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So we've all been reading the rumors about how some armies may be squated in the new edition, and that this is due to low fantasy sales.

So what do you think can be done to bring Fantasy's numbers back up? Also what do you think caused the crash in sales?

I feel that bringing back Brigade type box sets would be a good start. They always made a great starting point for any army you would like to field, and made buying seem like less of a burden when you could get a good 1500 points to start.

I couldnt tell ya other than how we play it in the OK-TX-KS area, where it seems to be doing really well.

Monthly Tournaments - Paint Competitions - Mega Battles - Use of Expansions.

People really really like their fantasy here. It competes heavily with 40k and as often as not has more players showing up to it's tournaments than its sci-fi cousin.

More doom-saying, eh?

On a serious note, I think a Skirmish ruleset/expansion of WHFB would work well. The biggest complaint about WHFB is its relatively high start-up cost, despite the fact it is meant to be a mass-battles game. Such a ruleset would encourage more people to take their first steps into the world, at least.

But that is one of the main advantages 40k has over WHFB. I can play 40k from 500-3000 points, and it works just fine, all the time (although you do have to use double FoC). That can't really happen with WHFB, at least not as well.

A focus on entry level gaming. A new mordheim scaled game as well as something which would work with 1000-1500ish points so there is a natural progression of gaming to enjoy.

If people are going to have to buy their units 10 minis at a time when they need 30-50 for most units give them a fun engaging way to use them as they build up their forces.

 The Shadow wrote:
More doom-saying, eh?

On a serious note, I think a Skirmish ruleset/expansion of WHFB would work well. The biggest complaint about WHFB is its relatively high start-up cost, despite the fact it is meant to be a mass-battles game. Such a ruleset would encourage more people to take their first steps into the world, at least.

But that is one of the main advantages 40k has over WHFB. I can play 40k from 500-3000 points, and it works just fine, all the time (although you do have to use double FoC). That can't really happen with WHFB, at least not as well.

Fantasy kinda has that built in though.

You increase the # or rare/special copies at higher points, and the Lord/Hero allocation scales.

Small points is harder though, I do admit.

At the GW level more advertising and a skirmish focused entry pack and rules set - something that makes a 500 point game work well and smoothly and can then be scaled up into 1000+ point matches.

They do already do this however at present you need a good 1K in models before it really works.



At the gamer level:

1) Less doomsaying - the more the community focuses on the negative the more those looking to join in will notice and focus upon it.

2) Promote at the local level - tournaments, competitions, growth campaigns* etc... If its not popular locally then get the few who do play to play and promote it - you'll soon help draw in new players in time.

3) Online promotion - painting, army displays, conversations etc... Again more positive reinforcement and activity.



Think of it like a Kickstarter - if the comments of a KS are full of doom and gloom it snowballs into failure and that failure spreads out; even if the developers put in a good word and do well.
If the comments are positive - if the community is enjoying and responding well to the game then things have a much greater chance of attracting new players.


The player base can do a huge amount to promote and increase a player base - heck many of the smaller companies rely almost totally upon the player base spreading their game.

Focus on small scale, the scenario in my sig is the only success I've had recruiting new players lately.

Stop charging money for rules. With all these hardcover rulebooks, its adding a large expense to an already very expensive game. PP sells the rules with the models. They still have softcover (or hardcover if you prefer) fluff books that also contain rules, but they are entirely optional.

Lower prices for core infantry. The points to dollar ratio is way too low for a lot of armies. Core infantry needs to be cheap to buy, I thought that's why GW focused on making them plastic first...

I'd say another year like 2013. A multitude of new plastic kits, 5 Army Books, 1 Multiplayer expansion, 1 story driven Campaign and about a half dozen scenarios/battlefield DLC kept things pretty fresh.

It's been the best year for Fantasy in a long time.

I really enjoyed it as well.

 Red Viper wrote:

Stop charging money for rules. With all these hardcover rulebooks, its adding a large expense to an already very expensive game. PP sells the rules with the models. They still have softcover (or hardcover if you prefer) fluff books that also contain rules, but they are entirely optional.

Not totally true. You need the core rule book for Warmachine or Hordes to actually use the cards that come with the models. In fact it would be more accurate to say that PP charges for core rules, scenarios and fluff whilst giving you free unit stats. Also don't forget that units in those games don't have any optional stats at all - what's on the card is fixed. That isn't saying that GW can't put stats in a free format with models, they could if they wanted to; just that it won't work with cards like in PP games.

More promotion (advertising in GW stores and GW publications doesn't count because anyone who sees those ads is already interested).

Cheaper buy-in. Like for example, single faction starter boxes - kinda like what you'd get in the two player box set, but just one faction and maybe some supporting rules and fluff in a single little 20 page pamphlet style book thing. Starter boxes should be balanced against one another. And, you know, cheap.

Rules supporting smaller scale games, all the way down to the level of two starter boxes facing off, with some possible unit differentiation in the form of upgrades and magic items and such.

Buy in is the biggest problem WHF has right now.

 The Shadow wrote:
More doom-saying, eh?

On a serious note, I think a Skirmish ruleset/expansion of WHFB would work well. The biggest complaint about WHFB is its relatively high start-up cost, despite the fact it is meant to be a mass-battles game. Such a ruleset would encourage more people to take their first steps into the world, at least.

But that is one of the main advantages 40k has over WHFB. I can play 40k from 500-3000 points, and it works just fine, all the time (although you do have to use double FoC). That can't really happen with WHFB, at least not as well.

I can't speak from experience (40k player), but I believe mordeheim(?) is a whfb skirmish game. Never caught my eye until I saw some absolutely stunning tables and asked my self what the heck they where playing. After looking about a bit I found out it was the GW game, mordeheim. Haven't played it or kill team yet but it seems mordeheim is the chicken before the kill team egg. But that's just guesswork, point is it already exists.

 Overread wrote:


Not totally true. You need the core rule book for Warmachine or Hordes to actually use the cards that come with the models. In fact it would be more accurate to say that PP charges for core rules, scenarios and fluff whilst giving you free unit stats. Also don't forget that units in those games don't have any optional stats at all - what's on the card is fixed. That isn't saying that GW can't put stats in a free format with models, they could if they wanted to; just that it won't work with cards like in PP games.

Good points

Well, GW could still charge for the core rules. But it'd be nice if they sold the mini rulebook in store.

 Red Viper wrote:

Well, GW could still charge for the core rules. But it'd be nice if they sold the mini rulebook in store.

Or didn't release the mini rulebook for separate sale until 2-3 years after the BRB comes out...

Less Snobbyness
Be willing to encurage those who showintrest and be intrested back.
We had someone show up for a day of "Open Gaming" and show a few of out 40k players the basics witch we enjoyed, but then when we tried to get them intested in 40k they got...offended???
We are not sure why they have never came back, but they made us feel like they quit becouse we were not willing to give up 40k.
This has happend more than once, each time with a diffent set of WHF players.

Imnewherewheresthebathroom wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
More doom-saying, eh?

On a serious note, I think a Skirmish ruleset/expansion of WHFB would work well. The biggest complaint about WHFB is its relatively high start-up cost, despite the fact it is meant to be a mass-battles game. Such a ruleset would encourage more people to take their first steps into the world, at least.

But that is one of the main advantages 40k has over WHFB. I can play 40k from 500-3000 points, and it works just fine, all the time (although you do have to use double FoC). That can't really happen with WHFB, at least not as well.

I can't speak from experience (40k player), but I believe mordeheim(?) is a whfb skirmish game. Never caught my eye until I saw some absolutely stunning tables and asked my self what the heck they where playing. After looking about a bit I found out it was the GW game, mordeheim. Haven't played it or kill team yet but it seems mordeheim is the chicken before the kill team egg. But that's just guesswork, point is it already exists.

It is indeed a a skirmish level game in the Warhammer World. Unfortunately in terms of the subject of this thread it doesn't allow for every army in the game to use it's models to play. And even some it does are quite limited in what you can use.

The rules linked in Red Vipers signature are closer to what they need to embrace in my opinion. If those were significantly fleshed out they would make an excellent entry platform to WHFB.

a re-release of Warhammer Skirmish in a small box of cheap terrain, maybe.

A gateway game like Warhammer Skirmish would be good to introduce folks into the universe.

Overall though I think when comparing the two universes, 40k just has a broader appeal to players. When first starting the hobby, most people pick their army and game based on style and appearance, not based on rules or which army is the most OP.

I prefer fantasy over 40k, but when I was younger it was the opposite. As I have grown older, I have started to appreciate the Fantasy universe so much more.

1) I agree that there needs to be a better way to play small games. 500 points is the perfect entry-level game size, but it's TERRIBLE. 1,000 is doable, 1,500 is actually kind of fun. But 1,500 is too big a chunk for a starting player to chew off.

It need only be some tiny supplement, perhaps something included with battle boxes and starter kits for free.

2) Speaking of which, they REALLY need to improve battleboxes. They tend to be full of trap choices. I can see the business sense in that, but it's not a great way to get people into the game.

3) SPONSOR TOURNAMENTS. I know that GW hates the tournament scene, but friendly tournaments are the glue that really binds some very vibrant communities together. WotC does a great job at sponsoring these sorts of events, as do independent retailers, but Games Workshop's involvement is startlingly sparse.

I don't think it would take all that much to achieve this either. Perhaps one or two more staff rules designers, whose job it is to keep their ear to the ground in the tournament scene and maintain a list of balance adjustments. Perhaps a few hundred dollars in marketing materials to support tournaments hosting dozens, if not hundreds, of paying customers.

And for feth's sakes, if independent retailers can make money hosting, supporting, and selling merchandise at these events then THIS GOES DOUBLE FOR GW SINCE THEY HAVE BETTER MARGINS.

4) More Warhammer Forge support. The amazing stuff that Forgeworld puts out makes me constantly consider getting back into 40k. All the awesome fantasy models are only supported in Storm of Magic though, and there's never anything new for most of the armies. If they did one cool new unit for one army a year, I think it would do a lot to foster enthusiasm in the community. Bring inactive players back into the fold to try out that "one awesome unit." It's just a micro version of the "my favourite army just got a new rulebook" syndrome, which is already a huge gateway drug for many (I know it's gotten me back into the game a number of times).

5) Better books, and more of them. The Horus Heresy series has driven a huge amount of enthusiasm for 40k, and especially the massively popular horus heresy series. If they did something similar for fantasy I think it would really help.

In doing that, I think they'd really need to play up some of the really iconic aspects of the lore. As it stands it's a little muddy. 40K has the iconic "the Fall of Horus, and his struggle against the Emperor" narrative that's really compelling, and really resonates. Fantasy doesn't have that compelling central narrative. There are certainly compelling ASPECTS of the story, but it's too diffuse. Every army has their little compelling thing, but there's nothing tying it all together. I mean...there ARE things, but they're not as refined as the Horus narrative. Not as powerful. Not as resonant. I think that really helps to strengthen the overall feel of the 40k universe, whereas the WHFB one just seems like a cheap Tolkien knockoff on first glance.

I agree with most of what Pirate said above.

-low point game possibilities.
-tournaments/conventions. I can't believe how much they bowed out of this. If nothing else they should give $ to organizers and established cons if they don't feel it's not their core speciality.

A system of tournaments that are run every year and affect the in game universe. Our alternate it every other year with 40k. Overall winner gets a tiny mention in the background and a limited edition model. Overall results affect in universe backstory marginally

In my own experience, when GW quit doing Ard'Boyz and invitationals, my need for a 100% GW army went out the door, so I started bringing in models from other companies.

A good cheap recaster in the city or cheaper models from other firms . Doesn't matter how "cool" WFB is , when you have to buy multiple 60$ boxs to make a single unit and opticly you get the same effect with half of them. 20 or 25 dudes look just as blocky as 40+ , but the 40+ cost too much.

Remove the need to play with the "center pice models". It is ok if they are there , and it is nice that some have cool rules , but the game shouldn't be about you have to buy 2 phoenix , 2 fangs and 2 blasters , 2 khorn cannons etc to start playing . When an army is better with those , it is cool . But if an army stops working at all , if it doesn't have them it becomes too hard to get new players. Making them buy 100+models , if they aren't ogers , is one think , but making them buy those and and high cost single kits as starter unit is too much .

I don't know about you, but most people LIKE taking "centre-piece" models. They're fun to paint and convert, they're a giant open canvas that you can really go to town on, they help your army "pop" by giving it a big eye-catching attention draw. Without a good centre-piece model you are basically never going to win a best-painted competition with anything but a really bright, shiny, eye-catching colour scheme.

Besides...throwing down $60-90 on one big 250-point monster is no big deal. It's throwing down $70 on 110 points of witch elves or hammerers that's the problem. Or 60 points of zombies for $42. My carrion cost $1/point. That's *ridiculous*.

I don't know about you, but most people LIKE taking "centre-piece" models.

when they are cheap or when they don't have to take them . I will give an example outside of WFB . Cygnar in warmachine is a powerful faction now . There is 1[one] person playing it in a 60+people community . Why? because the first buy any cygnar player has to do for the faction is a stormwall. It doesn't matter how cool stuff looks , if a single model costs as much as half the army people will not want to pick up the faction .

They're fun to paint and convert, they're a giant open canvas that you can really go to town on, they help your army "pop" by giving it a big eye-catching attention draw.

So if you have a paint studio and are doing commissions , those factors are very important , because you can get more money out of painting a single big model then 20 normal dudes.

Besides...throwing down $60-90 on one big 250-point monster is no big deal.

Sure as soon as everyones pay on avarge hits the avarge in UK or US , I will say the same thing . I can buy singles on budged , but center pice models are rarely , if ever cast and they were never in any starter set .

We're talking about how GW should change their business model in respect to WHFB, not what would make you personally buy more budget third-world recasts. It's entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

$-to-point, monsters are often CHEAPER than infantry. $50 buys you a 500-point demon prince, or a...what...60 point chariot? $70 buys you 110 points of witch elves, while $90 buys you a 300 point cauldron + hag.

As for painting, it's not about studio or commissions, it's about hobby. It's much harder to paint an army that will grab people's eye from afar, than it is to paint up a big converted centre-piece that will grab their attention, and hold it with the smaller details that were tougher to see.

To some degree I think they already have done what needs to be done to increase WHFB in popularity. They just need to get it all more worked out and accessible.

1) Skirmish level of the game better flushed out and in the rule book. Having a game that costs 500+ usd and 40+ hours of work to assemble is never going to be really popular. On the other hand if I can get into the base level with 100 usd and 4 hours of assemble time it is not so bad. They can leave the rest of the game alone but they need a lower entry ceiling level game for new players to play and once the newbies get more models (which they always do for variety) they can expand into the actual game.

2) Deals! People like to "save" money even if they spend more in the long run. Bundles that save money and ebooks cheaper than the print book are all things that will make GW more money in the overall scheme.

3) IP recognition. WH40K is recognizable by people who have never even played with toy soldiers. They had a very popular game based on it. Therefore the IPs value increased. Anyone that sees WHFB is going to ask if it is LotR. There is almost no brand recognition. The MMORPG they recently released can really help with this. It would be even better if they could add fun little touches to it like have WHFB games that npcs and players can play in the game (lol). BTW the big models help IP recognition as well as people who come into the door and see a well painted frost phoenix are much more likely to ask about the game than if you have a 100 golden daemon winning elf spearmen who look like any generic fantasy game.

4) Increased release schedule and faster response to rules problems. They have increased the release schedule which help generate excitement and keep people actively involved in the hobby. They need to be better about the rules as ambiguous rules tends to put people off as it increases the learning curve and can cause unfun situations.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
1)
3) SPONSOR TOURNAMENTS. I know that GW hates the tournament scene, but friendly tournaments are the glue that really binds some very vibrant communities together. WotC does a great job at sponsoring these sorts of events, as do independent retailers, but Games Workshop's involvement is startlingly sparse.

I don't think it would take all that much to achieve this either. Perhaps one or two more staff rules designers, whose job it is to keep their ear to the ground in the tournament scene and maintain a list of balance adjustments. Perhaps a few hundred dollars in marketing materials to support tournaments hosting dozens, if not hundreds, of paying customers.

And for feth's sakes, if independent retailers can make money hosting, supporting, and selling merchandise at these events then THIS GOES DOUBLE FOR GW SINCE THEY HAVE BETTER MARGINS.

I was just having this conversation earlier today. One of the main reasons games like MTG and Warmahordes have a lot of support is because the company supports the competitive play.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ansacs wrote:
To some degree I think they already have done what needs to be done to increase WHFB in popularity. They just need to get it all more worked out and accessible.

3) IP recognition. WH40K is recognizable by people who have never even played with toy soldiers. They had a very popular game based on it. Therefore the IPs value increased. Anyone that sees WHFB is going to ask if it is LotR.

Or is that Warcraft

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I couldnt tell ya other than how we play it in the OK-TX-KS area, where it seems to be doing really well.

Monthly Tournaments - Paint Competitions - Mega Battles - Use of Expansions.

People really really like their fantasy here. It competes heavily with 40k and as often as not has more players showing up to it's tournaments than its sci-fi cousin.

Where do you play? I only ask because i live in North Texas right on the border between OK and TX and would like to play in more tourneys.

 ansacs wrote:
To some degree I think they already have done what needs to be done to increase WHFB in popularity. They just need to get it all more worked out and accessible.

1) Skirmish level of the game better flushed out and in the rule book. Having a game that costs 500+ usd and 40+ hours of work to assemble is never going to be really popular. On the other hand if I can get into the base level with 100 usd and 4 hours of assemble time it is not so bad. They can leave the rest of the game alone but they need a lower entry ceiling level game for new players to play and once the newbies get more models (which they always do for variety) they can expand into the actual game.

2) Deals! People like to "save" money even if they spend more in the long run. Bundles that save money and ebooks cheaper than the print book are all things that will make GW more money in the overall scheme.

3) IP recognition. WH40K is recognizable by people who have never even played with toy soldiers. They had a very popular game based on it. Therefore the IPs value increased. Anyone that sees WHFB is going to ask if it is LotR. There is almost no brand recognition. The MMORPG they recently released can really help with this. It would be even better if they could add fun little touches to it like have WHFB games that npcs and players can play in the game (lol). BTW the big models help IP recognition as well as people who come into the door and see a well painted frost phoenix are much more likely to ask about the game than if you have a 100 golden daemon winning elf spearmen who look like any generic fantasy game.

4) Increased release schedule and faster response to rules problems. They have increased the release schedule which help generate excitement and keep people actively involved in the hobby. They need to be better about the rules as ambiguous rules tends to put people off as it increases the learning curve and can cause unfun situations.

One thing they could do is get a few TV cameos of the game. On the Big Bang Theory a few years ago the gang was playing talisman for the opening scene. They could pay to have a few shots of them playing WFB or maybe have an episode about Sheldon getting into the hobby or even just have people playing it in the background of the comic book shop where there is usually at least one scene shot per episode. Given the staggering ratings for that show in the US, that could help.