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Someone brought this up, but I think it may be wrong. But wanted to ask here.

Lash whips state they add 3 initiative during the fight sub-phase. You are set to initiative 1 by charging into cover BEFORE you get to the "fight sub-phase".

So would models with lash whips fight at initiative 4 when charging into cover?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Someone brought this up, but I think it may be wrong. But wanted to ask here.

Lash whips state they add 3 initiative during the fight sub-phase. You are set to initiative 1 by charging into cover BEFORE you get to the "fight sub-phase".

So would models with lash whips fight at initiative 4 when charging into cover?

The Initiative1 is a set value, the +3 is an addition.

Look at Page 2, Multiple Modifiers, for your answer.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Someone brought this up, but I think it may be wrong. But wanted to ask here.

Lash whips state they add 3 initiative during the fight sub-phase. You are set to initiative 1 by charging into cover BEFORE you get to the "fight sub-phase".

So would models with lash whips fight at initiative 4 when charging into cover?

The Initiative1 is a set value, the +3 is an addition.

Look at Page 2, Multiple Modifiers, for your answer.

From the looks of the Assault phase sequence though, the set modifier occurs before you get to the fight sub phase, which is when the +3 occurs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it said,
"Models with a lash Whip get a +3 to initiative" I believe you would be right.

But the +3 is restricted to the fight sub-phase, so does not apply to other initiative tests outside of combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or if it was like the old Furious charge Rules, where it said something like +1 Initiative when they charge, that would also be set back to 1.....

The model has +3 I in the fight sub-phase, however, attacks at I1. So while the model is I+3, it still attacks at I1.

 Happyjew wrote:
The model has +3 I in the fight sub-phase, however, attacks at I1. So while the model is I+3, it still attacks at I1.

Look up when you are set to initiative 1....

Its before the fight sub-phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BRB p. 22


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its a bit ambiguous

HIWPI would definitely be Initiative 1

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The model has +3 I in the fight sub-phase, however, attacks at I1. So while the model is I+3, it still attacks at I1.

Look up when you are set to initiative 1....

Its before the fight sub-phase.

Which of course does not matter to page 2.

The questions we need to ask ourselves:

1) do we have multiple modifiers in effect on my model?

2) what does page 2 tell us?

answer these and you will see that the set value is applied after any additions to a models initiative.

As long as both are in effect it does not matter when they cam into effect, since they both are in effect we must follow page 2.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Its a bit ambiguous

Not at all, if you follow the rules on page 2

As above, set modifiers are last. You don't set to i1 "first"; multiple modifiers are resolved at the same time

What DR said. Timing of the individual modifiers does not matter. When it's time to check what the initiative of the model is, you see what modifiers exist , and apply the rules for multiple modifiers.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The model has +3 I in the fight sub-phase, however, attacks at I1. So while the model is I+3, it still attacks at I1.

Look up when you are set to initiative 1....

Its before the fight sub-phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BRB p. 22


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its a bit ambiguous

HIWPI would definitely be Initiative 1

The rules for charging through difficult terrain does not modify your initiative. Like Unwieldy, it changes when you attack. Normally you attack at your initiative. Lash whips improves your initiative. Difficult terrain does not care what your initiative is, you attack at the initiative 1 step.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
What DR said. Timing of the individual modifiers does not matter. When it's time to check what the initiative of the model is, you see what modifiers exist , and apply the rules for multiple modifiers.

Untrue.

Marker lights.

They are applied after anything else that modifies ballistic skill.

But the way happy described I do believe works in this case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let me clairify why I don't think it works the way the folks citing pg2 are saying, and why it works the way Happy said:

Charging rules state you fight at initiative 1, not that you are initiative 1.

If you charge into cover, but win combat and the enemy unit breaks, you would sweeping advance at the models initiative value. In the case of a hive tyrant with a whip would be initiative 8 for the sweeping advance.

If charging into cover was a stat line modifier, your initiative would be 1, and you would have to sweeping advance at initiative 1.

Subtle difference but a verry important one.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Subtle difference but a verry important one.

No, not at all, page 2 deals with multiple modifiers.

Even if charging through Difficult Terrain set your initiative to 1 (Instead of striking at I 1), it would still be a set value and be applied last.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Subtle difference but a verry important one.

No, not at all, page 2 deals with multiple modifiers.

Even if charging through Difficult Terrain set your initiative to 1 (Instead of striking at I 1), it would still be a set value and be applied last.

Not really, as its not modifying your initiative. Its just telling you when you strike, and not modifying a stat at all. You may be swinging at the initiative 1 step, but your models initiative is still whatever it was before.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Subtle difference but a verry important one.

No, not at all, page 2 deals with multiple modifiers.

Even if charging through Difficult Terrain set your initiative to 1 (Instead of striking at I 1), it would still be a set value and be applied last.

Not really, as its not modifying your initiative. Its just telling you when you strike, and not modifying a stat at all. You may be swinging at the initiative 1 step, but your models initiative is still whatever it was before.

Right, but the point is that all set values in effect are applied last.

If that is something that makes you strike at a specific initiative or if it sets your initiative to a specific value it is a set value and is always applied after multiplication, addition, and subtraction are take into account as per P 2.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Subtle difference but a verry important one.

No, not at all, page 2 deals with multiple modifiers.

Even if charging through Difficult Terrain set your initiative to 1 (Instead of striking at I 1), it would still be a set value and be applied last.

Not really, as its not modifying your initiative. Its just telling you when you strike, and not modifying a stat at all. You may be swinging at the initiative 1 step, but your models initiative is still whatever it was before.

Right, but the point is that all set values in effect are applied last.

If that is something that makes you strike at a specific initiative or if it sets your initiative to a specific value it is a set value and is always applied after multiplication, addition, and subtraction are take into account as per P 2.

Ok last try, then I'll just give up and move on as its largely irrelevant for the question asked.

Pg 2 has nothing to do with this situation. Nothing is being modified, no stat adjusted. Your initiative is still the same as it was before the charge. If the stat was being adjusted you would perform initiative checks of all kinds at Initiative 1 during that round. You don't, so it cant be a stat line modifier as nothing is being modified.

Its like race cars that have different speeds, and one being told it has to start at the back of the pack. Sure it starts last, but it does not go any slower, its just as fast as it was before. Its speed has not been modified in any way.

P. 2 has everything to do with Lash Whips and charging into cover.

P. 2 is how you figure out at what Initiative your models get to make their attacks...

 DeathReaper wrote:
P. 2 has everything to do with Lash Whips and charging into cover.

P. 2 is how you figure out at what Initiative your models get to make their attacks...

Please demonstrate how Pg. 2 is being used when no initiative is being modified.....
no state is being changed, nothing is being added, nothing subtracted, and nothing set to 1.


Yes Pg 2 has to do with adding the +3 from the lash whips, no it has nothing to do with charging into cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Better question:

If you charge into cover, is your models actual initiative stat=1?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
P. 2 has everything to do with Lash Whips and charging into cover.

P. 2 is how you figure out at what Initiative your models get to make their attacks...

Please demonstrate how Pg. 2 is being used when no initiative is being modified.....
no state is being changed, nothing is being added, nothing subtracted, and nothing set to 1.


Yes Pg 2 has to do with adding the +3 from the lash whips, no it has nothing to do with charging into cover.

Page 2 is used because there is a set value in play.

Attacking at I1 is a set value so regardless of what bonuses the model has to its initiative it will always use the set value of 1 when striking as per Page 2

Better question:

If you charge into cover, is your models actual initiative stat=1?

Irrelevant.

but no the models stat is not 1, but they do use the set I value of 1 to make their attacks...

 DeathReaper wrote:

Attacking at I1 is a set value so regardless of what bonuses the model has to its initiative it will always use the set value of 1 when striking as per Page 2

 DeathReaper wrote:

but no the models stat is not 1, but they do use the set I value of 1 to make their attacks...

If no vaule is being set, then charging into cover can not be a set value, pg 2 deals with stat modifications, which is not whats happening.

The second quote is just pure contradiction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway the point is irrelevant.

the effects are the same. on to more pertinent debates.

A value is being set, Initiative.

It is setting a value of Initiative so we know when the model will make its CC attacks.

For other tests you use the models initiative on its stat line as you are only set to I1 for the purposes of making CC attacks.

 DeathReaper wrote:
A value is being set, Initiative.

It is setting a value of Initiative so we know when the model will make its CC attacks.

For other tests you use the models initiative on its stat line as you are only set to I1 for the purposes of making CC attacks.

You'd be totally right if the rule for charging into cover were just worded totally differently......

Why are you arguing semantics that have no effect on gameplay?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Why are you arguing semantics that have no effect on gameplay?

Because we can?

Fair enough, I'll go get some popcorn.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Why are you arguing semantics that have no effect on gameplay?

Like HJ said.. Because I can. Plus debate can be fun.

Also its not just semantics.

If it was an actual stat modifier, then the turn you charged into combat your model would be initiative 1 for all purposes.... Sweeping the enemy, or getting swept as the case may be. Plus any other abilities used during assault that are dependent on initiative.

That's clearly not the case. You're are not modifying a stat, you are just being told regardless of what your stat is, this is when you attack.

It is a stat modifier, for a single purpose. Some modifiers are across the board, some are not. Tzeentch Demons, for example, have a +3 to Leadership for casting psychic powers. Are you going to argue that's not a modifier?

rigeld2 wrote:
It is a stat modifier, for a single purpose. Some modifiers are across the board, some are not. Tzeentch Demons, for example, have a +3 to Leadership for casting psychic powers. Are you going to argue that's not a modifier?

If it says you "Your leadership is ____...." then yes its a stat line modifier.

Charging into cover does not say "your initiative is ____ ", it says "you swing at ___" which is regardless of what your initiative is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just for the sake of debate.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It is a stat modifier, for a single purpose. Some modifiers are across the board, some are not. Tzeentch Demons, for example, have a +3 to Leadership for casting psychic powers. Are you going to argue that's not a modifier?

If it says you "Your leadership is ____...." then yes its a stat line modifier.

Charging into cover does not say "your initiative is ____ ", it says "you swing at ___" which is regardless of what your initiative is.

Just for the sake of debate.

... meaning it's a modifier for one specific situation.

brb wrote:all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers.

Pretty much spells out that it's a set modifier.