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So something I have been noticing in my area is that have noticed, but it is only a small group of people (4-5 in total from all the games I play: Warmachine/ Infinity/ Android Netrunner) that have never played any of the Warhammer's as an introduction into the Miniature Wargaming hobby. Only one out of those 4-5 have ever heard of Warhammer before hand, and the rest said they never played it due to price or what they have heard about Games Workshop. Coming from the background of starting from Warhammer but moving onto another game, this is a bit strange to hear, but I understand the reasoning behind those who did not start with Warhammer 40k or Fantasy.

Now, I am not bashing Warhammer in any way, shape, or form, as it is the Game that made Miniature Wargaming more well known (some may debate Mainstream with me, but the most it has gotten is some video games that kind of sold well) and what it is today. My question to this is that if this just an outlier I am looking at in terms of the miniature wargaming community as a major whole, or if this a much more common occurrence that I am looking at in this day and age?

With the crazy startup cost of Warhammer, I can't say I'm surprised that people haven't played it. There are no more easy intro games like Heroquest or Space Crusade, or skirmish level games like Necromunda or Mordheim, so a potential player that is interested in Warhammer is likely to be dissuaded after learning that they'll have to spend $300+ just for a basic starting force.

Compare that to the entry price of Warmachine/Hordes: $50 gets you a battle box with a legal ~15 point force, enough to play real games (as opposed to simplified demo games like you can do with Warhammer's boxed set which often doesn't even give you a legal army). That's not even getting into the rules, where Warmahordes' rules seem to be much better balanced and more fun than 40ks or WHFB.

I don't think it's that strange. I started out albeit 25 years ago playing fantasy games using Prince August home cast dwarves and goblins (don't think 11 year olds are allowed to cast lead minis theses days ). Mostly DnD inspired but no GW.

It was my school mate that got me into gaming. He however had got in the IMHO 2nd most popular way, playing Historicals with his dad/older brother.

6 months later we discovered Bloodbowl then WD93/40k. Then things started to get really crazy.

If I was ten years younger then GW would more like have been the starting poin in the UK. I get the impression you are more likely to find DnD in the US before wargaming.

 notprop wrote:
I don't think it's that strange. I started out albeit 25 years ago playing fantasy games using Prince August home cast dwarves and goblins (don't think 11 year olds are allowed to cast lead minis theses days ). Mostly DnD inspired but no GW.

It was my school mate that got me into gaming. He however had got in the IMHO 2nd most popular way, playing Historicals with his dad/older brother.

6 months later we discovered Bloodbowl then WD93/40k. Then things started to get really crazy.

If I was ten years younger then GW would more like have been the starting poin in the UK. I get the impression you are more likely to find DnD in the US before wargaming.

Yeah, it seems to be more common to play RPGs and Card games in the US (like Magic: The Gathering, DnD, and the sort). Also, I think it is illegal to cast anything with lead these days (metal miniatures are mostly made of Pewter I believe).

Also Wayne, it would make sense how you put it since one does not have to spend a lot at first to get into the game (Of course you will have to spend a little more later, and can get expensive as 40k, when you get up to the higher point levels in Warmahordes, but it is not as bad as 40k and you do have meaningful options if you build it right).

I'd imagine they're the outliers, but that number will probably increase as GW's prices get more and more prohibitive.

I know that if I met someone wanting to get into miniature wargaming, 40k would be the last thing I would recommend. I'd probably recommend something like X Wing or Bolt Action first, which are simpler systems with a far lower startup cost.

GW should be reading this, and be scared to death.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'd imagine they're the outliers, but that number will probably increase as GW's prices get more and more prohibitive.

I know that if I met someone wanting to get into miniature wargaming, 40k would be the last thing I would recommend. I'd probably recommend something like X Wing or Bolt Action first, which are simpler systems with a far lower startup cost.

I pretty much agree with that statement. Although I would say that Warmahordes is also simpler to get into, and Infinity as well, but that is my thought on it and arguing schematics.

Also, I would add that Games Workshop not having the greatest PR and publicity has of the last decade up until now also has an effect deterring people from starting 40k and Fantasy.

Yeah Gw didnt have as much competition once upon a time. And other companys seem to working harder to get your dollar than Gw. So I'm sure it will be a growing trend. Look past the prices and rules griping and look at how customers view them as a company. I hardly ever hear complaints about privater press, though i'm sure they aren't perfect either. Gw needs to gain back the favor of their fan base and look less like a mega corporation thats only focus is $.

 Rotary wrote:
Yeah Gw didnt have as much competition once upon a time. And other companys seem to working harder to get your dollar than Gw. So I'm sure it will be a growing trend. Look past the prices and rules griping and look at how customers view them as a company. I hardly ever hear complaints about privater press, though i'm sure they aren't perfect either. Gw needs to gain back the favor of their fan base and look less like a mega corporation thats only focus is $.

Coupled with the fact that GW put themselves in an almost no-win situation it seems, I can see them almost being overtaken somehow (although if I had to guess, it might be Fantasy Flight Games instead of the well known miniatures companies like Privateer Press, Wyrd, Corvus Belli and the sort due to their line of games they have but that is my view on it).

And Privateer Press does have some complaints: The one you will hear the most is about their Plastics (mention the Convergence of Cyriss Battle Box, and a large majority of the will agree it is the worst in terms of the plastic they have).

Been lurking dakka for a bit and I figure my story would be a good contribution to this thread.

I had heard about miniature wargaming, but never took an interest in it until I started frequenting my FLGS. I went down there for board gaming and wargames were played on the other side of the room. Sometimes I'd go look at what they were doing but usually the wargamers were "those other guys." Eventually I asked some questions to the employees about it and started researching online. I knew about 40K and Fantasy because of the videogames, but had never even heard of Warmachine, Infinity, X-Wing, etc. I was looking up youtube videos about the different systems right around the time of the whole Beasts of War/Miniwargaming controversy. I just straight up decided GW wasn't a company I wanted to give my money to, so I asked the WM/H press ganger at my local store for a demo game, and the rest was history.

Warhammer was the first game I really stuck with, but I think that Battletech might have been my first purchase.
Of course the rules were so thick that my brother and I didn't stick with it long (though we continued buying mechs from time to time) and made the move to Warhammer.

GW is still ubiquitous. Some folks will skip it, quite a few probably start with Warmachine or maybe a different game, but I bet it's still the biggest gateway for new gamers. I wouldn't be surprised if even for many of those who don't choose it as their first game 40k or WHFB was the first wargame they heard of.

 Rotary wrote:
Yeah Gw didnt have as much competition once upon a time. And other companys seem to working harder to get your dollar than Gw.

Not sure I completely agree with this. Maybe the competition is a bit more now, but I recall back in the 90's seeing racks of minis for Warzone that were proportional to the Warmachine minis sections in FLGSs now. Void, Chrnopia, Vor, Celtos, Battletech, etc. They've come and (mostly) gone, but there's always been some company putting a substantial capital (and a large product line) out there gunning for GW's spot.

I'll grant that Warmachine is doing better than some of the others, and GW is doing worse than it used to for a variety of reasons, but serious competition for GW is not a new thing.

I've never played 40k or fantasy. Much like Lucks above me, I read up and a few different systems, heard the reviews of Warmachine from Penny-Arcade and started it.

I've looked at Tomb Kings and thought about creating a Space Marine army of my own design, but everytime I get to pricing it out or looking into the rules, I just lose any drive I had previously. I've filled my fantasy itch by picking up a Hordes faction, and my Science Fiction by picking up Infinity.

In the age of the internet where there a multitudes of games with creators who openly interact with their fan base, there is no reason for the atmosphere of secrecy that GW has built up. That is the most off putting thing now as a seasoned gamer.

I started Miniature Wargaming with Star Wars Miniatures when it was still with Wizards of the Coast because that was the first miniatures game that I experienced when I started going to tabletop gaming stores again after a long hiatus. Soon after Star Wars, I got into Warmachine/Hordes because its mostly what got played at the store I went to on Sundays (Friday nights it was the Star Wars Miniatures game).

But that was mostly just me... most everyone around me who I played with had played 40k or Fantasy as they're earlier experiences in miniatures gaming. I was one of the few exceptions.

Mine was Warhammer. But I can completely understand this trend. I started at the beginning of 6th Edition when the price for a core unit of twenty models was $25. Even then I was saving up for my models. I can't imagine a new player (let alone a new young player) looking at the prices and saying "OK, seems reasonable."

I recently saw some kids (10-14 age bracket I suppose) playing warmachine at my not-quite-local-friendly-gaming-store. I and everyone I know in the hobby got in through GW, but those kids seemed far too young to have already moved on, they started with Warmachine and have bypassed GW entirely.

That is basically the worst possible thing for GW as they rely on the new kids coming in and wasting all their birthday/Christmas money and then moving on, but I think it will be a trend that increases as GW pull support from FLGS and raise the barrier of entry. Less people are buying less GW products and playing less warhammer and that means less people saying 'hey, you should get into warhammer, it's a great game' and more people pushing Warmachine, infinity or dystopian wars.

In the current market, I think you will see this more and more. Not simply because of GW prices, but because of the expanding genres of tabletop games.

Case and point, our gaming group wanted a skirmish game to play once a week. No interest in the fantasy genre, and two of the players were not too keen on sci-fi. So what do the big two offer outside these 2 genres? squat. We went with Pulp City, a super hero skirmish game, then moved to a different super hero skirmish game with better rules (super system 3rd ed).

You have so many games that cover a niche inside a niche like Malifaux or Anima Tactics that people that previously wouldn't play say 40k might pick up a tabletop game.

 Mecha_buddha wrote:
In the current market, I think you will see this more and more. Not simply because of GW prices, but because of the expanding genres of tabletop games.

Case and point, our gaming group wanted a skirmish game to play once a week. No interest in the fantasy genre, and two of the players were not too keen on sci-fi. So what do the big two offer outside these 2 genres? squat. We went with Pulp City, a super hero skirmish game, then moved to a different super hero skirmish game with better rules (super system 3rd ed).

You have so many games that cover a niche inside a niche like Malifaux or Anima Tactics that people that previously wouldn't play say 40k might pick up a tabletop game.

And since GW axed their specialist line, there is more of that chance disgruntled folks who had interest in those games turn there attention to other things. to fill that void.

Off-Topic: If you are looking for a nice Post-Apoc skirmish game, I say give Wreck-age a try.

I'll be sad if 40k gets dropped entirely. I love the fluff and background too much.

Nevie wrote:
I'll be sad if 40k gets dropped entirely. I love the fluff and background too much.

From what I understand, the novels sell quite well and Black Library is one of the divisions of GW that does quite well. So I think that even if there's big shake ups in 40k, the novels and fiction will hopefully survive any big changes.

 frozenwastes wrote:

Nevie wrote:
I'll be sad if 40k gets dropped entirely. I love the fluff and background too much.

From what I understand, the novels sell quite well and Black Library is one of the divisions of GW that does quite well. So I think that even if there's big shake ups in 40k, the novels and fiction will hopefully survive any big changes.

Sadly BL are putting out barely any novels anymore, it's all limited edition hardbacks and digital short stories. When you step back and look at the whole picture it's quite clear GW have pushed their (bad) business practices on BL.

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:



Off-Topic: If you are looking for a nice Post-Apoc skirmish game, I say give Wreck-age a try.

Thanks! We appreciate that sentiment

PS http://wreck-age.net because I can't pass up the opportunity.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I recently saw some kids (10-14 age bracket I suppose) playing warmachine at my not-quite-local-friendly-gaming-store. I and everyone I know in the hobby got in through GW, but those kids seemed far too young to have already moved on, they started with Warmachine and have bypassed GW entirely.

That is basically the worst possible thing for GW as they rely on the new kids coming in and wasting all their birthday/Christmas money and then moving on, but I think it will be a trend that increases as GW pull support from FLGS and raise the barrier of entry. Less people are buying less GW products and playing less warhammer and that means less people saying 'hey, you should get into warhammer, it's a great game' and more people pushing Warmachine, infinity or dystopian wars.

I had a similar experience at my FLGS. There was a kid painting Warpath Marauders, and was asking my friend and I for some painting advice. He said he wanted to play 40k with his friends and move on from MTG, but couldn't afford to. So he was doing it with Mantic models. Not exactly the same - he's playing 40k, but other than books he's not giving money to GW.

Hmmm... the first fantasy miniatures game that I ever played was Chainmail by a company called TSR....

The Auld Grump, mind you, there was no Warhammer, back then....

There are LOTS of wargamers out there that have never touched a GW game, don't confuse players of the high production value wargames ala Warhammer 40k/WHFB, Warmahordes, Flames of War, Infinity, Malifaux, et al with the entire wargaming community. However, for the longest time, Games Workshop was the primary 'gateway' into the wargaming world due to its popularity and visibility, increasingly thats shifting over to Warmahordes due to its lower cost but also things like support from Penny Arcade (at least one of the two creative heads there is a big fan of WMH) and other more 'mainstream' fans giving it 'plugs'. Warmahordes is, in many ways, the 'cool' tabletop wargame to play and has an appeal to not just wargamers, but also Magic players and also the more mainstream video gamer crowds, etc. which is attracting a lot of attention its way from markets that GW was never really able to penetrate.

msears wrote:

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:



Off-Topic: If you are looking for a nice Post-Apoc skirmish game, I say give Wreck-age a try.

Thanks! We appreciate that sentiment

PS http://wreck-age.net because I can't pass up the opportunity.

A little self-promoting are we? Not that I mind, I played a demo of the game a while back last year and I enjoyed it.

Still have not gotten to my free model for painting, but then again I have a lot of things to finish up I got from Christmas. :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
There are LOTS of wargamers out there that have never touched a GW game, don't confuse players of the high production value wargames ala Warhammer 40k/WHFB, Warmahordes, Flames of War, Infinity, Malifaux, et al with the entire wargaming community. However, for the longest time, Games Workshop was the primary 'gateway' into the wargaming world due to its popularity and visibility, increasingly thats shifting over to Warmahordes due to its lower cost but also things like support from Penny Arcade (at least one of the two creative heads there is a big fan of WMH) and other more 'mainstream' fans giving it 'plugs'. Warmahordes is, in many ways, the 'cool' tabletop wargame to play and has an appeal to not just wargamers, but also Magic players and also the more mainstream video gamer crowds, etc. which is attracting a lot of attention its way from markets that GW was never really able to penetrate.

Well, I did not mean it as the WHOLE wargaming community, but what seemed to be the large Majority with the case of High Production values as you mentioned. Although, you do bring up a good point Warmahordes slowly shifting to the 'gateway' into the wargaming world, and I think the video game Privateer Press is teaming up with Whitemoon dreams could possibly get more 'mainstream' attention.

RIght now my no. 1 goto "get them interested in wargaming" route is Bolt Action. WWII is an accessible "IP": everyone knows about it and most kids (and older blokes!) love tanks. It isn't considered a "nerdy" subject in the way sci-fi or fantasy is. And Warlord do some fantastic introductory sets, and a 1000pt army which is the standard isn't huge and daunting, nor expensive. Or if money *really* is the issue, then 1:72 scale plastic stuff which works equally as well with the ruleset is cheap as chips, and everyone remembers Airfix/Revell model tanks and planes. The rules are quick to pick up and fun to play, if not the most original or realistic. As wargames go, it's an easy sell!

My cousin was interested in playing warhammer, but the startup cost is insane - considering some people may lose interest after a few months. 40k/fantasy require a longterm commitment (not something you just dabble in during your spare time).

He and his group of friends have since settled on MTG drafts (bi-weekly). Costs is 20-40 per month depending on the type of drafts - hard to compete with that. Infinity probably has one of the best startup costs though - you pay for a handful of miniis and you have yourself a decent sized force.

I actually started with Warzone back in the day and was kind of forced into Warhammer 40k because of the implosion of Warzone when 2nd Edition hit.

Back then(early 3rd Edition) the game was not terribly expensive as a buy in. Now-a-days, I'd have found something different. More than likely Star Wars: X-wing or Warmachine.

I actually think the cost is less of the reason for people getting in outside of GW (at least not directly). I think the bigger reason is that communities playing other games are becoming more plentiful. Back when I started playing 40k, none of the other mini games really had a following, so despite the cheaper price...buying a game with no following is always more expensive then starting one with a following. Now plenty of other games have large followings and it is not strange to see groups playing x-wing, warmahordes etc. at the local club or shop. So if those groups are playing those and not 40k what game are you going to choose.

Speaking as one who has overcome it... painting can be a big issue for some people.
I remember thinking, "Wow... that game looks cool, it is going to take a TON of time and a TON of money just to get an army painted... no way!"
To a certain extent the boardgame/miniature game crossovers in the last few years have really broken down those barriers. It hasn't been until the end of the blind purchase games that it has really taken off.
Add to that, the quality of prepainted minis (DUST and X-Wing in particular) and you really see miniature games hitting the mainstream.