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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Tonbridge, United Kingdom


Hey guys, question is pretty much in the title there.. but apologies if it's an obvious or dumb question - I've seen quite a bit of lore describing 'restless souls', spirits, shades and stuff like that, especially in the Vampire Counts army book 'Sylvania is rich in the spirits of the dead', or (from the Tomb Banshees page) 'these restless shades cannot pass in to the afterlife.'

So my question is.. is there a WHFB version of heaven/hell/afterlife/underworld? - Or perhaps all the different races have different versions, or beliefs? I can't remember reading anything about the subject, but it seems a bit strange if there's not, considering all you hear concerning souls and spirits and the like.

As always any information is interesting and appreciated. I'm just curious on this subject really, it's been bugging me ^^

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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Nobody really knows what happens with souls.

Unlike in 40k, we don't have the deal where souls enter the Warp upon death and become fuel for the gods. Even the Warriors who die in the Chaos Wastes just disappear if they weren't exalted to Daemonhood.

We might assume that some of the good gods have their own heavens where their devoted followers end up, while those who follow Chaos simply are lost in the, well, chaos.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





Each army book kinda stomps all over this.

I was kinda happy with thinking the Old Ones were the creators of everything and only the real gods other than Chaos. But:

-The Elven Gods are really gods. They do Goddy stuff that clearly isn't Chaos.
-TK has their whole weird soul junk.
-Gork/Mork. Maybe they're Chaos but I don't think so.
-Sigmar
-VC necromancers can do stuff with souls and undead are soul-ly, which seems to show they can be jerked around.

That's just a few off the top of my head. It reminds me of the book Good Omens where all the Egyptian gods that ever were suddenly all became real. So there like 5 sun gods all fighting over the sun like a basketball.

   
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Ghastly Grave Guard





Cambridge, UK

Does WHFRP have anything to say on the subject? I've never played it so I never read the books.

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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Tonbridge, United Kingdom

Thanks for the info guys, it does surprise me a little there's not something similar to 40k like a 'general' underworld/afterlife or something like that, more of a consensus on what happens with the dead, but I suppose everybody having different Gods with their different methods of handling that business does make some sense.

Anyhow, thank you for the clarification = )

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Nimble Pistolier




Australia

Is there anything mentioned about the Lizardmen? I know they worship Sotek(sp?) but also the Old Ones.

 
   
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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Sotek is one of the Old Ones.

http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Old_Ones

a list of all known Old Ones

Caxutuan, the predator, he who stalks the deep jungles
Chotec, Lord of the Sun
Huanchi, Jaguar God of the earth and night
Itzl, god of coolblooded beasts
Quetzl, warrior-defender
Quetli, a warrior-god, Protector of the True Way
Tepok, god of magic and wisdom
Tlanxla, the embodiment of the warlike nature of the Lizardmen, rides to war in a mighty sky-chariot
Tlazcotl, the impassive, patient, and determined
Tzcatli, he who grants strength to a warrior's arm
Tzunki, lord of Water, agility, and keen eyesight
Potec, he who wards against the supernatural
Uxmac, the messenger of the gods
Xapati, whose name is invoked before vengeance is called upon a foe
Xhotl, the chooser of those destined for greatness
Xholankha, the Lost
Xokha, the spirit of stone, the giver of strength, and the Arbiter of Duty
Rigg, the Outcast, mother of Kalith
Conalxa
Inhamex
Yuxa
Sotek, Serpent God

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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sotek isn't an Old One!

He's a Serpent God. Old Ones aren't exactly worshiped. They are revered. They are followed. They were real dudes with real plans who did real things. The Slann had a problem with Sotek because it was some practically barbarian cult.

One of the most significant events in the history of the Lizardmen was the rise of the cult of the Serpent God, Sotek. Traditionally, the gods of the Lizardmen were, and still are, the Old Ones.......Sotek was a new god, an upstart god of the skinks........eclipsing much worship of the mysterious Old Ones

   
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Ghastly Grave Guard





Cambridge, UK

You post and quoting makes them seem to be exactly the same thing...

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Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut






The Realm of Chaos books from the 80s/90s go into it deeply. Sould go into the warp. Should and emotions that are similar group together. When a group of feelings and emotions gets bit enough it becomes self aware. Very common emotions become very large groups, and similar emotional groups band together to become gods.

So sigmar is a god, made from people worshiping him. The sould of people who had strong feelings for sigmar move towards the warp entity that is sigmar when they die.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Tangent wrote:
You post and quoting makes them seem to be exactly the same thing...

A serpent god and an old one are the same thing? Old Ones are space aliens who created life then left. Sotek was heralded by a comet in "modern" times. So his influence is still around. They have nothing whatsoever in common. Sotek has more in common with Sigmar than an Old One.

   
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Regular Dakkanaut




I like to assume the planet WHFB takes place on is a planet within the greater 40k universe. The old ones exist in both games (or they used to in 40k fluff) and they are a space faring race. They seeded the planet with essentially the same races found elsewhere in the 40k universe and maybe they were conducting an experiment.

I'm pretty such GW has said both games are not in the same universe but there are so many parallels it's easy to make them match.

So if that's the case, the souls go to the warp, and if they're elf souls, Slannesh eats them.
   
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But we know that's not true because they've said as much and it doesn't work like that for other races. TK for instance.

You can have your own fluff to it, but that's not canon.

   
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Ghastly Grave Guard





Cambridge, UK

 DukeRustfield wrote:
 Tangent wrote:
You post and quoting makes them seem to be exactly the same thing...

A serpent god and an old one are the same thing? Old Ones are space aliens who created life then left. Sotek was heralded by a comet in "modern" times. So his influence is still around. They have nothing whatsoever in common. Sotek has more in common with Sigmar than an Old One.


No, I mean that you said Sotek isn't an Old One, he's a God. Old Ones aren't worshiped, they're followed and revered and were actual "people." Then you quoted something that says, "The Gods of the Lizardmen were, and still are, the Old Ones." Further, Sotek is a new God, which, according to your quote, would make him an Old One, no? FURTHER, you then quote that Old Ones ARE worshiped.

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Made in bg
Cosmic Joe





Bulgaria

 Tangent wrote:
 DukeRustfield wrote:
 Tangent wrote:
You post and quoting makes them seem to be exactly the same thing...

A serpent god and an old one are the same thing? Old Ones are space aliens who created life then left. Sotek was heralded by a comet in "modern" times. So his influence is still around. They have nothing whatsoever in common. Sotek has more in common with Sigmar than an Old One.


No, I mean that you said Sotek isn't an Old One, he's a God. Old Ones aren't worshiped, they're followed and revered and were actual "people." Then you quoted something that says, "The Gods of the Lizardmen were, and still are, the Old Ones." Further, Sotek is a new God, which, according to your quote, would make him an Old One, no? FURTHER, you then quote that Old Ones ARE worshiped.

See the thing is skinks are mortal got superstitious over the ages, veneration turned to worship and skinks run lizardmen society for the most part. The slaan don't do anything about it because they either don't notice the subtle difference or feel like it'll be a waste of their time since a few generations later the skinks are likely to be doing it again.


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 DukeRustfield wrote:
But we know that's not true because they've said as much and it doesn't work like that for other races. TK for instance.

You can have your own fluff to it, but that's not canon.


Well, Necrons are the TK analogs. Plus we have no clue if across the vast galaxy if anyone is practicing necromancy in 40k, but I bet they are.

Either way you're right that it's not canon, but it makes a lot of sense.
   
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Necrons have nothing to do with TK. They have game mechanic similarities. We know exactly where/when/how both TK and Necrons came about and they are nothing alike. TK creation are more similar to Space Marines than Necrons (i.e., not much).

Further, Sotek is a new God, which, according to your quote, would make him an Old One, no?

Huh? A car moves. A bicycle moves. But that doesn't mean a bicycle is a car. Just because they worship Sotek doesn't mean it's an entirely different species. Orcs worship Gork but that doesn't mean Sotek is Gork. The Old Ones were finite, they knew all of them. There are still Slann around (sorta) who hung out with the Old Ones.

Sotek is never really proven to exist. In the last book, the prophet of sotek had a ward save FROM sotek himself. They took out that quote and now say it's a magic item that gives him the ward. The book makes it possible that the Slann allowed Sotek to be worshipped as a deity because...meh, why not? They didn't record what was stated in the meeting where they decided the fate of Sotek, so right now we don't know. As stated, Skinks are superstitious and short-lived. Slann aren't really bossy bosses, they got more important things to think about, like the universe. So I personally think the Slann were like, "is this a bad thing if they worship this guy?" and ultimately said no.

   
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Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

riburn3 wrote:
 DukeRustfield wrote:
But we know that's not true because they've said as much and it doesn't work like that for other races. TK for instance.

You can have your own fluff to it, but that's not canon.


Well, Necrons are the TK analogs. Plus we have no clue if across the vast galaxy if anyone is practicing necromancy in 40k, but I bet they are.

Either way you're right that it's not canon, but it makes a lot of sense.


When they first created 40k it was a reflection of Fantasy in many ways pertaining to the lore. That was abandoned and I believe I read somewhere in a WD that it was said by the writers many years ago that they were now two separate universes. The sense you describe it making comes from that early connection between the two, and Chaos does still unite them as it is practically the same thing in both games still. I think that's an intentional nod towards how Chaos works. Chaos doesn't observe time or logic. Everything that is has always been, and I believe Malal was described as both being a newer God than the rest, but also always having existed.

In the same way, I believe Chaos supports the logic of being the same canon in two separate games while still saying that they only belong to the one that you happen to be playing at the moment.

 
   
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Ghastly Grave Guard





Cambridge, UK

Nah, Duke, here's what I'm saying:

 DukeRustfield wrote:
One of the most significant events in the history of the Lizardmen was the rise of the cult of the Serpent God, Sotek. Traditionally, the gods of the Lizardmen were, and still are, the Old Ones.......Sotek was a new god, an upstart god of the skinks........eclipsing much worship of the mysterious Old Ones


Old Ones were worshiped, as per your quote here (which you contradicted in the same post that contains this quote). Traditionally, the gods of the Lizardmen were Old Ones, and they still are. That means that Sotek could also be an Old One. The gods are Old Ones - Sotek is a God - Sotek is an Old One.

Do you understand my confusion? According to this quote, Sotek could very well be an Old One.

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 HoverBoy wrote:
 Tangent wrote:
 DukeRustfield wrote:
 Tangent wrote:
You post and quoting makes them seem to be exactly the same thing...

A serpent god and an old one are the same thing? Old Ones are space aliens who created life then left. Sotek was heralded by a comet in "modern" times. So his influence is still around. They have nothing whatsoever in common. Sotek has more in common with Sigmar than an Old One.


No, I mean that you said Sotek isn't an Old One, he's a God. Old Ones aren't worshiped, they're followed and revered and were actual "people." Then you quoted something that says, "The Gods of the Lizardmen were, and still are, the Old Ones." Further, Sotek is a new God, which, according to your quote, would make him an Old One, no? FURTHER, you then quote that Old Ones ARE worshiped.

See the thing is skinks are mortal got superstitious over the ages, veneration turned to worship and skinks run lizardmen society for the most part. The slaan don't do anything about it because they either don't notice the subtle difference or feel like it'll be a waste of their time since a few generations later the skinks are likely to be doing it again.


And here we have the real point the Slann know the difference the rest of the Lizardmen do not. Also the skink priests really do as they please anyway.

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Hmm, this reminds me of a conversation our club had. I'm making a new thread on it, discussing the Gods specifically, not the afterlife.



Age of Sigmar, New World Tournament Ruleset


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Dem orcses go to Da Great Green, where dey's scrap all day long, being watched by Gork (or Mork) and Mork (or Gork), who seldom join da scrap too.

And "regular human" (Empire) souls go to "underworld", where they are "supervised" by Morr himself.
   
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 Tangent wrote:
Old Ones were worshiped, as per your quote here (which you contradicted in the same post that contains this quote). Traditionally, the gods of the Lizardmen were Old Ones, and they still are. That means that Sotek could also be an Old One. The gods are Old Ones - Sotek is a God - Sotek is an Old One.

Do you understand my confusion? According to this quote, Sotek could very well be an Old One.

I don't understand what you're saying. Just because they worship Sotek doesn't mean he's a subset of Old One. I turn a steering wheel and I turn a doorknob but they aren't the same things just because they both turn (are worshipped). And they can just ask some of the relic priests (via telepathy). "Hey, Lord Kroak, did you ever play tennis with an Old One named 'Sotek?'" And he would know yes or no, because they were real, physical beings who hung around eating pizza back in the dawn of the world.

   
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Tonbridge, United Kingdom

Megatronlolol wrote:
Dem orcses go to Da Great Green, where dey's scrap all day long, being watched by Gork (or Mork) and Mork (or Gork), who seldom join da scrap too.

And "regular human" (Empire) souls go to "underworld", where they are "supervised" by Morr himself.


Arrgh I clearly don't know enough = ( ..... who is Morr?

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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Morr is the human god of Death.

http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Morr

His priests are responsible for protecting corpses from Necromancers(using a magic rite that renders the body impossible to raise)

For this reason they take special interest in stopping Vampires as well.

His realm is basically where the dead end up supposedly.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/25 00:32:39


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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canada

retcon in the dark elf book saying slaanesh gets elven souls

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