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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Most of the common Tyranid lists I've been seeing lately have included a few units that don't make much sense to me. I was hoping someone could explain why they're popular choices and/or how they really work.

1. The big one is the Mawloc. I ran this unit with the 5th edition book and was always disappointed. Obviously, the Mawloc is much better now - it ignores cover, it's cheaper, and it can even hit twice. However, the way that the unit functions is still the same...namely, deep strike on top of another unit and hope you don't scatter. Despite the decrease in cost, you're still spending a decent amount of points (and a valuable heavy support slot) on something that will only hit its target 1/3 of the time.
I don't see the appeal in something so unreliable (not to mention it's not effective against vehicles or even good in combat).

2. Hormagaunts without any upgrades. This one I can sort of understand. The basic cost went down AND the cost of toxin sacs went up. However, I feel like naked Hormagaunts don't have enough damage output to even be considered a threat. Against T5 or T6 targets, a full unit of 30 naked Hormagaunts will only cause 1-2 wounds. As a fast tarpit, they're not terrible (although I think Gargoyles are infinitely better).

Most importantly, where does the Tyranid damage come from? Naked Hormagaunts, naked Gargoyles, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes, Tervigons, Termagants, and Mawlocs are all seen in Tyranid lists now. None of these units will deal massive (or reliable) damage to the opponent. Of course, you don't have to destroy the enemy to win the game...but is that how all these Tyranid lists work; tarpit the enemy and hope they can't kill enough models before the game ends?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Portland, OR

I can't speak to the Mawloc, never used it. But the Hormagaunts function as a dirt-cheap, scary fast tarpit that will do just enough damage to soften up a tough unit, then, assuming you play right ,being a Fearless blob of wounds that holds a dangerous foe just long enough for Carnifexes, Stealers, Warriors, Tyrant or whatnot to clean house and annihilate/break and chase down the unit. A blob of thirty or forty models in close combat has a way of causing some serious trouble for many opponents, especially when it's right in the firing corridor they want to be using.
   
Made in us
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster





North Denver

Agreed on the mawloc, we found in our playgroup that there were plenty of ways to seriously hamper it's effectiveness. The Tau player stuffed all his broadsides along table edges, causing the mawloc to consistently scatter off the table was the big one.

Hormagaunts naked are still pretty boss. You can spam them more effectively and we've seen them wipe whole squads of space marines in one combat a few times. It's all about tarpitting or choosing your targets wisely with them. The only T6 I'd really be charging them against either suck in close combat or would still make me happy that it was sitting around smashing cheap bugs one by one.

Fluffwise, yeah, Tyranids SHOULD be just tarpitting and overwhelming the enemy. Haven't you seen the artwork of 2 marines holding off a sea of nids? So cinematic!

Nids are still darn good in CC, especially as other armies move away from building out CC units to favor shooting. They've been given the Venomthrope as a major tool to get them to CC, which is why you see them EVERYWHERE. 3+ cover from screening units is not something to take lightly, even with all the ignores cover stuff in the game nowadays.

I think you're expecting the wrong thing from these units and this army. It's never been about a one-hit punch, it's about a sea of bugs smacking into your army and rolling over them piece by piece.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





But when that Mawloc does hit!! O.. MMYYYYYYEEEE

   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

The thing with Mawlocs is that some people believe that it can use Terror from the Deep from Ongoing Reserves, meaning that if you mishap you have a 50% chance to be able to get the 2 blasts on your next turn, which gives you another potential mishap...

Hormagaunts I don't understand, Termagants are clearly superior.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/22 08:06:35


 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in eu
Regular Dakkanaut





I think the Mawlock is looking rather good.

Find a nice group of expensive targets and deepstrike ontop of them. If you dont kill them all, strike them one more time.
If you still dont kill them all you will misshap. Wich imo is something good. It is 50% chanse that you will end up in ongoing reserve wich mean you can deepstrike again the next turn (turn 3).
Its 33% chanse that the opponent place it somewhere, this really doesnt matter where because on turn 3 you will reburrow. And on turn 4 you can deepstrike again.
Even if you put him out of Synapse range its not a problem. Feed for single models doesnt matter much. He's still fearless and might even get rage.
Sure there is an 17% chanse that he will die, but the whole 40k game is abit random.

I'd say, see him as a dubble tapping artillery pice. That might missfire once in a while.
   
Made in no
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Oslo Norway

The mawloc is also very cheap per wound. He might not be awesomely killy, but he is still a threat and still 6 T6 3+ wounds that need to be killed. Of course, he can also reburrow for more pie plate madness.

I think more than 1 is probably overkill, you will quickly run out of good targets and you are using a very valuable heavy slot.

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I don't understand why you're asking about where the damage is coming from and then listing zoanthropes; they have a S10 lance, one of the best tankbusters in the game (though good luck getting them there.) And have you seen the number of carmifexes and flyrants in lists now? 6+ MCs is obscene.

Why must I always choose beween certain death and probable death. 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Chaos Terminator






Surfing the Tervigon Wave...on a baby.

Ok. My takes on both.

Mawlocs - Being able to do 2 rounds of damage and ignore the minimum 1" distance when being placed is huge. Perhaps not for sniping backline heavy weapon squads (as mentioned, people start placing them on the edges) - but in terms of small backline objective holder units? Nope. Dead. Mawlocs can just wipe them off the objective and in combination with outflanking Stealers or Tervigons you can just waltz in on the objective and call it yours.

The fact they can Terror from reserve and the way the mishap chart works means that a good chance of the time you can have another go.

Mawlocs work fantastically well with this trick against big crowded horde armies like Orks and IG - where if they scatter then it's not such a big deal. They'll get something else and have a good chance to come back.

Hormagaunts - Cheap. Faster now. Fleet by default. Naked they make a better tarpit unit than the non-Fleet Termagants. They can get across the board quick and considering how Synapse functions you want a fast moving screen to be your first wave...and to keep up with Flyrants.


Now only a CSM player. 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

I don't like how everyone's talking about Mawlocs being able to mishap and Terror from the Deep like it can clearly do that and there's no ambiguity in the rules at all.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Chaos Terminator






Surfing the Tervigon Wave...on a baby.

To be fair, we're Tyranid players. We've had ambiguity in our rules since 2nd edition. We've just learned that until they FAQ it and make metal boxes immune to the Shadow in the Warp again that we sort of have to roll with what we get.


Now only a CSM player. 
   
Made in ch
Regular Dakkanaut





I think the Mawloc is popular because it can function as anti-anti-aircraft support by popping up under or near a squad of AA. Lictors can help with the scattering problem, although I'm not sure how effective they are themselves. (Deathleaper is probably the best, although admittedly at the cost of an HQ slot.)

Has anyone tried using Hive Commander to outflank a squad of Hormagaunts? I think that is about the only way I would field a large squad of naked 'gaunts.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't like how everyone's talking about Mawlocs being able to mishap and Terror from the Deep like it can clearly do that and there's no ambiguity in the rules at all.


I'm just wondering where you find the ambiguity (is it in the Mawloc rules, I don't have the book) because I think its pretty clear that units that Deepstrike mishap into ongoing reserve deepstrike again on their next turn (the game breaks if you play it any other way).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Central Oregon

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't like how everyone's talking about Mawlocs being able to mishap and Terror from the Deep like it can clearly do that and there's no ambiguity in the rules at all.


Why do you think it would get a 'skip a turn' penalty?

   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Breng77 wrote:
 PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't like how everyone's talking about Mawlocs being able to mishap and Terror from the Deep like it can clearly do that and there's no ambiguity in the rules at all.


I'm just wondering where you find the ambiguity (is it in the Mawloc rules, I don't have the book) because I think its pretty clear that units that Deepstrike mishap into ongoing reserve deepstrike again on their next turn (the game breaks if you play it any other way).


The first line of the Terror from the Deep rule says that a Mawloc can only choose to use it if it is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, so the question is does deep striking from Ongoing Reserves fulfil that requirement?

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





I can see a little ambiguity but given how ongoing reserves is written it is pretty clear that the unit is in reserves, and it is deepstriking. Which would make it arriving from deep strike reserves. So I'm pretty sure it will be allowed to terror from the deep after a mishap.
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

That is certainly one way to interpret it.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

The mawlock second independent abilaty also places it in ongoing reserves. The abilaty that in the old codex let it re-burry and strike again.

I think this will be sorted out in an faq.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The mawlock second independent abilaty also places it in ongoing reserves. The abilaty that in the old codex let it re-burry and strike again.

I think this will be sorted out in an faq.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/22 14:36:20


   
Made in au
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Brisbane, Australia

1. Mawlocs are an absolutely hard counter to the likes of pathfinders. Don't underestimate how much damage ignoring cover can do for you. furthermore, they have a range of the whole board. 9/10 you don't even want them on the field - roll a 2-4 and you're singing.

2. Homargants skin bare is what, 150 points? that's 30 wounds with fearless. Throw that into the ring against your average wraithknight or riptide, with 3-5 attacks. What've you got? An absolute tarpit that can tarpit on the second turn. And you know what? even if only 6 or 7 gants get into combat with the riptide turn 2-3 because of shooting and overwatch, you'll still tie up that homargant all game, assuming synapse.

Spending hundreds of points on bodies with a 6+ save was never way to go. People are only just wising up to this with nids.

 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight




Siphen wrote:
Against T5 or T6 targets, a full unit of 30 naked Hormagaunts will only cause 1-2 wounds. As a fast tarpit, they're not terrible (although I think Gargoyles are infinitely better).

Remember that most of your opponent's models are not T5 or T6, unless they are running heavy nurgle or a bunch of daemon princes. Alot of people have at least a few crisis suits, firewarriors, necron warriors, space marines, or dire avengers in their army, and against those types 3 attacks at I5 and S3 (each gaunt) on the charge is still pretty effective.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






30 Horms vs Space Marines

90 attacks (WS3 v WS4 = 4+ to hit)
45 hits (S3 v T4 = 5+ to wound)
15 wounds (marines w/ 3+ armor save)
5 dead marines on average

This assumes no casualties from shooting or overwatch (fairly unlikely), the marines are not in cover (because Horms can't get assault grenades), and Horms getting the charge (which is not unlikely).

So your 150 points of Horms kill off 70 points of Space Marines under absolutely ideal circumstances.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/22 15:04:07


 
   
Made in us
World-Weary Pathfinder




 streamdragon wrote:
30 Horms vs Space Marines

90 attacks (WS3 v WS4 = 4+ to hit)
45 hits (S3 v T4 = 5+ to wound)
15 wounds (marines w/ 3+ armor save)
5 dead marines on average

This assumes no casualties from shooting or overwatch (fairly unlikely), the marines are not in cover (because Horms can't get assault grenades), and Horms getting the charge (which is not unlikely).

So your 150 points of Horms kill off 70 points of Space Marines under absolutely ideal circumstances.


I dont see how this is a bad thing? The gants will kill off the marines and then be able to go after something else, or they will tarpit them indefinitely. Either way that squad isnt firing at your TMC's that are coming up the board. Isnt that the whole point of fast cheap troops like gants?

Also if they do kill them, its likely that a 10 man tac squad will net them their points worth if youre strictly going on a point by point basis. Note that even with overwatch those results are likely the same.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 streamdragon wrote:
30 Horms vs Space Marines

90 attacks (WS3 v WS4 = 4+ to hit)
45 hits (S3 v T4 = 5+ to wound)
15 wounds (marines w/ 3+ armor save)
5 dead marines on average

This assumes no casualties from shooting or overwatch (fairly unlikely), the marines are not in cover (because Horms can't get assault grenades), and Horms getting the charge (which is not unlikely).

So your 150 points of Horms kill off 70 points of Space Marines under absolutely ideal circumstances.


Better than a tactical squad lol.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Portland, OR

Colgado wrote:
 streamdragon wrote:
30 Horms vs Space Marines

90 attacks (WS3 v WS4 = 4+ to hit)
45 hits (S3 v T4 = 5+ to wound)
15 wounds (marines w/ 3+ armor save)
5 dead marines on average

This assumes no casualties from shooting or overwatch (fairly unlikely), the marines are not in cover (because Horms can't get assault grenades), and Horms getting the charge (which is not unlikely).

So your 150 points of Horms kill off 70 points of Space Marines under absolutely ideal circumstances.


I dont see how this is a bad thing? The gants will kill off the marines and then be able to go after something else, or they will tarpit them indefinitely. Either way that squad isnt firing at your TMC's that are coming up the board. Isnt that the whole point of fast cheap troops like gants?

Also if they do kill them, its likely that a 10 man tac squad will net them their points worth if youre strictly going on a point by point basis. Note that even with overwatch those results are likely the same.


This last bit sums it up. Unlike almost any other list, Nids are about synergy almost exclusively, if you run a swarm. And about target saturation. last night I played a 1000 points vs, Marines, and my two 50 point Hormagaunt squads won me the game by forcing my opponent to focus on them for almost two full turns, because he understood that if they hit his lines he was simply done playing. I never even lost both broods, and they seriously ate more fire than the entire rest of the army. 100 points, 20 fearless tarpit wounds in two broods no less. Then the Fexes lumbered in and ended the combat.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




aushlo wrote:
Colgado wrote:
 streamdragon wrote:
30 Horms vs Space Marines

90 attacks (WS3 v WS4 = 4+ to hit)
45 hits (S3 v T4 = 5+ to wound)
15 wounds (marines w/ 3+ armor save)
5 dead marines on average

This assumes no casualties from shooting or overwatch (fairly unlikely), the marines are not in cover (because Horms can't get assault grenades), and Horms getting the charge (which is not unlikely).

So your 150 points of Horms kill off 70 points of Space Marines under absolutely ideal circumstances.


I dont see how this is a bad thing? The gants will kill off the marines and then be able to go after something else, or they will tarpit them indefinitely. Either way that squad isnt firing at your TMC's that are coming up the board. Isnt that the whole point of fast cheap troops like gants?

Also if they do kill them, its likely that a 10 man tac squad will net them their points worth if youre strictly going on a point by point basis. Note that even with overwatch those results are likely the same.


This last bit sums it up. Unlike almost any other list, Nids are about synergy almost exclusively, if you run a swarm. And about target saturation. last night I played a 1000 points vs, Marines, and my two 50 point Hormagaunt squads won me the game by forcing my opponent to focus on them for almost two full turns, because he understood that if they hit his lines he was simply done playing. I never even lost both broods, and they seriously ate more fire than the entire rest of the army. 100 points, 20 fearless tarpit wounds in two broods no less. Then the Fexes lumbered in and ended the combat.


Using marines as a measuring stick is a mistake. Marine firepower is meh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/22 15:44:34


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




aushlo wrote:
Colgado wrote:
 streamdragon wrote:
30 Horms vs Space Marines

90 attacks (WS3 v WS4 = 4+ to hit)
45 hits (S3 v T4 = 5+ to wound)
15 wounds (marines w/ 3+ armor save)
5 dead marines on average

This assumes no casualties from shooting or overwatch (fairly unlikely), the marines are not in cover (because Horms can't get assault grenades), and Horms getting the charge (which is not unlikely).

So your 150 points of Horms kill off 70 points of Space Marines under absolutely ideal circumstances.


I dont see how this is a bad thing? The gants will kill off the marines and then be able to go after something else, or they will tarpit them indefinitely. Either way that squad isnt firing at your TMC's that are coming up the board. Isnt that the whole point of fast cheap troops like gants?

Also if they do kill them, its likely that a 10 man tac squad will net them their points worth if youre strictly going on a point by point basis. Note that even with overwatch those results are likely the same.


This last bit sums it up. Unlike almost any other list, Nids are about synergy almost exclusively, if you run a swarm. And about target saturation. last night I played a 1000 points vs, Marines, and my two 50 point Hormagaunt squads won me the game by forcing my opponent to focus on them for almost two full turns, because he understood that if they hit his lines he was simply done playing. I never even lost both broods, and they seriously ate more fire than the entire rest of the army. 100 points, 20 fearless tarpit wounds in two broods no less. Then the Fexes lumbered in and ended the combat.


Target priority. TAC squads should not be shooting at Fexes and hoping to kill them. That is what heavy weapon units are for. Those squads should be shooting those swarms, and those 30 Horms should hit the lines with less than 15 bodies.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Fragile wrote:
aushlo wrote:
Colgado wrote:
 streamdragon wrote:
30 Horms vs Space Marines

90 attacks (WS3 v WS4 = 4+ to hit)
45 hits (S3 v T4 = 5+ to wound)
15 wounds (marines w/ 3+ armor save)
5 dead marines on average

This assumes no casualties from shooting or overwatch (fairly unlikely), the marines are not in cover (because Horms can't get assault grenades), and Horms getting the charge (which is not unlikely).

So your 150 points of Horms kill off 70 points of Space Marines under absolutely ideal circumstances.


I dont see how this is a bad thing? The gants will kill off the marines and then be able to go after something else, or they will tarpit them indefinitely. Either way that squad isnt firing at your TMC's that are coming up the board. Isnt that the whole point of fast cheap troops like gants?

Also if they do kill them, its likely that a 10 man tac squad will net them their points worth if youre strictly going on a point by point basis. Note that even with overwatch those results are likely the same.


This last bit sums it up. Unlike almost any other list, Nids are about synergy almost exclusively, if you run a swarm. And about target saturation. last night I played a 1000 points vs, Marines, and my two 50 point Hormagaunt squads won me the game by forcing my opponent to focus on them for almost two full turns, because he understood that if they hit his lines he was simply done playing. I never even lost both broods, and they seriously ate more fire than the entire rest of the army. 100 points, 20 fearless tarpit wounds in two broods no less. Then the Fexes lumbered in and ended the combat.


Target priority. TAC squads should not be shooting at Fexes and hoping to kill them. That is what heavy weapon units are for. Those squads should be shooting those swarms, and those 30 Horms should hit the lines with less than 15 bodies.


Which heavy weapon units? Many marines lists are using triple TFC now. It's sounding like to me that Xenos can shoot the Nids down, but marines are stuck not having enough firepower.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/22 15:55:12


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
Which heavy weapon units? Many marines lists are using triple TFC now. It's sounding like to me that Xenos can shoot the Nids down, but marines are stuck not having enough firepower.


Then that is their own fault. If your not taking something to handle MCs then you deserve to be eaten. That is poor list construction in a meta with tons of MCs, Wraithknights, Riptides, Daemon Princes. Its not like MCs are that rare.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Fragile wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Which heavy weapon units? Many marines lists are using triple TFC now. It's sounding like to me that Xenos can shoot the Nids down, but marines are stuck not having enough firepower.


Then that is their own fault. If your not taking something to handle MCs then you deserve to be eaten. That is poor list construction in a meta with tons of MCs, Wraithknights, Riptides, Daemon Princes. Its not like MCs are that rare.


I only partially agree. Marines have a lot of trouble bringing enough volume of fire in the current rules set. Marines need efficiency of models badly and the TFC at 100 pts is the most efficient thing in the heavy slot. Most marine lists will probably try to TFC the gaunts and use grav guns on the carifexes. But carifexes take more shots than the average grav gun target.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Colgado wrote:
 streamdragon wrote:
30 Horms vs Space Marines

90 attacks (WS3 v WS4 = 4+ to hit)
45 hits (S3 v T4 = 5+ to wound)
15 wounds (marines w/ 3+ armor save)
5 dead marines on average

This assumes no casualties from shooting or overwatch (fairly unlikely), the marines are not in cover (because Horms can't get assault grenades), and Horms getting the charge (which is not unlikely).

So your 150 points of Horms kill off 70 points of Space Marines under absolutely ideal circumstances.


I dont see how this is a bad thing? The gants will kill off the marines and then be able to go after something else, or they will tarpit them indefinitely. Either way that squad isnt firing at your TMC's that are coming up the board. Isnt that the whole point of fast cheap troops like gants?

Also if they do kill them, its likely that a 10 man tac squad will net them their points worth if youre strictly going on a point by point basis. Note that even with overwatch those results are likely the same.

I wasn't trying to say anything either way, simply running the numbers.

Keep in mind though, that I don't believe for a second that any general worth their salt is letting 30 hormagaunts get in charge range of a Tactical Squad and not double tapping them. Tactical marines rarely have better things to do than shoot little gribblies, it's practically the only they're good at.

Martel732 wrote:Better than a tactical squad lol.
Very true. Also not much of a measuring stick though.

Fragile wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Which heavy weapon units? Many marines lists are using triple TFC now. It's sounding like to me that Xenos can shoot the Nids down, but marines are stuck not having enough firepower.


Then that is their own fault. If your not taking something to handle MCs then you deserve to be eaten. That is poor list construction in a meta with tons of MCs, Wraithknights, Riptides, Daemon Princes. Its not like MCs are that rare.

I agree with you that Triple TFC is overkill. Double TFC + Gravturions seems a much better loadout. TFCs will obliterate little stuff, Gravturions will destroy MCs wholesale. Throw in Gravbikers for Fast Attack (which I see a lot in lists) and you have some series MC killing power.
   
 
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