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But its not like you cant paint over it.

People that want to will
while people that dont want to wont have a sea of grey.

Yeah, I know. Preassembled/prepainted models in some combination could free up time and money for other aspects of development and expand the game to a wider audience.

We don't even have to do away with them entirely. Like I said, more snap together models could form a solid middle ground for hobbists and gamers. Instead of a Tac Marine being a 8 part model, it could become 4 or 5 part model (or even two or three parts). It's a lot less work at the price of customization (but we all know people will kind ways to cut the models up for those who really want to).

It will also save money in building and producing sprues for kits. Fewer bits to hold together and less time spent finding the optimum way to cut up a model for assembly. A Crisis Suit could become a 3 part model in a tiny box with some gun options added into the cit. Glue the head and legs to the torso, guns to the arms, done.

 LordofHats wrote:
Yeah, I know. Preassembled/prepainted models in some combination could free up time and money for other aspects of development and expand the game to a wider audience.

We don't even have to do away with them entirely. Like I said, more snap together models could form a solid middle ground for hobbists and gamers. Instead of a Tac Marine being a 8 part model, it could become 4 or 5 part model (or even two or three parts). It's a lot less work at the price of customization (but we all know people will kind ways to cut the models up for those who really want to).

It will also save money in building and producing sprues for kits. Fewer bits to hold together and less time spent finding the optimum way to cut up a model for assembly. A Crisis Suit could become a 3 part model in a tiny box with some gun options added into the cit. Glue the head and legs to the torso, guns to the arms, done.

It worked for Heroclix, which is still around, though that's preassembled models and such.

D&D ones were just mismanaged horribly by WOTC and sold at a loss.

 Troike wrote:
Yeah... I think that pre-painted kits would, in a way, "dumb things down" a bit too much. A main appeal of 40K is being able to paint your troops up any way you want, and pre-painted kits would discourage that somewhat.

You can have non-painted, non assembled bits for the purists, and pre-painted, pre or partially assembled kits for the lazy parts of the community.

Hasbro knows how to please a fanbase.

They have to put up with the hilariously whiny Transfandom after all.

Ok after talking it over a little and if we take the WotC buyout as a model.

The BRB: Would go to 1/3 Rules, 1/3 Fluff and 1/3 Base Core Units.
>Example: Core Units for Space Marines that would be a Caption, Terminator Squad, Tactical Squads, Assault Squads and Devastators with the Rhino, Land Speeder or Strom Raven and a Land Raider.

2 Months later we would get the first Marine Supplement that would expand the Base Roster, the next Book a month later Orks, then the next book Eldar and so on every month.
A year after the BRB came out we would get Space Marines II: Ultra-Marines, then a month later Orks II: Blood Axes, and do on.

The Starter: They would most likely be with the soft plastic snap fit un-painted or vinyl, but all would be pre-painted.

The Rules themselves:
>Will kill off a lot of Sacred cows selling their rotting meat to Krusty Burger.
>Simplified without dumbing them down.
>Will listen to the fan base when making their choices, but if they make a mistake will stick to their guns and try to fix it with FAQs.
>Frequent FAQs: Complete with an updated book every year.
>Free Starter Rules on line and basic Army Builder: Need to pay for Full Army Builder.
>Electronic Rules Books: Available on PDF Rules. [Which they will shut down for abuse and then later bring back]
>Open Gaming License: The Basic Rules system will now be available for everyone.
>Availability: You will be able to get the Starter at Wall-Mart
>White Dwarf: Suddenly it would be worth it. Each month would have a Battle Report, A new unit or two, and a scenario if it is anything like Dragon Magazine.

Figures:
>Model Kits: Most likely just farm it out to a Model Maker, might even be the same ones who are doing it now.
>Plastic Grab Bags: Could see and I would buy.
>Action Figures: Could see, complete with rules on how to play Warhammer with them. [Did this for Star Wars d20]
>Pre-Painted Sets: Just like all of the others like MLP. You could get 3-6 pre-painted figures per box set.
>Pre-Painted Army Kits: For $99.95 you can just pick up a fully legal 500 point Army, fully painted.

 Sienisoturi wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Never underestimate the stupidity of people who butt in from outside with their "great ideas" to "improve the product". You see it a lot in sports, for example.

Can I have examples please?

Well, one example would be new Soccer rules attempted for US's Major League Soccer because apparently, American attention span can't handle a soccer match. Of course what happened is that actual soccer fans were pissed off and nearly all of those rules were discontinued or never implemented.

Another example would be FIS, International Skiing Federation: for years they have attempted to screw over Cross-country skiing and Alpine skiing with stupid gimmick events which are meant to make them "more TV friendly" but hated by fans and athletes equally: including mass starts for cross-country, and pair competitions. Fortunately, Biathlon has its own federation so they're not subject to FIS whims.

Then there was attempt of consortium led by Bernie Ecclestone (F1 mogul) to take over professional tennis - ITF and ATP. They had lots of ideas again to "make the game more TV friendly", including timed matches, simplified scores and one serve per point. Needless to say, those would have completely ruined the game and fans were horrified to learn about them.

The BRB: Would go to 1/3 Rules, 1/3 Fluff and 1/3 Base Core Units.

I honestly think this is what the BRB should be. They could even cut it further, giving each army basically a blurb of 4 or 5 pages followed by 4-6 pages of core units with a basic war gear list. Boil every army down to its most basic components. Give each army a focus and cut back on their ability to cover multiple points increasing the flavor. No special characters, simple war gear options, simple rules.

Examples of how I'd do it;

Space Marines



Eldar



Tau



Create a simple bare bones version of the game (call it the BRB Standard Rule Set) that is universal to everyone with simple components and pieces. Sell 1000 point packaged army boxes priced around $200 to $250 for each army using the core rules, and lower the barrier to entry to the game and to new armies. It would be easy to balance and maintain making it tournament friendly and easy to revise in later editions. Then release supplements that include new fluff, models, rules, etc.

Example;



And just do a new supplement every 3-4 months. It could give people new rules to play in, new armies to build for those rules, but leave them options for simpler rule sets or more complicated ones if they wanted. It cuts Codex's from the picture and after a time, older rule sets could have simplified versions published in PDF or maybe compilation books for people who missed them when they were live. Supplements could be rereleased with new titles as upgrades to the old ones every 2-3 years. This could replace the current codex system where every 4 months one army gets some love and maybe its yours to several armies getting some love in the same time period with little stuff instead of a full rules update.

Figures:
>Model Kits: Most likely just farm it out to a Model Maker, might even be the same ones who are doing it now.
>Plastic Grab Bags: Could see and I would buy.

The biggest problem for the game though imo, is models cost far too much. Far far too much, and GW likes to make things more complicated. I honestly think the Eldar (and other armies) are blugeoned with a large number of models that only a few people use. Models GW makes anyway in full. Kits could become simpler in the future. 3D printing could eventually reach a point where GW won't have to support a massive model base anymore. For example Howling Banshee Upgrade kit, a kit that can combine with a Guardians kit to make Howling Banshees and save a little a plastic and reduce costs. Instead of an ever growing list of models to support, they can cut off regular production of older model kits that few people buy and then just make them to order later on with a 3D printer.

This could expand the game to include a lot more models without a huge burden on GW to make them constantly, and allow them to experiment with more units at various stages of the game.

 LordofHats wrote:

The BRB: Would go to 1/3 Rules, 1/3 Fluff and 1/3 Base Core Units.

I honestly think this is what the BRB should be. They could even cut it further, giving each army basically a blurb of 4 or 5 pages followed by 4-6 pages of core units with a basic war gear list. Boil every army down to its most basic components. Give each army a focus and cut back on their ability to cover multiple points increasing the flavor. No special characters, simple war gear options, simple rules.

The smart approach would be to go back to the 2nd edition approach of using multiple books. Once you have a real codex, you should be able to leave the fluff and black codex at home.

Oh, and I missed the sacking all their best staff at Christmas.

Hasbro. Lovely company!


I've been gaming for 27 years and not yet come across a worse games company than Hasbro/WOTC. GW are saints by comparison.

 Ugavine wrote:
Oh, and I missed the sacking all their best staff at Christmas.

Hasbro. Lovely company!


I've been gaming for 27 years and not yet come across a worse games company than Hasbro/WOTC. GW are saints by comparison.

Honestly, as strange as it would be, I would feel safer if Disney bought out GW than anyone else. They at least respect their IP's.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Honestly, as strange as it would be, I would feel safer if Disney bought out GW than anyone else. They at least respect their IP's.

That and the epic battle of Mandelorian and Space Marine could finally be settled. Palpatine and Abaddon can duel over who is a bigger douche bag.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Oh, and I missed the sacking all their best staff at Christmas.

Hasbro. Lovely company!


I've been gaming for 27 years and not yet come across a worse games company than Hasbro/WOTC. GW are saints by comparison.

Honestly, as strange as it would be, I would feel safer if Disney bought out GW than anyone else. They at least respect their IP's.

Buyception.

Hasbro buys GW, but Disney buys Hasbro.

To further this, Google buys Disney.

I simply don't see this happening.

GW IP is not in what I'd call a "rock solid" state. In other words the things which have the most value, rules and fluff, are also the things that they have pretty well fethed up lately.

clively wrote:
I simply don't see this happening.

GW IP is not in what I'd call a "rock solid" state. In other words the things which have the most value, rules and fluff, are also the things that they have pretty well fethed up lately.

Given that Hasbro can turn Transformers into something that can gross over a billion dollars with a critically panned movie I'm at this point convinced that they can turn lead into gold.

 Kain wrote:

clively wrote:
I simply don't see this happening.

GW IP is not in what I'd call a "rock solid" state. In other words the things which have the most value, rules and fluff, are also the things that they have pretty well fethed up lately.

Given that Hasbro can turn Transformers into something that can gross over a billion dollars with a critically panned movie I'm at this point convinced that they can turn lead into gold.

Lots of Critically panned movies sell well, it's not a new thing.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

clively wrote:
I simply don't see this happening.

GW IP is not in what I'd call a "rock solid" state. In other words the things which have the most value, rules and fluff, are also the things that they have pretty well fethed up lately.

Given that Hasbro can turn Transformers into something that can gross over a billion dollars with a critically panned movie I'm at this point convinced that they can turn lead into gold.

Lots of Critically panned movies sell well, it's not a new thing.

Getting over a billion is rather difficult.

Although I liked the Transformers trilogy unironically.

My single biggest fear would be pre-painted/pre-assembled models. I'll play with whatever rules people put in front of me (it's really just an excuse to have fun with my friends at this point) and we all pretty much make up the fluff as we go along by this point, but I absolutely love being able to sit down and spend a few hours turning giant sheets of sprues into assembled models complete with some dynamic poses and (basic) conversion work. Then spend a few more hours painting them all. It is the main aspect of the hobby that I don't want to see changed.

That said, I'm not always such a huge fan while I'm doing it...

 dementedwombat wrote:
My single biggest fear would be pre-painted/pre-assembled models. I'll play with whatever rules people put in front of me (it's really just an excuse to have fun with my friends at this point) and we all pretty much make up the fluff as we go along by this point, but I absolutely love being able to sit down and spend a few hours turning giant sheets of sprues into assembled models complete with some dynamic poses and (basic) conversion work. Then spend a few more hours painting them all. It is the main aspect of the hobby that I don't want to see changed.

That said, I'm not always such a huge fan while I'm doing it...

They could easily allow both.

Although I feel that a great deal of elitism would emerge and you'd unfortunately have people being really snobbish about having hand painted and assembled models towards those who just bought them pre-done.

 Kain wrote:
Getting over a billion is rather difficult.

It's not that difficult when you take a top tier director who pretty much has his OWN following (Bay) and turn him loose.

Bay is a master at getting people to pay him to blow things up and I know lots of people that will go see a movie simply because he directed it. Letting him work his magic with well known giant robots from outer space and you are simply printing money. Critics like story lines and continuity. Movie goers, especially the kind that watch movies like this, want to see things go boom. Which it had in spades.

Warhammer has more brand recognition than any other table top game, save the likes of classic board games and D&D. There's value in that, even if the game is suffering. The IP is very valuable, even if GW spends half their time screwing it up.

 Kain wrote:


So you can finally see Megatron fight Marneus Calgar.

Marneus Calgar would die very very quickly and painfully.


I think if Hasbro bought GW out the first thing we would see is a massive drop in prices. Hasbro is a good company, has done well with the IP's it owns and will continue to do so. Not everyone agrees with them, they some times have a hit and miss but they have done well. For Transformers: G1 was great (They killed off almost every Transformer from the 1st 2 seasons in a 90min movie[The controversy of which is the only thing that stopped Duke from also dying in the GI Joe film] ), Beast Wars was a great follow on, Beast Machine's was messy. Japan flourished doing their own thing which then came to the west, the west returned with Transformers Animated which was kid orientated but still held dark tones and the Prime has been one of the best written series since G1 and Beast Wars. They've had 3 good games with Prelude to Energon on the PS2 and then War for Cybertron and Fall of Cybertron on the 360/PS3 and other games were released to the market in Japan alone.

First of all, I don't think Hasbro will buy GW until the LotR license runs out and the stock price continues to drop. Most companies have a licensing retraction statement in the contract if significant changes occur. Hasbro buying GW would be such an event. Someone recently was burned pretty bad by this when they bought a company with several licenses and lost all the licenses, ending up with a multi-million dollar logo by the time it was said and done.

I suspect the Hasbro understands how games need to be both fun and have tight rules. If you look through Hasbro Games (not WotC) you'll see many "staple" games on there that the average person has played (Monopoly, Scrabble, etc.) My only concern with most of these games is that they are inherently balanced (mirrors) and relatively simple. The one game that sticks out to me is Risk, which is at least a war game.

WotC is the arm of Hasbro which probably has the most in common with GW as they serve similar specialized audiences through specialized stores. I think WotC is best equipped to deal with the fluff, restoring the FLGS as a key cog in the product marketing and helping with a tight rule set.

I know the that the local stores would go away. They don't make much money and cost a ton of money to keep and maintain. I suspect as a good faith arrangement with the FLGS, direct sales form Hasbro would not occur, instead following the WotC model of via FLGS or internet company.

I would hope that GW is left to be it's own arm of Hasbro with leadership coming over from WotC and new faces off the street being hired for rules and modeling. Hasbro can leverage it's current distribution and manufacturing system to drive down manufacturing costs, thus allowing them to lower the prices.

I suspect a live action movie would be licensed to "relaunch" the GW brands once the rules and infrastructure are ironed out. Transformers was sort of relaunched with those movies and I think the GW brands need the same thing.

I would hope the Hasbro is smart enough to create a step wise, backwards compatible game system for the GW lines (40K and Fantasy). For example:

Entry level game, think Space Hulk with more players
- Squad level, 2-4, player game with 44 pre-painted, pre-assembled models, 11 for each of 4 factions (SM, Eldar, Ork, Tyranids).
- Expansion(s) are available for other factions (Tau, CSM, Dark Eldar, IG) adding scenarios and armies.
- Total cost for squad game $40, $15 for each expansion.

Skirmish game, think X-wing
- The same models form the squad game can be used
- Make the game a two player game
- Ability to add larger pre-painted models
- Make squads available for $15 each
- Make large models $20 each

Large skirmish game, think 40K
- The same models form the games can be used
- Make the game a two player game
- Make unpainted, unassembled kits for people to put together.
- Give more options in units and higher quality models

Full on Wargame, think Apocalypse
- The same models form the games can be used
- 2 to X player games
- Make some huge models that are only for this game which need to put together and painted.

The game side follows an ever increasing model count and scenario complexity format. The model side follows the RC car model, where entry level is cheap and mass produced, while top end is custom built, but with far more capability.

Backfire wrote:

WotC cleaned up MtG from potentially "offensive" elements (including Demons and card art which could be seen as occult) some years before Hasbro bought them out.

Are you kidding me?

It wouldn't bother me.

GW is currently like the Titanic turning north into icy waters.

Actually, given that Hasbro made a movie out of battleships of all things I think they may very well make a 40k movie.

They'd at the very least expand the brand into other media more aggressively.

I love the fact that my marines come in 8 pieces. Half the fun is the detailed and complex construction of the models.

I even decided to buy Space Marines and Chaos Marines before any Xenos because they're a fair bit bigger assembly wise and easier to manipulate. Ever tried gluing Scourges together? Man they're tiny! Hard to do right off the bat, makes you want to get better and learn new techniques.

Remember that one of the core themes in FB and 40k is the modelling and customization, being able to field an army that is uniquely yours. There are so many different aspects to creating a finished miniature that often it takes enthusiasts to websites like this one in search of more knowledge. We owe a lot to the plastic sprue. To do away with that in the name of "revival" would be ridiculous.

Now on the other hand, games like the LOTR line and The Hobbit would probably greatly benefit from being converted into a preassembled, prepainted thing. The main reason kids don't get into GW is because of the complexity, so give them a viable entry point.

A company like Hasbro could only do poorly for us. Keep in mind any drastic change can't affect the overall look and feel of the models otherwise the visual disparity will further alienate long time collectors. Scale creep has already invalidated some of the older models not to mention that a marine from 3rd and a marine from 6th look so different it's hard for the OCD sufferers to field them together. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who needs his toys to look good together!

All in all this is another reply that's much too long for the quick reply box and I fell like I should wrap it up.

No, I don't think Hasbro or any other toy company would be a good buyer for GW. Another model company perhaps, but never a toy company.

darkcloak wrote:
I love the fact that my marines come in 8 pieces. Half the fun is the detailed and complex construction of the models.

I even decided to buy Space Marines and Chaos Marines before any Xenos because they're a fair bit bigger assembly wise and easier to manipulate. Ever tried gluing Scourges together? Man they're tiny! Hard to do right off the bat, makes you want to get better and learn new techniques.

Remember that one of the core themes in FB and 40k is the modelling and customization, being able to field an army that is uniquely yours. There are so many different aspects to creating a finished miniature that often it takes enthusiasts to websites like this one in search of more knowledge. We owe a lot to the plastic sprue. To do away with that in the name of "revival" would be ridiculous.

Now on the other hand, games like the LOTR line and The Hobbit would probably greatly benefit from being converted into a preassembled, prepainted thing. The main reason kids don't get into GW is because of the complexity, so give them a viable entry point.

A company like Hasbro could only do poorly for us. Keep in mind any drastic change can't affect the overall look and feel of the models otherwise the visual disparity will further alienate long time collectors. Scale creep has already invalidated some of the older models not to mention that a marine from 3rd and a marine from 6th look so different it's hard for the OCD sufferers to field them together. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who needs his toys to look good together!

All in all this is another reply that's much too long for the quick reply box and I fell like I should wrap it up.

No, I don't think Hasbro or any other toy company would be a good buyer for GW. Another model company perhaps, but never a toy company.

...They can easily have both you know. Unassembled and unpainted for those who want customizability, and pre-assembled and pre-painted for the lazy people.

 Wilytank wrote:

Backfire wrote:

WotC cleaned up MtG from potentially "offensive" elements (including Demons and card art which could be seen as occult) some years before Hasbro bought them out.

Are you kidding me?

Spoiler:

Ok, that is pretty metal.

Sire of Insanity sounds great for a Chaos Demon sort of thing.

...They can easily have both you know. Unassembled and unpainted for those who want customizability, and pre-assembled and pre-painted for the lazy people.

That's two different lines to support which if applied across the entire range, is probably more a burden than a benefit. Not every franchise is Gundam and able to support numerous grades of quality and complexity for the same model.

 LordofHats wrote:

...They can easily have both you know. Unassembled and unpainted for those who want customizability, and pre-assembled and pre-painted for the lazy people.

That's two different lines to support which if applied across the entire range, is probably more a burden than a benefit. Not every franchise is Gundam and able to support numerous grades of quality and complexity for the same model.

Yeah, Hasbro won't even bother with that idea. Too much money and effort needed to cater to both types of customers.
They would probably still have the assembled models, I suspect. All of the machinery is still there, and it's cheaper to use what already exists instead of building a whole new series of machines for prepainted minis. They wouldn't even have to pay for paint, because we would