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Made in us
Osprey Reader






Can't we just agree to disagree that we can or can't ever agree?
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





staffordshire england

 Juicifer wrote:
Can't we just agree to disagree that we can or can't ever agree?


I don't know if I can agree to that



Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men.
Welcome to Fantasy 40k

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Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
 
   
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

I think all righthtinking people in this forum are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this forum with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not! And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in fr
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






My god, what a collection of bitter veterans! The game is fun, I am having alot of fun playing it. What I see here is people hyperfocusing on the metagame.

Warhammer has been unbalanced left and right since the day it has been conceived, the good thing was thing was that we didn't have the internet to complain, whine and bitch about it.

I remember playing in 1998 with my chaos army getting completely wtf bbq-ed against eldar starcannons.

Its an endless cycle of new codex vs old codex.

The state of the current game is that WE HAVE NEVER been so spoiled with new products, books, models and information.

The prices are ridiculous and they could be lower, but on the other hand, other hobbies cost as much or more than warhammer. Go to the pub every weekend and see how much money you spend there.

End of rant.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 10:42:22


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Australia

 aliusexalio wrote:
The state of the current game is that WE HAVE NEVER been so spoiled with new products, books, models and information.

We have never been so spoiled in our choices of alternatives to GW games and models too

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
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Infiltrating Oniwaban





Fayetteville

 Psienesis wrote:
I think all righthtinking people in this forum are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this forum with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not! And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am.


Bra

vo.

The Imperial Navy, A Galatic Force for Good. 
   
Made in fr
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






 jonolikespie wrote:
 aliusexalio wrote:
The state of the current game is that WE HAVE NEVER been so spoiled with new products, books, models and information.

We have never been so spoiled in our choices of alternatives to GW games and models too


Well I am not stopping the people that wish to do so, but please let them do it quietly and without all the whinging.

Ps. haven't found much else to my liking, maybe flames of war, but that simply isn't in the same ballpark + I think people are forgetting about the fact that alot of us simply like the 40k universe. We liked the video games, we liked the novels and we like the overall setting. Something other games DO NOT have.


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Made in jp
Cosmic Joe





I've been playing since the RT days and I love the game even with its imperfections. Its fun and I have a blast.
I do believe that there are plenty of legitimate criticisms of the rules but it's reached the point where many people's negativity has become toxic for the community and its to the point where it doesn't matter what GW does, people will see it as nothing more than something horrible.

I think we need to focus more on how to have fun with the game. Some have fun by competitiveness and some like fluffy games. There should be room for everyone. Let's find out how to make it work.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





GW needs to stop treating their ruleset like a Saturday Morning Cartoon. It is not just a way to advertise your models. It is the beating heart of your product.

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the guys who buy a box, throw it in the closet and never look at it again provide more business than the people who actually play the game and buy 3 riptides because its super good.

Maybe. But I doubt it.

   
Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

 aliusexalio wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:
 aliusexalio wrote:
The state of the current game is that WE HAVE NEVER been so spoiled with new products, books, models and information.

We have never been so spoiled in our choices of alternatives to GW games and models too


Well I am not stopping the people that wish to do so, but please let them do it quietly and without all the whinging.

Ps. haven't found much else to my liking, maybe flames of war, but that simply isn't in the same ballpark + I think people are forgetting about the fact that alot of us simply like the 40k universe. We liked the video games, we liked the novels and we like the overall setting. Something other games DO NOT have.


That's the thing though, if other games had as interesting fluff there would be no whining, people would just drop GW and move on.

I love the fluff still, I love the universe, hell I still love (most) of the models. I still want to love 40k, but I can't. Mostly because of reasons stated throughout this thread.
Us 'whiners' want the game to improve, we want it to be better so we can enjoy it again. That's why we comment*, if we didn't care we simply wouldn't.


*I don't want to make a thing out of this but the term 'whining' annoys me. Most of the time, at least here on Dakka, people put forth well reasoned arguments and do not carry on in the way the term 'whining' implies.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
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Hungry Little Ripper





Then don't play? I love the game. If it really bugs you THAT much... Don't play! Or do you really enjoy crying over a public forum to total strangers?
   
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Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
Then don't play? I love the game. If it really bugs you THAT much... Don't play! Or do you really enjoy crying over a public forum to total strangers?


Its almost like this is a thread about discussing the problems with 40k...

Strange, people might post reasoned opinions about the state of the game.

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[DCM]
.







Exactly.

The "Go away unless you accept everything" approach is....odd.

Doubly so on a discussion forum.
   
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 MWHistorian wrote:
I've been playing since the RT days and I love the game even with its imperfections. Its fun and I have a blast.
I do believe that there are plenty of legitimate criticisms of the rules but it's reached the point where many people's negativity has become toxic for the community and its to the point where it doesn't matter what GW does, people will see it as nothing more than something horrible.

I think we need to focus more on how to have fun with the game. Some have fun by competitiveness and some like fluffy games. There should be room for everyone. Let's find out how to make it work.

Well said. I haven't been playing quite as long but I definitely feel the same way about the negativity.
   
Made in ca
Hungry Little Ripper





 Blacksails wrote:
 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
Then don't play? I love the game. If it really bugs you THAT much... Don't play! Or do you really enjoy crying over a public forum to total strangers?


Its almost like this is a thread about discussing the problems with 40k...

Strange, people might post reasoned opinions about the state of the game.


I don't see a discussion, I see a lot of whining? This "discussion" has seriously run its course and you guys are just going in circles. There is probably 3-4 threads like this per 2 weeks and just named differently. After that it's not a discussion, it's more collective bitching.
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:

I don't see a discussion, I see a lot of whining? This "discussion" has seriously run its course and you guys are just going in circles. There is probably 3-4 threads like this per 2 weeks and just named differently. After that it's not a discussion, it's more collective bitching.


No, I've seen plenty of good discussion and points. Your interpretation of the discussion does not ring true for others.

Besides, if there are 3-4 threads every two weeks, wouldn't that say something about the gamers and this game? Many of us want to enjoy 40k more, but GW keeps making it harder and harder. Its frustrating to see and many of us are heavily invested in the game.

Maybe for a change, you stop accusing every one with a slightly negative opinion as being a whiner or bitching. Maybe you could contribute in a sensible manner, or not post at all.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in ca
Hungry Little Ripper





 Blacksails wrote:
 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:

I don't see a discussion, I see a lot of whining? This "discussion" has seriously run its course and you guys are just going in circles. There is probably 3-4 threads like this per 2 weeks and just named differently. After that it's not a discussion, it's more collective bitching.


No, I've seen plenty of good discussion and points. Your interpretation of the discussion does not ring true for others.

Besides, if there are 3-4 threads every two weeks, wouldn't that say something about the gamers and this game? Many of us want to enjoy 40k more, but GW keeps making it harder and harder. Its frustrating to see and many of us are heavily invested in the game.

Maybe for a change, you stop accusing every one with a slightly negative opinion as being a whiner or bitching. Maybe you could contribute in a sensible manner, or not post at all.


Why? I have nothing to bitch about. The fact there is 3-4 threads every 2 weeks does say something about some of the gamers yes, that their is a lot of entitled brat's playing 40k. Our FLGS is FULL of people with the totally opposite mind set of this forum and it blows me away. Nobody sits there and complains about Tau, or Eldar, or whatever rule that comes up that is "broken" and "doesn't allow them to win" and forces them to think.

And maybe for a change I stop accusing everyone? LOL I have less then 10 posts. So what's contributing in a sensible manner? Not enjoying my favorite hobby and come online to participate in the tearful circle jerk of bashing GW? Or just enjoy the game, have some beers and some laughs? And accept the fact that the game isn't balanced, won't ever be balanced, and suck it up and have fun. But it seems you're incapable of that.
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

Well you're certainly off to a good start on this forum then.

Funny, everyone I've met in stores thinks 40k is a pretty poor game and agree with much of the mindset of this forum. Most people I've met in person also think that there are broken armies and silly combinations that make them game less enjoyable.

Here's the difference between what I'm doing and what you're doing; I'm discussing the problems of 40k in a thread about the problems with 40k. You, on the other hand, came into this thread and referred to everyone who doesn't agree with you as entitled brats and whiny bitches. Contributing in a sensible manner would be to stop with the personal attacks and either post a reasonable argument about why 40k doesn't have problems, or leave the thread.

Many of us can still enjoy the game, have a few laughs and a pint, but it doesn't change the way some of us feel about the shoddy releases, day one FAQs, pseudo day one DLC, and ever increasing prices. And that's without touching on the issues with the rules and balance.

"Suck it up" is not an argument. Its a cop out. This thread is for discussing the problems of 40k. If you don't like it, don't post.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

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Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
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 Blacksails wrote:
Well you're certainly off to a good start on this forum then.

Funny, everyone I've met in stores thinks 40k is a pretty poor game and agree with much of the mindset of this forum. Most people I've met in person also think that there are broken armies and silly combinations that make them game less enjoyable.

Here's the difference between what I'm doing and what you're doing; I'm discussing the problems of 40k in a thread about the problems with 40k. You, on the other hand, came into this thread and referred to everyone who doesn't agree with you as entitled brats and whiny bitches. Contributing in a sensible manner would be to stop with the personal attacks and either post a reasonable argument about why 40k doesn't have problems, or leave the thread.

Many of us can still enjoy the game, have a few laughs and a pint, but it doesn't change the way some of us feel about the shoddy releases, day one FAQs, pseudo day one DLC, and ever increasing prices. And that's without touching on the issues with the rules and balance.

"Suck it up" is not an argument. Its a cop out. This thread is for discussing the problems of 40k. If you don't like it, don't post.


I referred to everyone who doesn't agree with me as whiny brats... Well, I never really presented anything for people to agree or disagree on based on my opinions but ok kid. Personal attacks? Again, I didn't single anyone out and make it personal. So again, not sure where you're going with this.. It feels like you're the one making it personal and just grasping for straws at this point.

Well that's the difference between your FLGS and mine I guess, we see the cup half full, you see the cup half empty. We have more fun and get more enjoyment, you the latter. Good for you! Also, I posted my opinion on the general constant complaining, and I can post in any public forum stating what I believe as I see fit. So who are you? The forum administrator? No? Then stop. You sound like an donkey-cave. Don't like broken armies or silly combinations? Don't play against them. Simple. Or do you not have any friends to play games with and just rely on the randoms at your FLGS?
   
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United States

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:

I don't see a discussion, I see a lot of whining? This "discussion" has seriously run its course and you guys are just going in circles. There is probably 3-4 threads like this per 2 weeks and just named differently. After that it's not a discussion, it's more collective bitching.


No, I've seen plenty of good discussion and points. Your interpretation of the discussion does not ring true for others.

Besides, if there are 3-4 threads every two weeks, wouldn't that say something about the gamers and this game? Many of us want to enjoy 40k more, but GW keeps making it harder and harder. Its frustrating to see and many of us are heavily invested in the game.

Maybe for a change, you stop accusing every one with a slightly negative opinion as being a whiner or bitching. Maybe you could contribute in a sensible manner, or not post at all.


Why? I have nothing to bitch about. The fact there is 3-4 threads every 2 weeks does say something about some of the gamers yes, that their is a lot of entitled brat's playing 40k. Our FLGS is FULL of people with the totally opposite mind set of this forum and it blows me away. Nobody sits there and complains about Tau, or Eldar, or whatever rule that comes up that is "broken" and "doesn't allow them to win" and forces them to think.

And maybe for a change I stop accusing everyone? LOL I have less then 10 posts. So what's contributing in a sensible manner? Not enjoying my favorite hobby and come online to participate in the tearful circle jerk of bashing GW? Or just enjoy the game, have some beers and some laughs? And accept the fact that the game isn't balanced, won't ever be balanced, and suck it up and have fun. But it seems you're incapable of that.
We've been "sucking it up" for years. That's why GW sales have dropped, why their stock dropped 24%, and why companies like Mantic Games, Privateer Press, and games like Infinity and Malifaux are doing so well.

I do enjoy the game. But when two codices are so much better than the others, it really ceases to be fun.

It circles around to the "why CAN'T the rules be balanced?" argument. Balanced rules are good for everybody, because then we don't have questions and entire sub-forums dedicated to finding the right answer to Games-Workshop's stupid rules. However, since GW doesn't give a rats ass about balance, that won't happen until someone else takes over the company.
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

No, but your opinion is quite clear, and according to your posts you think that people who 'whine' in threads like these represent a lot of entitled brats. You can have a proper discussion without petty name calling of groups of people you disagree with.

I have plenty of fun whenever I play. I also play other games, which helps.

You came into a thread and told people that if they didn't like it to leave. Which seems silly in a thread designed for the purpose of discussing the problems with the game. Its an opinion, sure, but its not relevant to the discussion, nor is it constructive. Also, back to the insulting again.

Remember that your experience at stores/groups is not the same as everyone else. I don't have a FLGS within a sensible drive, and most of my gaming friends are 5 hours away. But understand that this game makes it hard for people to find games with random people where army power levels match up. Turning down games is one solution, but its far from ideal, and that's the point. The game is in such a state that if the solution to poorly balanced armies is to not play them, what does that say to you? Its fine that you have a group to play with that think all alike, but that's not representative of everyone.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in ca
Hungry Little Ripper





I find that expectation to be way too high... How can you expect a game with so many different factions/styles/profiles to reach a point of total balance?

StarCraft has 3 factions, and has never been completely balanced...ever. The way players made up for the slight match up problems was outplaying their opponents in other aspects of the game, through better engagements/tactics/micro.

That's not to say there isn't room for improvement on WH40K obviously, but really now... This game will not ever be totally balanced.

Perhaps the stock also dropped due to a current recession and their prices being so high to begin with? I don't know.
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
I find that expectation to be way too high... How can you expect a game with so many different factions/styles/profiles to reach a point of total balance?

StarCraft has 3 factions, and has never been completely balanced...ever. The way players made up for the slight match up problems was outplaying their opponents in other aspects of the game, through better engagements/tactics/micro.

That's not to say there isn't room for improvement on WH40K obviously, but really now... This game will not ever be totally balanced.

Perhaps the stock also dropped due to a current recession and their prices being so high to begin with? I don't know.


Total balance won't ever be achieved, but a reasonable level of balance could very well be. The gap between C:CSM and Tau, or Eldar and Orks is not healthy. But if the gap was no worse than the difference between say Eldar and Tau (with tweaks) for all armies, everyone would be happier. Not to mention the internal balance, which is also a big problem.

A recession wouldn't bring on a stock drop like that overnight, and other miniature companies are growing significantly, making it clear that its solely GW suffering from their own actions.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

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Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
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Hungry Little Ripper





No i'm sure a recession isn't the entire reason, but it certainly would've helped the stock on its way down.

I could agree with wanting a reasonable level yes... I guess I find a challenge fun though so never really paid attention. I've stomped Tau with C:CSM my fair share of times, I haven't played against a lot of Eldar and Ork is still on a old Dex so their future is TBD.

I've played Eldar a few times... and they aren't so so bad, but when you combine them with Tau then yes I see your point. Our FLGS hates allies and just refuses to even acknowledge that rule exists, so again, a difference of FLGS. Maybe you all should just move here? lol A lot of your problems will disappear
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




" The way players made up for the slight match up problems was outplaying their opponents in other aspects of the game, through better engagements/tactics/micro."

I can also scout my opponent and build counter units. No such luck in this game!
   
Made in ca
Hungry Little Ripper





Martel732 wrote:
" The way players made up for the slight match up problems was outplaying their opponents in other aspects of the game, through better engagements/tactics/micro."

I can also scout my opponent and build counter units. No such luck in this game!


Lol Yeah, it's a little different but you get my point. Myself and people I've watched have won many games they shouldn't have by just outplaying the opponent and not necessarily the army. Play your army, don't expect it to play itself.
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No i'm sure a recession isn't the entire reason, but it certainly would've helped the stock on its way down.

I could agree with wanting a reasonable level yes... I guess I find a challenge fun though so never really paid attention. I've stomped Tau with C:CSM my fair share of times, I haven't played against a lot of Eldar and Ork is still on a old Dex so their future is TBD.

I've played Eldar a few times... and they aren't so so bad, but when you combine them with Tau then yes I see your point. Our FLGS hates allies and just refuses to even acknowledge that rule exists, so again, a difference of FLGS. Maybe you all should just move here? lol A lot of your problems will disappear


I find a challenge fun too, but the internal balance combined with external balance issues means that my ideal Guard army (my old power blob from 5th) is nowhere near the power level of even a properly built 6th ed Guard force, let alone a remotely tooled Tau or Eldar. I want to be able to use any model I want and be on mostly equal footing against whatever my opponent wants to bring. Spartan Games is a good example of this with Firestorm Armada and their internal and external balance. Its not perfect, but its constantly being tweaked with new data.

Ah, so you don't play with Allies, that would help some of the issues with this edition. I agree the execution was poorly done and would likely ignore much of them or tweak them myself. I don't know where 'here' is unfortunately, though I've probably either lived near it and will in the future. I'd love to live near civilization...closest I've got is Winterpeg, but nearly an hour each way for a game is not appealing.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in ca
Hungry Little Ripper





 Blacksails wrote:
 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
No i'm sure a recession isn't the entire reason, but it certainly would've helped the stock on its way down.

I could agree with wanting a reasonable level yes... I guess I find a challenge fun though so never really paid attention. I've stomped Tau with C:CSM my fair share of times, I haven't played against a lot of Eldar and Ork is still on a old Dex so their future is TBD.

I've played Eldar a few times... and they aren't so so bad, but when you combine them with Tau then yes I see your point. Our FLGS hates allies and just refuses to even acknowledge that rule exists, so again, a difference of FLGS. Maybe you all should just move here? lol A lot of your problems will disappear


I find a challenge fun too, but the internal balance combined with external balance issues means that my ideal Guard army (my old power blob from 5th) is nowhere near the power level of even a properly built 6th ed Guard force, let alone a remotely tooled Tau or Eldar. I want to be able to use any model I want and be on mostly equal footing against whatever my opponent wants to bring. Spartan Games is a good example of this with Firestorm Armada and their internal and external balance. Its not perfect, but its constantly being tweaked with new data.

Ah, so you don't play with Allies, that would help some of the issues with this edition. I agree the execution was poorly done and would likely ignore much of them or tweak them myself. I don't know where 'here' is unfortunately, though I've probably either lived near it and will in the future. I'd love to live near civilization...closest I've got is Winterpeg, but nearly an hour each way for a game is not appealing.


Well I understand your point... and agree. Believe me i'd like to use something rather than Muta/Ling/Bling for ZvT in StarCraft but it's just not viable... but in SC2 you just build them, in 40k you shell out more than reasonable amounts of money for them and build/paint them I know. It sucks. You live near Winnipeg? Where bouts? Cause i'm from Winterminusfrickenfortyorfiftypeg lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind, just seen your profile. Portage La Prairie? That's not a terrible drive come on now... Just make a day of it to make it worth it, i'd agree that driving for an hour for a single game wouldn't be worth it but you could make it worth your while!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 16:12:15


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
I find that expectation to be way too high... How can you expect a game with so many different factions/styles/profiles to reach a point of total balance?
For one, the amount of randomness in the game removes player control from aspects of the game which creates uphill or downhill battles based on single dice rolls. Randomness also makes balance extremely hard because if one side rolls really well and the other rolls poorly, the otherwise balanced game can become one sided quickly, turning the game into setup, roll a couple dice for important stuff, loose/win the rolls, pack up and go home.

Secondly, the game has been more balanced in the past, which sets precedent. If the game as always a giant mess with loads of imbalance where the game was decided prior to setup, then people may not have the expectation of balanced fights. It also doesn't help that others have done it better, balancing not only factions, but diverse game mechanics between armies. WarmaHordes has 10 factions with two different game mechanics and from what I can tell is pretty balanced.

Lastly, instead of trying to make balance better, they introduced both Allies and Forgeworld, jumping the number of armies to balance from 15 (11 really, maybe 9) to like 105+ combinations to balance. GW can't throw their hands up in the air about how hard it is to balance 15 armies and then add in Allies increasing the "armies" substantially.

CSM Undivided
CSM Khorne 
   
Made in ca
Hungry Little Ripper





Barfolomew wrote:
 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
I find that expectation to be way too high... How can you expect a game with so many different factions/styles/profiles to reach a point of total balance?
For one, the amount of randomness in the game removes player control from aspects of the game which creates uphill or downhill battles based on single dice rolls. Randomness also makes balance extremely hard because if one side rolls really well and the other rolls poorly, the otherwise balanced game can become one sided quickly, turning the game into setup, roll a couple dice for important stuff, loose/win the rolls, pack up and go home.

Secondly, the game has been more balanced in the past, which sets precedent. If the game as always a giant mess with loads of imbalance where the game was decided prior to setup, then people may not have the expectation of balanced fights. It also doesn't help that others have done it better, balancing not only factions, but diverse game mechanics between armies. WarmaHordes has 10 factions with two different game mechanics and from what I can tell is pretty balanced.

Lastly, instead of trying to make balance better, they introduced both Allies and Forgeworld, jumping the number of armies to balance from 15 (11 really, maybe 9) to like 105+ combinations to balance. GW can't throw their hands up in the air about how hard it is to balance 15 armies and then add in Allies increasing the "armies" substantially.


I agree completely. Allies to me is the dumbest thing they've done and was a step back rather than a step forward... I refuse to use them (Well I can't anyways I main Tyranids) and refuse to play against them...
   
 
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