates that instant death your suits....your going to lose some if not all of them...and if you get in range and don't kill him he will shoot, charge and kill you.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

I mean, unless they have a fireblade and dark strider (I doubt this somehow), they can't. I'll make it a point of wiping pathfinders or drones first turn, as you should with any tau army.

Which I can do, considering I'm rbinging two of my own riptides to bear, as well as a lot of nasty guns.

So...the recipe against Tau and their Riptides is to play Tau and bring your own Riptides?

I'm speechless.

Backfire wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

I mean, unless they have a fireblade and dark strider (I doubt this somehow), they can't. I'll make it a point of wiping pathfinders or drones first turn, as you should with any tau army.

Which I can do, considering I'm rbinging two of my own riptides to bear, as well as a lot of nasty guns.

So...the recipe against Tau and their Riptides is to play Tau and bring your own Riptides?

I'm speechless.

The recipe against tau is to take out their Ignores Cover. After that you cling to cover and hope for the best.

If that's a pathfinder, you kill a pathfinder. If that's a support suit, you get it done. Hell, assault the squad if it doesn't have hit and run. Better to quagmire a support suit riptide team than to take it on when it's shooting.

Not every army has all these great toys to kill Riptides with, especially if you aren't tailoring a list specifically. Besides, what fun is it that I cant field the army I want to field because some cheesy POS wants to field four of them and I am forced to field an unfun army just to counter them. The game is about fun and being forced to bring an army dictated by your opponent is not fun.

How would 3 Wraithknights fair against 3 Riptides?

You're running a drop-dead broken super-deathstar that always lands where it needs to with a uniquely massive complement of special weapons with high accuracy, and you think that the fact it beats Riptides (well doh) says anything about how hard they are to kill?

4 Riptides is 4 S8 AP2 Interceptor pie plates with infinite range that make a mockery of elite infantry. One will have TL and ignores cover probably in addition. It takes 1-2 turns of "safe" with no retaliation, killing power to down one with select units from most Codex's, and they require great circumstances often.

Mr.Omega wrote:You're running a drop-dead broken super-deathstar that always lands where it needs to with a uniquely massive complement of special weapons with high accuracy, and you think that the fact it beats Riptides (well doh) says anything about how hard they are to kill?

4 Riptides is 4 S8 AP2 Interceptor pie plates with infinite range that make a mockery of elite infantry. One will have TL and ignores cover probably in addition. It takes 1-2 turns of "safe" with no retaliation, killing power to down one with select units from most Codex's, and they require great circumstances often.

No. That's not what I asked or what I've been trying to say.

My question, hell the thread title is why are people afraid? I know why I am not afraid. I'm afraid of very few things using my farsight bomb, and riptides rank very low on that list (lower, you might find surprising, than 300 guardsmen.) I think you've given me the best answer so far, but everyone's so sneering towards me for asking this question. Here's the fact, I'm not here to brag about how good a farsight bomb is. I know its capabilities better than I understand basic fractions. What I don't know is a Riptide army. I've never faced one and I've only run simulations of how the game would unfold.

So other armies struggle because it takes 13 AP2 wounds to down a riptide with stim injectors? I think I'm starting to get the problem now, but even when I play marines I really don't find them that scary - I guess that's just because I've subconciously tailored to take out 4 riptides. I guess I really have to face the threat before I can actually understand why they're so scary to other people.

Col. Dash wrote:Not every army has all these great toys to kill Riptides with, especially if you aren't tailoring a list specifically. Besides, what fun is it that I cant field the army I want to field because some cheesy POS wants to field four of them and I am forced to field an unfun army just to counter them. The game is about fun and being forced to bring an army dictated by your opponent is not fun.

I'm really surprised about these kinds of comments on this thread. It's very clear I haven't played a 4-riptide army. I wouldn't be asking *why are people afraid* and *can someone show this list to me* if I had. The mere fact that I *do* destroy these units does not mean that I'm tailoring. I'm tailoring to a meta filled with monsters and at the very least, flyers. I don't see many tanks (aside from the odd Rhino or drop pod, and serpents, of course) I am not tailoring to riptides and I'm frustrated that I'm being accused of doing so.

Also, do people run that kind of a list outside of competitive play? I run a Marine List when I just want a fun list. It's still a competitive list, but it isn't stupidly rulebuffed like the farsight bomb is. I can't imagine having 4 models doing all your actions during a turn being fun. I guess maybe it's better than one unit, but at least that unit can target a whole bunch of stuff.

Now I'd like to make this clear to every future poster: I wasn't trying to brag. I wasn't trying to cause an upset, I just wanted to understand an army that by all accounts I've read, I should be afraid of. I just struggle to be and I want to know why it happens elsewhere.