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Every single person I know or see that plays 40k has no problem with 6th ed. Or if they do they deal with it and still manage to play/enjoy the game. This is a couple dozen or more people covering 2 FLGS and a GW. As far as I can tell, the internet is the only place where 40k is unanimously hated and broken beyond playability.

1. Players who complains that the opponent plays cheese when they are the ones who fail to have any strategies in the first place.
2. People whining about broken rules simply because it "feels" wrong.
3. Fortifications and Escalation...It's definitely fun in non-competitive ways, but not really in competitive play.
4. Tau. Even though I'm a Tau player I feel that they can be too strong.
5. "Casual" gamers who get pissed off after losing a game. Well maybe your "built to be fluffy" and "I don't care about winning" army just isn't the thing for you buddy...if you really wanna win, don't do absolutely ridiculous things...

sand.zzz wrote:
Every single person I know or see that plays 40k has no problem with 6th ed. Or if they do they deal with it and still manage to play/enjoy the game. This is a couple dozen or more people covering 2 FLGS and a GW. As far as I can tell, the internet is the only place where 40k is unanimously hated and broken beyond playability.

I would like you to come and play here. We have 5 stores , even 1 GW . over 100+players , 1/3 of them playing eldar/tau or taudar , 11 screamer star lists and everyone else has play against them or armies that are build to beat those eldar/tau/demons . And FW is illegal here . Nothing beats seeing a noob with his 1500pts , come and see that he wasted 1000+zlotys and that play what you want is a lie and that now he has to buy a proper army .

1. The antiquated patched together rules.
2. People complaining about allies.
3. People complaining that assault is broken.
4. People complaining that the latest codex is overpowered and their codex isn't.
5. E-codexes.

To answer those who asked about my listing of:

1) The power of shooting
2) The USR system

1) I realize in a sci-fi/sci-fantasy setting that whilst shooting may be the most common means to deal with the enemy for MOST armies, not all - the power level of shooting has really ratcheted up, such that it's far easier to remove models of all sorts from the board. Thus, I listed the POWER of shooting.

2) The USR system to me is a tangled mess. How many USR's unlock a list of other USR's? I understand this was an effort to clean up special rules, but unfortunately, it would be easier to reference just a codex with a wacky name for a special rule, than it is to reference the codex and then the rulebook, and then the rulebook again if the USR has a tree of USRs connected to it. I don't have a problem with USR's per se, just the SYSTEM.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
5. Pay to win DLC
4. Allies chart
3. Challenges
2. Wound allocation / look out sir
1. TLOS

This.

/thread.

All the other silliness (such as random charge distances) I can put up with. The above 5 (though the last one not so much, as I loved 5th which also had TLOS) are just dealbreakers which make 40k the craptastic fustercluck it is right now.

5. People complaining about complaints in a thread about complaints
4. Playing 40k by the book. Its great in a casual setting where you just re-rule as necessary to take out anything *stupid*, its just awful if you don't
3. Battle Brothers, allies in general but especially this gak
2. The massive power of shooting in a game with a very melee orientated setting
1. Buffs. Buffs turn the game into combohammer. No buffs means you have to actually use strategy. If you think about it, its really that simple.

Dakkamite wrote: The massive power of shooting in a game with a very melee orientated setting

Wat?

The God-Emperor of Mankind wrote: They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.
– on the Creation of the Space Marines.

 Psienesis wrote:

Dakkamite wrote: The massive power of shooting in a game with a very melee orientated setting

Wat?

The God-Emperor of Mankind wrote: They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.
– on the Creation of the Space Marines.

Yeah, the idea that Wh40k is a melee setting is a great misconception.
Just because some guys specialize in melee combat does not mean that the setting's focus is on swords and axes. If that were the cause, then soldiers with guns would not be so ubiquitous.

 Dakkamite wrote:
1. Buffs. Buffs turn the game into combohammer. No buffs means you have to actually use strategy. If you think about it, its really that simple.

I think people who play Warmachine would disagree on that point. I'm not sure if you're meaning buffs in general or their execution in 40k. I think the first point is incorrect, pretty ambivalent about the second one.

Random charge distance needs to be taken out of the game

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
1. Buffs. Buffs turn the game into combohammer. No buffs means you have to actually use strategy. If you think about it, its really that simple.

I think people who play Warmachine would disagree on that point. I'm not sure if you're meaning buffs in general or their execution in 40k. I think the first point is incorrect, pretty ambivalent about the second one.

I agree . no buffs means army with the highest stats per point is the best one .

Cover is an issue in my mind, simply because I can't believe trees are a better defence against a las cannon than power armour. I'd like to think the increasing amount of ignores cover is to counteract that, but it doesn't 'feel' right

ahzek wrote:
Cover is an issue in my mind, simply because I can't believe trees are a better defence against a las cannon than power armour. I'd like to think the increasing amount of ignores cover is to counteract that, but it doesn't 'feel' right

Think of it not absorbing the shot, but obstructing the firer's view just enough that he shot past the target instead of hitting it.

Ever tried to shoot someone through a bush in an FPS? It's a bit like that. You know the target is behind the bush, but you can barely see him so you just fire full auto and hope some bullets hit.

Granted, a to-hit modifier would have required less of an abstraction, but they had to differentiate the mechanics from WHFB some how.

1) The increased randomness (and random tables). Also, the horrible layout of the rulebook, and the ton of basically pointless rules - such as including Fear and Challenges, yet managing to make both even worse than they are in Fantasy. That's an impressive feat.'
2) Allies. Otherwise known as 'balance, what's that?'.
3) Wound allocation. I'd rather have the 5th edition system - at least that was generally only abusable in a few cases. Now we have idiocy like a character with a 2+ save standing at the front of a squad and absorbing an entire Battle Cannon blast or flamer template.
4) The unnecessary nerfs to close combat. Shooting was dominating in 5th... so we'll make combat even worse. Also, CC is no more unrealistic than Draigo showing up for a dozen different minor skirmishes every day.
5) Flyers

 vipoid wrote:

3) Wound allocation. I'd rather have the 5th edition system - at least that was generally only abusable in a few cases. Now we have idiocy like a character with a 2+ save standing at the front of a squad and absorbing an entire Battle Cannon blast or flamer template.

I'm willing to put up with pretty much any system that doesn't include 10 ridiculously fast and tough Nob bikers who somehow remain at full strength until the squad suffers 11 wounds.

1 - Jerks
2 - gw not understanding the game
3 - jerks
4 - not enough time to play
5 - gw not understanding that people actually want a good game, and not just cool models.

 Melissia wrote:
1: Endless whining.
2: Still no plastic Sisters models.
3-5: Variants of one and two.

This , my two cents here

 TheCustomLime wrote:


2) Raaaandomn taaaaaables. Or random rules in general. They slow down the game so much. Just price whatever benefit you can get and let players agree on what rules the terrain will follow. Night fighting is dumb because it also slows down the game.

This, a thousand times this. Psychic powers have become largely a joke. You either win because you rolled the really stupid broken OP ones or you wasted 25 points (or more) on upgrading your psyker because all your powers ended up being crap. Oh, your warlord who's been leading your army for centuries? He has no f***ing clue how he wants to command today, or how he likes to lead his troops.

I agree with a lot of things said in this thread, but this one I just wanted to doubly agree with.

I'm okay with "Ignores Cover," just not with the prevalence of it and how easily Tau specifically can do it. I also think the prevalence of better-than-AP4 shooting weapons is a little on the crazy side. It used to just be weapons that had potential downsides (imperial plasma) or things you paid through the nose for (Tau Rail rifles) but now it's just on everything, it seems like, all the time.

I would also like to add "SUPER EFFING SLOW RESPONSE TIMES FROM GAMES WORKSHOP." The Dark Angels FAQ hasn't been updated since April of last year, not even when Codex: Space Marines dropped. There are still several glaring errors in the book, or errata that need to be brought in line with Codex: Space Marines rules changes, but nothing. Nada. They haven't issued any major FAQ/Errata pretty much since April. Everything else that's post April has basically been errata'd/FAQ'd since the day the 'dex dropped because it was a typo they realized was in the book before it went to print, rather than something confusing that needed real clarification.

My list of despise:

1. Precision shots can be LOS'd... WHY EVEN BOTHER THEN?
2. First Blood.
3. As anyone else has mentioned: Ignores Cover is cool, but it's everywhere.
4. Monstrous Creatures. I'm drowning in them already.
5. AP3 and fewer is shared like it's candy.
6. Pre-measuring - somewhat. It's good to have a better idea how far you can fire/move, but boy, some people just abuse this feature to a point when it's not fun anymore (the games where the quarter of a millimetre decides the fate of worlds).

The crapton of flyers and rerollable 2++s are my only real complaints about 6th ed. And first blood I guess (it just carries too much weight).

Invuls should be maxed at 3++ if you ask me, with the only possible exception being the dark eldar thingy which goes away with a fail. But even that shouldn't be allowed a re-roll.

1)Rules that are not written focusing on game play, but focused on trying to sell you product.
2)As above.
3)As above.
4)As above
5)As above

 dementedwombat wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

3) Wound allocation. I'd rather have the 5th edition system - at least that was generally only abusable in a few cases. Now we have idiocy like a character with a 2+ save standing at the front of a squad and absorbing an entire Battle Cannon blast or flamer template.

I'm willing to put up with pretty much any system that doesn't include 10 ridiculously fast and tough Nob bikers who somehow remain at full strength until the squad suffers 11 wounds.

Bolded just for you!

Out of a game featuring literally hundreds of units where it is only abusable by a handful of them is a ratio I'm willing to put up with.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

3) Wound allocation. I'd rather have the 5th edition system - at least that was generally only abusable in a few cases. Now we have idiocy like a character with a 2+ save standing at the front of a squad and absorbing an entire Battle Cannon blast or flamer template.

I'm willing to put up with pretty much any system that doesn't include 10 ridiculously fast and tough Nob bikers who somehow remain at full strength until the squad suffers 11 wounds.

Bolded just for you!

Out of a game featuring literally hundreds of units where it is only abusable by a handful of them is a ratio I'm willing to put up with.

The funny thing is, it really isn't any more ridiculous than the current system. I mean, each and every guy shooting putting exactly enough rounds into each guy to kill him, with no overkill, and everyone firing at exactly the next closes guy when he dies. Should probably be something like, closest visible model, then each model closest to the one that died. Or wounds are assigned by the shooter pre-saves, with LOS as an option. Any overkill is lost.

EDIT: Whoops, clicked the wrong thread...

1. Tons of USRs and special wording for it.

I hate to remember that the sword of slaying gives bloodfrenzy which is a combination of rage and fury or whatever. Just increase the damn WS or A-Rating or whatever to make the unit killier. I'm no mathematician, but I bet there are a couple of rules that give you chance-wise almost the same benefit while having very different mechanics.

2. Allies.

What is the unit size we're talking about? As long as you don't play Apocalypse, there are maybe 2-3 platoons on the field. 1/4th of a SM company. A single (and pretty small at that) ork tribe. As long as you're not putting every unit in the codex on the table, there is really no need or sense for allies.

3. No assault when deep-striking, coming from reserves, exiting vehicles etc.

What's the point of deep-striking when you can't immediately get stuck in with the boyz?

4. Random Run/Charge distance.

What is this nonsense? Either you run, or you don't run. But when you move on a battlefield, those legs form rotating circles and contrails form at your helmet's edges. I can't think of a situation where a unit can't or won't run as fast as they can unless they are pinned in which case they have gone to ground anyways.

5. Tons of random rollwork.

Warlord trait, psychic powers, mysterious terrain, objectives, chaos boons, mutations, warpstorms...

 dementedwombat wrote:
I'm willing to put up with pretty much any system that doesn't include 10 ridiculously fast and tough Nob bikers who somehow remain at full strength until the squad suffers 11 wounds.

Thing is, even with wound allocation, Nob Bikers just didn't seem that tough to me in 5th - especially when you consider the cost of the squad (and mandatory warboss). Whilst they could certainly be irritating to face, they never seemed particularly OP.

I mean, a full squad with warboss is about 800pts. Personally, I have little objection to 800pts of models being tanky.

Furthermore, whilst it had a bit of shooting, it was really a dedicated-CC unit. And, in my experience, 800pt CC units aren't hard to beat - especially since the name of the game in 5th was MSU and Transports. "Oh no - your 800pt unit reached my lines and killed a 35pt transport. The Horror!" And, for as resilient as those squads are, I find they're rarely resilient enough - especially when they have to get close to do anything. Yes, the Warboss can absorb some S8 weapons, but he's only got 3 wounds and a 4+/5+ save (4++ with cover, I believe) - and, when he's down to one wound, the ork player will have to start allocating those S8 hits to nobz. Similarly, if you hit the unit with multiple S8 shots, the Warboss can only take 1 of them on himself - any others have good odds of insta-killing nobz. And, by coming close, the unit opens itself up to meltaguns, blasters, rapid-fire plasmaguns etc.

To put it another way, I can easily have 800pts spread out over 8-10 units (including transports). All of those can move around and either target different units, or concentrate their fire on one a big unit. On the other hand, my opponent has 800pts invested in a single unit that can, realistically, only kill one unit per turn. Can it survive to reach my lines and kill some stuff? Sure. Can it survive long enough to devastate my army and make its points back? In my experience, the answer is a resounding 'no'. Hell, I'm not even certain there are enough assault phases in the game to make that practical.

 Kosake wrote:

3. No assault when deep-striking, coming from reserves, exiting vehicles etc.

I can get behind no assaulting from deep-strike (somewhat), but the others bug me.

- Is walking out of a stationary vehicle so stressful that its crew requires a relaxing cup of tea and biscuit, before they can work up the strength to charge something?
- Why do outflanking genestealers obligingly wait around for the enemy to notice and shoot them before attacking? Has the Hive Mind developed a misguided sense of honour now?
- Are Dark Eldar unaccustomed to travelling through their own webways now? You'd think wyches and the like might have learned that charging towards the enemy, even while a bit dizzy, tended to result in surviving. On the other hand, standing outside the webway like a lemon tended to result in them turning into paste. Really, I'd have thought 'survival of the fittest' would have cured this oddity some time ago.

Also, if all of the above are so disorienting, then why do they all allow you to fire your guns without the slightest drop in accuracy? A squad or marines can fall to earth in a drop pod, disembark with their full movement speed (in perfect formation, naturally) and easily obliterate a vehicle with meltaguns. On the other hand, getting out and moving a little bit further is out of the question?

I can only assume that some kind of Space Union is to blame.

 vipoid wrote:
- Why do outflanking genestealers obligingly wait around for the enemy to notice and shoot them before attacking? Has the Hive Mind developed a misguided sense of honour now?

Hey, the Hive Mind accepts challenges. Because that makes sense. The big bad hive tyrant is going to only attack the guy yelling at him, instead of kicking him and all his friends. The hive mind doesn't even have the option of having a gribbly accept the challenge, which I think would make much more sense as an option, any model in synapse could accept (but not issue) a challenge in place of the character.

JPong wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
- Why do outflanking genestealers obligingly wait around for the enemy to notice and shoot them before attacking? Has the Hive Mind developed a misguided sense of honour now?

Hey, the Hive Mind accepts challenges. Because that makes sense. The big bad hive tyrant is going to only attack the guy yelling at him, instead of kicking him and all his friends. The hive mind doesn't even have the option of having a gribbly accept the challenge, which I think would make much more sense as an option, any model in synapse could accept (but not issue) a challenge in place of the character.

I'm more surprised that it doesn't get the option "throw 3 carnifexes at the challenger" - that one has basis in the fluff.

Hull points. I just hate hull points. Everything in 6th edition would be better without them.

I am saying this as a CSM player.