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After much due consideration, and wanting a step away from the GW water cooler, some friends and I have decided to start Warmachine.

I am going to being doing a retribution force all because of the Dawnlord Vyros model, but to do some research before jump into the deep end, I have a few questions to ask about the game, while I wait for my rulebook to get here.

1. In the gallery on the PP website, I see no generic character models, does this mean there are no generic playable characters in the game? (I'm not to fussed about this one, mostly curious).

2. I've read through the quick start rules on the website and the game appears, at face value to be similar to chess in that, it will be easy to learn, but difficult to master, is this correct (I hope so, GW's rules are, lacking...)

3. Based on reading a couple of other threads in this forum and some other parts of the interwebs, this appears to be a game where the dominant playstyles will be a combination of buffing/debuffing and aggressive combined-arms tactics (similar to Taudar in 40k, would be my guess), is this correct?

4. Based on the model I want to start with, what would be some good beginning purchases to go with him, knowledge being power and all that, this is probably the most important question, because I wouldn't want to spend money on stuff that won't totally mesh with Vyros' playstyle.

5. Is there a lexicanum type where I could read up on each faction's background?

Thanks in advance for your help Dakka, although I have to admit I'm rather anxious about trying something new (not that its a bad thing I guess).

Hopefully I can come back soon with more questions, once my rulebook gets here.

 Krellnus wrote:
After much due consideration, and wanting a step away from the GW water cooler, some friends and I have decided to start Warmachine.

I am going to being doing a retribution force all because of the Dawnlord Vyros model, but to do some research before jump into the deep end, I have a few questions to ask about the game, while I wait for my rulebook to get here.

1. In the gallery on the PP website, I see no generic character models, does this mean there are no generic playable characters in the game? (I'm not to fussed about this one, mostly curious).

2. I've read through the quick start rules on the website and the game appears, at face value to be similar to chess in that, it will be easy to learn, but difficult to master, is this correct (I hope so, GW's rules are, lacking...)

3. Based on reading a couple of other threads in this forum and some other parts of the interwebs, this appears to be a game where the dominant playstyles will be a combination of buffing/debuffing and aggressive combined-arms tactics (similar to Taudar in 40k, would be my guess), is this correct?

4. Based on the model I want to start with, what would be some good beginning purchases to go with him, knowledge being power and all that, this is probably the most important question, because I wouldn't want to spend money on stuff that won't totally mesh with Vyros' playstyle.

5. Is there a lexicanum type where I could read up on each faction's background?

Thanks in advance for your help Dakka, although I have to admit I'm rather anxious about trying something new (not that its a bad thing I guess).

Hopefully I can come back soon with more questions, once my rulebook gets here.

1. Nope, every character is a 'special character'. This sucks if you are in to 'building your own story' but apart from that it works well due to no broken HQ's.

2. Warmahordes is pretty damn balanced, I'd say that there are no problems with the game at all. It helps because MkII was play tested by THE ENTIRE gamer base, they literally handed out the rules for everything for free and were like 'play with it, and get back to us.'

3. Most armies like a bit of synergy in their diet, Cryx and POM being the two that stand out to me. It isn't always the case and there are some units which demand to be left on their own. But Synergy is key in all armies due to the fact that Warjacks can't do anything useful without their warcaster being nearby to push it in the right direction (some models are exempt from this, and are highly valued for not being a drain.

4. I have no idea, I've never seen a Ret force in the flesh I'm afraid.

5. Not really, most of it is book bases. Online the best places are privateer press and battle college (which mostly deals with tactics) There is a wiki, but it only has 65 pages on it. http://ironkingdoms.wikia.com But give it a go, it is better than nothing.


Please remember to pick up your steam punk goggles, and your non-existent warjack plush toy.

 Krellnus wrote:
After much due consideration, and wanting a step away from the GW water cooler, some friends and I have decided to start Warmachine.

First up, welcome to the iron Kingdoms. Don’t forget your complimentary goggles and Phoenix plushie!

 Krellnus wrote:

I am going to being doing a retribution force all because of the Dawnlord Vyros model, but to do some research before jump into the deep end, I have a few questions to ask about the game, while I wait for my rulebook to get here.

Feel free to ask away. It’s one of those games where there are a lot of things going on.

 Krellnus wrote:

1. In the gallery on the PP website, I see no generic character models, does this mean there are no generic playable characters in the game? (I'm not to fussed about this one, mostly curious).

Indeed, you are correct. In effect, all warcasters are the equivelant of GW’s “special characters”. Warmachine/Hordes are character driven games. Everone is a unique “name”, and there are no “generic, customiseable nameless (faction) casters”. It’s a feature, not a bug.

 Krellnus wrote:

2. I've read through the quick start rules on the website and the game appears, at face value to be similar to chess in that, it will be easy to learn, but difficult to master, is this correct (I hope so, GW's rules are, lacking...)

Bang on. The basics are simple and straightforward, but the game has an unfathomable amount of depth. Changing a single piece in your army can change how the whole thing works.

 Krellnus wrote:

3. Based on reading a couple of other threads in this forum and some other parts of the interwebs, this appears to be a game where the dominant playstyles will be a combination of buffing/debuffing and aggressive combined-arms tactics (similar to Taudar in 40k, would be my guess), is this correct?

Sounds accurate. Bear in mind as well, you’ll have to think about jamming, tarpitting, alphastriking, control/denial, piece trading, and all the time, protecting your caster and securing the objectives.

 Krellnus wrote:

4. Based on the model I want to start with, what would be some good beginning purchases to go with him, knowledge being power and all that, this is probably the most important question, because I wouldn't want to spend money on stuff that won't totally mesh with Vyros' playstyle.

Best advice? Start with the Retribution starter (either the one with Kaelyssa, or the alternative in the PP escalation league PDF), and build up with an escalation league over a few weeks. Check the PP website, they’ll give all the rules and that in in the community support section.
Start small, and build up – its far better than jumping straight in at 50pts – for a lot of people, “overwhelmed” is the word used to describe what happens next!
Regarding Vyros – a jack or two is good. Phoenix, Banshees etc. arcanists are a huge boon for ret myrmidons. Beyond that, when you expand with infantry, there is no “one list” to go with. This isn’t 40k. Ret have some fantastic infantry, and you’ll do as well with a “dartboard” approach as anything else, especially when learning.

 Krellnus wrote:

5. Is there a lexicanum type where I could read up on each faction's background?

Nope, im afraid not. PP don’t really have online Wikis with all the fluff. The fluff is generally spread throughout the No Quarters, rulebooks, anthology books, RPG material etc. What you can do, if interested is get the PP reader app on your tablet, and download all the Mk1 sourcebooks (you get them for a song) and old NQs with their fluff, puzzles, painting guides etc (up to issue 25, they’re 69p each) and you’ve got a good solid foundation for the fluff, as the fluff gets pushed forward in each expansion book – the MK1 stuff will take you as far as Khador’s conquest of llael, and the legion’s consumption of the dragon Pyromalfic. Beyond that, your rulebook, and Forces of War books will give a lot of extra information (background, logistics, organisation etc) for the faction. Bear in mind, a lot of faction books will shed light not only on their fluff, but on the fluff of other factions. The retribution Forces of Book, I have to say, is fantastic, by the way. It really fleshes out the faction, and brings them to life in a way that’s hard to imagine. I hate elves. I despise the pixie little buggers. But the retribution FoW book utterly sold me on PPs take on them.
Another useful place is the PP forums. Look at the IKRPG sub board, and look for the stickie there with all the collected writings of Doug Seacat. He’s the main writer for the setting, and his word, basically is law. Its got lots of stuff on culture, cosmology, and everything from a to z in the iron kingdoms.

 Krellnus wrote:

Thanks in advance for your help Dakka, although I have to admit I'm rather anxious about trying something new (not that its a bad thing I guess).

Feel free to come back with questions. We’ll do our best to smash you on the tabletop (whilst playing like gentlemen, of course!) but the PP community is generally very opening and welcoming. Just don’t be anxious about the game. it is a fantastic game to play, and a better world to get lost in 

You'd be ok starting out with Vyross instead of Kaelyssa. I'd still pick up the battle box because of the massive savings it has(and you'll have 2 warcasters instead of one)

After that, you'll want to play games with it. Like 10ish games. Just to get a feel for how the game is played. Do this before getting anything new. If you jump in at the deep end you'll probably choke with the variety and tactical complexity.

Now that you've got the basic mechanics down you can start expanding. Get something simple to expand with. Like an Arcanist solo and a unit of Battle Mages or MHSF.


If you have any device that can use Apps, download Warroom. Its an official PP list building and damage tracking app. The app is free but you'll need to purchase the faction decks(only $8 each) and that will get you all the cards for the entire faction. And any future cards that are released for it while we're still in the current edition.

This way you can build lists and look at cards of models you don't own. Even proxy something if you want to test something out. Its cheaper than buying all the books and physical faction cards.

I'm going to give you the same advice that I give most everyone starting the game:

First, get the rules. Kinda' obvious, and you're doing that. Awesome.

Two, find a community that plays/make one. You're also doing that, excellent.

Three, and this is where things change a bit, get some games in before you start buying too many models. Buy blank bases and use them as proxies to get a feel for how the game plays. Borrow some models from friends. It's very difficult to go from no knowledge of the game to where you can look at the stat line and get a feel for what that really means. It's a real strength of the game, as far as I'm concerned, but it /does/ make it harder to feel out when you're starting.

Of course, you /can/ certainly go the 'traditional' route if you like, picking up the battle box and such. However, I will leave you with an important note on that:

The game plays very differently when you hit higher (35+) points than it does on the very small scale. Yeah, this is expected, but it gives you a somewhat warped picture as to how good things are, and how important certain stats and abilities are. I would suggest moving to 35ish points as soon as you have a good feel for the core rules, that way you can more 'properly' evaluate models and their role/place in an army list.

That all being said, most things go alright with Vyross. You're going to want to lean harder on infantry than you do on warjacks, in my opinion. A lot harder. Retribution in general has far superior infantry than they do warjacks, and a lot of this has to do with their pretty anemic warlock (when you see warlock, it's 'warjack' that has been autocorrected by my computer. Going back and fixing it is getting too tedious) damage values in combination with their high point costs. Their warjacks tend to /do/ a lot of different things, but you pay for each and every one of those things. Now, you'll still want warjacks around to perform those roles, but they're scalpels and special forces, not a mainstay.

Dawnguard sentinels will be something you want sooner rather than later. They're an incredibly hammer, and they're quite the anvil when it comes to resisting most anti-infantry ranged attacks. You also probably want Mage Hunter Infiltrators, as Vyross can help protect them against blast damage, which is pretty commonly used to thin out lightly armored high defense troops. You'll want ranged support of some stripe, but there are a ton of options for that and honestly, they're all very good. Hell, every last troop choice in Retribution is very good with the exception of Riflemen, and even they're acceptable with the new thane that came out (it allows them to ignore stealth, which gives riflemen an actual role).

Uhhh… Everyone else answered your main questions, so do you have anything else? Though we have this kinda' thread pop up pretty often nowadays, I see it as a pretty damn good thing. The PP official forums are also a decent place to get good advice, and the Ret sub forum in particular has been pretty optimistic lately due to the release of some new models that help the faction out significantly.

Oh, a last note on Vyross: Vyross one is kinda' an awkward caster for Ret, and he doesn't play to the strengths of the faction (IMO). As such, do not be too shocked if you start to lean in the direction of other casters sooner rather than later. While he does a couple cool things, I don't feel he synergizes as well as most of the others. This is not to say you can't be successful with him, but it does mean that focusing on him will give you a very different perspective on the faction than if you used other casters. (The main thing is that Vyross does not support ranged options that much, and Retribution is traditionally seen as a combined-arms-favoring-ranged faction.)

Deadnight wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
After much due consideration, and wanting a step away from the GW water cooler, some friends and I have decided to start Warmachine.

First up, welcome to the iron Kingdoms. Don’t forget your complimentary goggles and Phoenix plushie!

Awww yeah, gotta love plushies!

Deadnight wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

1. In the gallery on the PP website, I see no generic character models, does this mean there are no generic playable characters in the game? (I'm not to fussed about this one, mostly curious).

Indeed, you are correct. In effect, all warcasters are the equivelant of GW’s “special characters”. Warmachine/Hordes are character driven games. Everone is a unique “name”, and there are no “generic, customiseable nameless (faction) casters”. It’s a feature, not a bug.

That's cool, I've always preferred playing with named characters myself instead of creating my own as it were.

Deadnight wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

2. I've read through the quick start rules on the website and the game appears, at face value to be similar to chess in that, it will be easy to learn, but difficult to master, is this correct (I hope so, GW's rules are, lacking...)

Bang on. The basics are simple and straightforward, but the game has an unfathomable amount of depth. Changing a single piece in your army can change how the whole thing works.

I like the sound of that

Deadnight wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

3. Based on reading a couple of other threads in this forum and some other parts of the interwebs, this appears to be a game where the dominant playstyles will be a combination of buffing/debuffing and aggressive combined-arms tactics (similar to Taudar in 40k, would be my guess), is this correct?

Sounds accurate. Bear in mind as well, you’ll have to think about jamming, tarpitting, alphastriking, control/denial, piece trading, and all the time, protecting your caster and securing the objectives.

This is sounding more and more like my kinda game, I'm pretty sure I'm going to enjoy it here.

Deadnight wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

4. Based on the model I want to start with, what would be some good beginning purchases to go with him, knowledge being power and all that, this is probably the most important question, because I wouldn't want to spend money on stuff that won't totally mesh with Vyros' playstyle.

Best advice? Start with the Retribution starter (either the one with Kaelyssa, or the alternative in the PP escalation league PDF), and build up with an escalation league over a few weeks. Check the PP website, they’ll give all the rules and that in in the community support section.
Start small, and build up – its far better than jumping straight in at 50pts – for a lot of people, “overwhelmed” is the word used to describe what happens next!
Regarding Vyros – a jack or two is good. Phoenix, Banshees etc. arcanists are a huge boon for ret myrmidons. Beyond that, when you expand with infantry, there is no “one list” to go with. This isn’t 40k. Ret have some fantastic infantry, and you’ll do as well with a “dartboard” approach as anything else, especially when learning.

I think I'll definatley start with the starter + Vyros and get some games in, thanks.

Deadnight wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

5. Is there a lexicanum type where I could read up on each faction's background?

Nope, im afraid not. PP don’t really have online Wikis with all the fluff. The fluff is generally spread throughout the No Quarters, rulebooks, anthology books, RPG material etc. What you can do, if interested is get the PP reader app on your tablet, and download all the Mk1 sourcebooks (you get them for a song) and old NQs with their fluff, puzzles, painting guides etc (up to issue 25, they’re 69p each) and you’ve got a good solid foundation for the fluff, as the fluff gets pushed forward in each expansion book – the MK1 stuff will take you as far as Khador’s conquest of llael, and the legion’s consumption of the dragon Pyromalfic. Beyond that, your rulebook, and Forces of War books will give a lot of extra information (background, logistics, organisation etc) for the faction. Bear in mind, a lot of faction books will shed light not only on their fluff, but on the fluff of other factions. The retribution Forces of Book, I have to say, is fantastic, by the way. It really fleshes out the faction, and brings them to life in a way that’s hard to imagine. I hate elves. I despise the pixie little buggers. But the retribution FoW book utterly sold me on PPs take on them.
Another useful place is the PP forums. Look at the IKRPG sub board, and look for the stickie there with all the collected writings of Doug Seacat. He’s the main writer for the setting, and his word, basically is law. Its got lots of stuff on culture, cosmology, and everything from a to z in the iron kingdoms.

Looks like I have some reading to do!

Deadnight wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

Thanks in advance for your help Dakka, although I have to admit I'm rather anxious about trying something new (not that its a bad thing I guess).

Feel free to come back with questions. We’ll do our best to smash you on the tabletop (whilst playing like gentlemen, of course!) but the PP community is generally very opening and welcoming. Just don’t be anxious about the game. it is a fantastic game to play, and a better world to get lost in 

Thanks, I will

Grey Templar wrote:You'd be ok starting out with Vyross instead of Kaelyssa. I'd still pick up the battle box because of the massive savings it has(and you'll have 2 warcasters instead of one)

After that, you'll want to play games with it. Like 10ish games. Just to get a feel for how the game is played. Do this before getting anything new. If you jump in at the deep end you'll probably choke with the variety and tactical complexity.

Now that you've got the basic mechanics down you can start expanding. Get something simple to expand with. Like an Arcanist solo and a unit of Battle Mages or MHSF.


If you have any device that can use Apps, download Warroom. Its an official PP list building and damage tracking app. The app is free but you'll need to purchase the faction decks(only $8 each) and that will get you all the cards for the entire faction. And any future cards that are released for it while we're still in the current edition.

This way you can build lists and look at cards of models you don't own. Even proxy something if you want to test something out. Its cheaper than buying all the books and physical faction cards.

Yeah, I already downloaded Warroom and was going to get the Ret cards as soon as my rulebook gets here, so that I can play around with it a bit.

BoardroomHero wrote:I'm going to give you the same advice that I give most everyone starting the game:

First, get the rules. Kinda' obvious, and you're doing that. Awesome.

Two, find a community that plays/make one. You're also doing that, excellent.

Three, and this is where things change a bit, get some games in before you start buying too many models. Buy blank bases and use them as proxies to get a feel for how the game plays. Borrow some models from friends. It's very difficult to go from no knowledge of the game to where you can look at the stat line and get a feel for what that really means. It's a real strength of the game, as far as I'm concerned, but it /does/ make it harder to feel out when you're starting.

Of course, you /can/ certainly go the 'traditional' route if you like, picking up the battle box and such. However, I will leave you with an important note on that:

The game plays very differently when you hit higher (35+) points than it does on the very small scale. Yeah, this is expected, but it gives you a somewhat warped picture as to how good things are, and how important certain stats and abilities are. I would suggest moving to 35ish points as soon as you have a good feel for the core rules, that way you can more 'properly' evaluate models and their role/place in an army list.

That all being said, most things go alright with Vyross. You're going to want to lean harder on infantry than you do on warjacks, in my opinion. A lot harder. Retribution in general has far superior infantry than they do warjacks, and a lot of this has to do with their pretty anemic warlock (when you see warlock, it's 'warjack' that has been autocorrected by my computer. Going back and fixing it is getting too tedious) damage values in combination with their high point costs. Their warjacks tend to /do/ a lot of different things, but you pay for each and every one of those things. Now, you'll still want warjacks around to perform those roles, but they're scalpels and special forces, not a mainstay.

Dawnguard sentinels will be something you want sooner rather than later. They're an incredibly hammer, and they're quite the anvil when it comes to resisting most anti-infantry ranged attacks. You also probably want Mage Hunter Infiltrators, as Vyross can help protect them against blast damage, which is pretty commonly used to thin out lightly armored high defense troops. You'll want ranged support of some stripe, but there are a ton of options for that and honestly, they're all very good. Hell, every last troop choice in Retribution is very good with the exception of Riflemen, and even they're acceptable with the new thane that came out (it allows them to ignore stealth, which gives riflemen an actual role).

Uhhh… Everyone else answered your main questions, so do you have anything else? Though we have this kinda' thread pop up pretty often nowadays, I see it as a pretty damn good thing. The PP official forums are also a decent place to get good advice, and the Ret sub forum in particular has been pretty optimistic lately due to the release of some new models that help the faction out significantly.

Oh, a last note on Vyross: Vyross one is kinda' an awkward caster for Ret, and he doesn't play to the strengths of the faction (IMO). As such, do not be too shocked if you start to lean in the direction of other casters sooner rather than later. While he does a couple cool things, I don't feel he synergizes as well as most of the others. This is not to say you can't be successful with him, but it does mean that focusing on him will give you a very different perspective on the faction than if you used other casters. (The main thing is that Vyross does not support ranged options that much, and Retribution is traditionally seen as a combined-arms-favoring-ranged faction.)

Thanks, I'll make sure I get some Dawnguard sentinels after I've had a few games.

Wow, I really appreciate all this information everyone, I'm starting to love this game more and more, and I haven't even played yet!

Another couple of question quickly.

1. I was gonna put Vyros on a bit of slate for his base and maybe play around with the other kits when I get them, to see if I can make the poses more dynamic, but will it cause problems with LoS?

2. How long does the game take to play compared to say 40k or Fantasy where I normally play 1500 and 2500 respectively, since there is way less models on the table, I'd assume it'll be shorter, but how much shorter is the question?

Once again thanks in advance Dakka.

LOS is completely 100% based on the base size. The size of the actual model does not matter. However, you cannot change the base size that the model comes with because of this.

a 35 point game can take 1-2 hours maybe? My friends and I take a lot longer to play because we BS too much. But I think a 35 point tourney has about 90 minutes for rounds if I remember correctly.

And if you are a little fed up with GW, then warmachine is everything GW isn't. Rules and balanced play are their #1 concern.

For other places to check out I'd look at battle college
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/home

And check out the privateer press forums. In the rules area you can get official responses from PP staff and check out the (very minor compared to 40K) errata.

 Mordekiem wrote:
LOS is completely 100% based on the base size. The size of the actual model does not matter. However, you cannot change the base size that the model comes with because of this.

a 35 point game can take 1-2 hours maybe? My friends and I take a lot longer to play because we BS too much. But I think a 35 point tourney has about 90 minutes for rounds if I remember correctly.

And if you are a little fed up with GW, then warmachine is everything GW isn't. Rules and balanced play are their #1 concern.

For other places to check out I'd look at battle college
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/home

And check out the privateer press forums. In the rules area you can get official responses from PP staff and check out the (very minor compared to 40K) errata.

Ahh, so its a magic cylinders type deal?

It is indeed magical cylinders.

As for game length, it really depends on practice a bit. In tournaments they do two timing formats: Timed turns (10min. turns with 5min. extensions per player with a master lcock that lasts about an hour and a half, give or take due to randomenss) and Deathclock (at 50pts, 1hr. each on a chess clcok, your time runs out, you lose).

I would say 35pt. games go for about an hour after you get a hang of things. 50pts. for about 90min.

And stuff.

 Mordekiem wrote:


a 35 point game can take 1-2 hours maybe?

While it could take that long, it really shouldn't. A 35 point game can easily be done in an hour even with normal conversation.

Once you are comfortable with the game you can even do 50 point games in only an hour and a half.

Yesterday I got in three 50 point casual games in in a 6 hour period.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Mordekiem wrote:


a 35 point game can take 1-2 hours maybe?

While it could take that long, it really shouldn't. A 35 point game can easily be done in an hour even with normal conversation.

Once you are comfortable with the game you can even do 50 point games in only an hour and a half.

Yesterday I got in three 50 point casual games in in a 6 hour period.

That is probably a more reasonable assumption. My friends and I get distracted all the time by BSing and we all tend to be the "long thinker" types and are continuously trying out new units and stuff that we are not very familiar with. 2 focused people using lists they are familiar with will take much less time.

So I tried my hand at writing a list today (got the cards off warroom).

Dawnlord Vyros

Chimera

Manticore

Heavy Rifle Team

Mage Hunter Strike Force (Leader + 5)

15 on the nose.

Thoughts?

I'm no expert on Retribution but I'd guess you'll want the Strike Force Commander attachment for the Mage Hunter Strike Force. The attachment lets the entire unit advance deploy and ignore LoS, concealment and cover when shooting, which is part of what makes them so strong - it's very hard to hide things from them.

I'm not sure if you can get three points to squeeze in the last four grunts, or if it'd be worth it. The arc node looks like it might be nice to have; Stranglehold is very cool.

Personally I'd drop the Chimera, turn the Manticore into a Phoenix, and drop the Heavy Rifle Team to get a full MHSF with UA. Because that unit is the tits. But, like HiveFleet, I don't play ret, so take my advice with a lot of salt. ARM 13 from Inviolable Resolve will make it harder for blast damage to kill them (POW 6 seems to be a common blast damage, and that won't kill them on average now) and there'll be no unlucky tests. Hallowed Avenger will allow your Phoenix to scoot on up if they do manage to get some lucky blast scatters onto your stealthed MHSF, and your feat will allow you to cast mobility, upkeep one of those 2 (or neither and cast stranglehold instead through the Phoenix) and cast eliminator which, in combination with the MHSF's efforts on that turn, should be able to deliver a fully fueled Phoenix into the enemy's key piece/caster.

Light Artillery are also pretty poor in the game. The new Steamroller 2014 scenarios might have changed that but its unlikely.

Ok, list take 2.

Dawnlord Vyros

Phoenix

Arcanist

Mage Hunter Strike Force (Leader + 9) with Strike Force Commander.

I like it, you can powerboost half way through your feat turn if your MHSF/caster wiff terribly, or you can do the +2 damage one if they get the three kills necessary to load it up fully.

Just a mini update, everything in my list just got here (except the mage hunters, since they were out of stock) and I can't wait to build some stuff and get to painting.