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XenosTerminus wrote:
Notice how I didn't directly reply to your comments.

Yes, I've noticed how you carefully ignore anything that makes your stance look silly and instead just restate the same generic crap that has no basis in reality.

My contribution was an overall comment to Dakka and the general Internet 40k community in general.

No, it's not. It's directed at the people reading this thread (because no one else would read it) and, based on the fact that people have posted to disagree with you, while not addressed to specific people it's safe to assume it's directed at them.

You are getting awfully defensive for something that was clearly not directed at you personally. If you don't care about any of this, why are you replying like you do?

I'm not getting defensive. You're making comments without actually backing them up with reality about people who choose to complain about something. Since I choose to complain about something your comments are directed at me.

I asked you why you think your stance is sane given that, according to you, no one should ever complain. You've failed to explain that.
Instead you decided to wax philosophical to "the general Internet 40k community in general" and not respond to any comments that disagree with you.

This thread was literally created to hear if others think 40k qualifies as a beer and pretzels game. Your first post in the thread, instead of addressing that, mocked someone for deciding to play - even though he has fun doing so - for saying it wasn't a beer and pretzels game. Your black and white viewpoint just has no basis in reality and you're attempting to shove it onto everyone. Please stop.

Yes, I've noticed how you carefully ignore anything that makes your stance look silly and instead just restate the same generic crap that has no basis in reality.

I only feel it is necessary to reply to things that are directly related/relevant to the discussion.

No, it's not. It's directed at the people reading this thread (because no one else would read it) and, based on the fact that people have posted to disagree with you, while not addressed to specific people it's safe to assume it's directed at them.

Now you are making assumptions. I am dealing with generalizations because otherwise it becomes personal. Nothing good comes of that, as noted by how personal you are making this. Clearly something I said has struck a cord, otherwise you wouldn't be at my throat over what amounts to an opinion/observation.

I'm not getting defensive. You're making comments without actually backing them up with reality about people who choose to complain about something. Since I choose to complain about something your comments are directed at me.

I asked you why you think your stance is sane given that, according to you, no one should ever complain. You've failed to explain that.
Instead you decided to wax philosophical to "the general Internet 40k community in general" and not respond to any comments that disagree with you.

Backing what up? My point in this entire thread, other than explaining what I believe the definition of beer and pretzels and how it correlates to 40k is, is how overly negative a large portion of this community is, which breeds complaining. Dakka is renown for being incredibly volatile. The rep here isn't exactly overly positive.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never stated nobody has a right to complain, just that people are complaining incessantly despite the circumstances beyond their control and with blatant solutions to their problems.

This thread was literally created to hear if others think 40k qualifies as a beer and pretzels game. Your first post in the thread, instead of addressing that, mocked someone for deciding to play - even though he has fun doing so - for saying it wasn't a beer and pretzels game. Your black and white viewpoint just has no basis in reality and you're attempting to shove it onto everyone. Please stop.

Mockery? How? And yes, this is very black and white. Complainers are complainers, and negativity breeds negativity.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never stated nobody has a right to complain, just that people are complaining incessantly despite the circumstances beyond their control and with blatant solutions to their problems.

No, you absolutely did say,

XenosTerminus wrote:
What I tire of in every thread that appears with this topic are the poisonous people that show up and bombast the ruleset, yet continue to support the very thing they belittle.

And if they don't support it? Evidently they must enjoy complaining to other hobbyists who often want nothing more than to find the positives/make the experience positive. I really don't know anymore.

So people can't complain if they keep buying it, and can't complain if they don't buy it. Those are your words.

Barfolomew wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Obviously you didn't play the same MtG that I did. I got out of that game faster than water out of the Sun - hated getting my tribal Angel deck's face beaten in by players who had the money and time to build decks that basically were themeless but kicked ass.

Here is the big difference. Using the same cards, WotC has about 8 different official formats one can choose to play. 4 are constructed, 3 are not pre-constructed decks. You have:

With official tournaments
1) Standard Constructed - Runs about $350 uses the 2 most recent blocks
2) Modern Constructed - Runs about $1000 uses the 9 (I think?) most recent blocks, has some banned cards.
3) Legacy Constructed - Runs about $2500 uses everything except for a limited number of banned cards.
4) Vintage Constructed - Runs about $3000 uses everything, though some cards are 1 of.
5) Draft - Runs about $15, open 3 boosters, each player picks a card and passes to their left or right, build your 40 card deck and play
6) Sealed - Runs about $25, open 6 boosters and build a deck

Intended for casual only
7) Commander Constructed - Runs up to $2000(?) uses everything except for a limited number of banned cards.
8) Cube - Runs up to $4000(?) for whomever builds the cube and power level. Everyone drafts, builds decks and plays.

I can also add layers on top of this by playing one of these officially supported formats.
- Two-headed giant
- Planechase
- Archenemy

A lot of people I know attend limited drafts and sealed events, use those cards in Standard Constructed decks (filling out the rest with single card trades or purchases), then move them to a Commander or casual constructed deck once they rotate out of Standard. The card gets multiple uses in multiple formats, even if it under performs at one of them.

If I buy a Space Marine, I can only play 40K and then, I can only play it in a Space Marine army. If my Space Marine army sucks, I'm screwed until they feel like updating it.

Either that stuff didn't exist when I played, or I didn't get into it. I was playing on cafeteria tables in my high school for about 3 years way back in the day (during the Apocalypse set iirc). The game isn't good for that kind of play, it seemed.

rigeld2 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never stated nobody has a right to complain, just that people are complaining incessantly despite the circumstances beyond their control and with blatant solutions to their problems.

No, you absolutely did say,

XenosTerminus wrote:
What I tire of in every thread that appears with this topic are the poisonous people that show up and bombast the ruleset, yet continue to support the very thing they belittle.

And if they don't support it? Evidently they must enjoy complaining to other hobbyists who often want nothing more than to find the positives/make the experience positive. I really don't know anymore.

So people can't complain if they keep buying it, and can't complain if they don't buy it. Those are your words.

Reading comprehension.

Nowhere in my comment do I state nobody has a right to complain. You can do whatever you want.

My point, as written, is that people CONTINUE to complain while simultaneously doing what caused them to complain in the first place, IE I am not happy with some aspect of GW, but still buy their products/use their rules as written.

Or if they don't support it still complain about something they are not invested in anymore.

Nowhere in there did I say they have no RIGHT to complain, just that they are, in fact, complaining regardless of their course of action.

Now, if you are done personally attacking/analyzing my comments out of context, let's move on.

Again with the binary, black and white thinking.

It is possible to like some aspects of a thing while disliking other aspects of a thing.

I find my Nike trainers comfortable to wear, I'm not entirely sure I'm as comfortable with some of the practices they are supposed to employ in their manufacture.

I still own Nike trainers.

 azreal13 wrote:
Again with the binary, black and white thinking.

It is possible to like some aspects of a thing while disliking other aspects of a thing.

I find my Nike trainers comfortable to wear, I'm not entirely sure I'm as comfortable with some of the practices they are supposed to employ in their manufacture.

I still own Nike trainers.

Yeah, that's fine.

But nobody wants to hear you complain about your Nike shoes every time you run a marathon, especially if there are more comfortable shoes available.

XenosTerminus wrote:
My point, as written, is that people CONTINUE to complain while simultaneously doing what caused them to complain in the first place, IE I am not happy with some aspect of GW, but still buy their products/use their rules as written.

Or if they don't support it still complain about something they are not invested in anymore.

Nowhere in there did I say they have no RIGHT to complain, just that they are, in fact, complaining regardless of their course of action.

Now, if you are done personally attacking/analyzing my comments out of context, let's move on.

So why even bring it up when it's completely off topic for the thread?
Either people can complain regardless of having purchased the product or not (and your statement is meaningless), or they can't (and your statements have meaning).

I'm not personally attacking you - I'm trying to understand your thought process that leads to you say things like that.
And again - I have fun with 40k despite the rules, not because of them. Feel free to complain about the fact that I'm going to complain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

XenosTerminus wrote:
But nobody wants to hear you complain about your Nike shoes every time you run a marathon, especially if there are more comfortable shoes available.

This thread says otherwise. The OP even goes into it a little bit.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Again with the binary, black and white thinking.

It is possible to like some aspects of a thing while disliking other aspects of a thing.

I find my Nike trainers comfortable to wear, I'm not entirely sure I'm as comfortable with some of the practices they are supposed to employ in their manufacture.

I still own Nike trainers.

Yeah, that's fine.

But nobody wants to hear you complain about your Nike shoes every time you run a marathon, especially if there are more comfortable shoes available.

The fact that you are acting this shocked about a pretty common aspect of human behavior is far more interesting to me then your actual point.

People complain, even about voluntary things. It's what people do. Part of it is to help establish a shared emotional bond amongst a group.

Sure, there are times it gets annoying, but honestly, you're flame war over it is far more hurtful to people than the complaining.

There it is! I am literally at a 100% 'not surprised' success rate with people using this defense.

Just calling it as I see it.

What defense?

rigeld2 wrote:
What defense?

'you are complaining about complaining'

It's the natural response of someone who is deflecting or excusing their behavior after being called out for behaving a certain way.

XenosTerminus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
What defense?

'you are complaining about complaining'

It's the natural response of someone who is deflecting or excusing their behavior after being called out for behaving a certain way.

I absolutely accept that I'm complaining and still buying the product. I have no issues with it.
I'm trying to understand why you have issues with it. You've failed to explain that so far.

the thing is, it's valid defense on any practical ground.

What is the harm to complaining? It derails threads, and stifles conversations.

What is the harm in complaining about complaining? it derails thread, and stifles conversations.

I suppose you have the joy of feeling morally superior, but when you're doing more to fill a conversation with written feces then anybody else, its hard to think you actually care about the quality of the forum.

rigeld2 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
What defense?

'you are complaining about complaining'

It's the natural response of someone who is deflecting or excusing their behavior after being called out for behaving a certain way.

I absolutely accept that I'm complaining and still buying the product. I have no issues with it.
I'm trying to understand why you have issues with it. You've failed to explain that so far.

It's impossible to have a mature/adult conversation in these forums pertaining to any topic related to GW rules without someone complaining.

Perhaps that means this isn't the right place for me, and I can accept that.

But life is stressful enough. Work, Marriage, Kids, etc.. the last thing I need is to walk into a maelstrom of negativity over something that is honestly supposed to be fun, and an escape from the actual problems in life.

But really, quite honestly, complaining is tiresome and irritating. I have a 3 year old. Guess what he does a lot? The last thing I want to hear is a bunch of grown men complaining over plastic army men.

I fully endorse and embrace actual discussions on this game and most things involved with it. I don't enjoy seeing what could be legitimate discussions on improving/making the best out of an admittedly imperfect game manifest into outlets for people to lash out and relieve stress.

TLDR, negativity sucks

XenosTerminus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
What defense?

'you are complaining about complaining'

It's the natural response of someone who is deflecting or excusing their behavior after being called out for behaving a certain way.

I absolutely accept that I'm complaining and still buying the product. I have no issues with it.
I'm trying to understand why you have issues with it. You've failed to explain that so far.

It's impossible to have a mature/adult conversation in these forums pertaining to any topic related to GW rules without someone complaining.

Perhaps that means this isn't the right place for me, and I can accept that.

But life is stressful enough. Work, Marriage, Kids, etc.. the last thing I need is to walk into a maelstrom of negativity over something that is honestly supposed to be fun, and an escape from the actual problems in life.

But really, quite honestly, complaining is tiresome and irritating. I have a 3 year old. Guess what he does a lot? The last thing I want to hear is a bunch of grown men complaining over plastic army men.

I fully endorse and embrace actual discussions on this game and most things involved with it. I don't enjoy seeing what could be legitimate discussions on improving/making the best out of an admittedly imperfect game manifest into outlets for people to lash out and relieve stress.

TLDR, negativity sucks

It probably isn't the place for you, given you seem to believe anyone with a negative opinion is just whining and complaining rather than voicing their opinion. Most of the time, they even back it up with facts.

Edit* Part of having an adult conversation is recognizing 2 different things. One, everything isn't always sunshine and rainbows. Two, some people will always believe something different than you, calling them names and accusing them of whining and complaining doesn't solve that.

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's impossible to have a mature/adult conversation in these forums pertaining to any topic related to GW rules without someone complaining.

I don't think that's true at all - unless you're talking about any level of complaining (ie, GW rules suck. This rule right here, what if it was worded like this?).

I fully endorse and embrace actual discussions on this game and most things involved with it. I don't enjoy seeing what could be legitimate discussions on improving/making the best out of an admittedly imperfect game manifest into outlets for people to lash out and relieve stress.

So - and I'm honestly curious, not asking for any other reason - why bother reading and posting in a thread that started out negative?

Using your own statements, you know what disappoints you, you know what's coming (based off the tone of the first post) and yet you continued to read and post, knowing nothing would change.

XenosTerminus wrote:
TLDR, negativity sucks

yet you have turned this thread almost entirely into a discussion about how you hate negativity.

Do you not see the inherent hypocrisy in that? Other people have jobs, and relationships, and responsibilies. Others want to have conversations without flamewars derailing them.

And you deny that. Over your desires.

Who is the three year old now?

 Polonius wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
TLDR, negativity sucks

yet you have turned this thread almost entirely into a discussion about how you hate negativity.

Do you not see the inherent hypocrisy in that? Other people have jobs, and relationships, and responsibilies. Others want to have conversations without flamewars derailing them.

And you deny that. Over your desires.

Who is the three year old now?

And on that note I am done.

Here is the gist of what happened in this thread:
-I comment on the original issue, and then proceed to point out how overly negative, generally, people are in this hobby (emphasis online)
-People point out I am complaining about complaining
-I explain why I dislike complaining
-I get called hypocritical and ultimately am insulted (Who's the three year old now?)

Stay classy Dakka

Can you guys just go somewhere and make out and get it over with? Geez...

My definition of "B&P" is if I enjoy the game even if I lose the game. Something you aren't investing huge amounts of time, anxiety, and study into.

For me, once you get to know the codexs you use and the rules n the rulebook (fairly well) then 40k and Fantasy and LOTR are all beer and pretzel games.

I don't take it to seriously, I play with friends so it's just fun to hang out, I always have fun no matter if I win or loose, I never argue rules (if there is a disagreement then we role off if we can't find it in the rulebook), I can be half paying attention.

I think GW doesn't want the hobby to be a competitive hobby, I say this because when people start getting super competative in tourneys and stuff people just get pissed about "That is OP and full of cheese this is Bull"
If people took it less serious and just looked at it as a casual (not as casual as monopoly or something) with some strategy then people might enjoy it more.

 chiefbigredman wrote:
For me, once you get to know the codexs you use and the rules n the rulebook (fairly well) then 40k and Fantasy and LOTR are all beer and pretzel games.

Given one of the recurring elements of what people consider beer and pretzels games are is a quick and easy ruleset that can be picked up in 20 minutes, do you think that qualifies?

I don't take it to seriously, I play with friends so it's just fun to hang out, I always have fun no matter if I win or loose, I never argue rules (if there is a disagreement then we role off if we can't find it in the rulebook), I can be half paying attention.

Yeah, but wouldn't it be nice if there was no dice roll, and you could resolve disagreements just by rereading the rules and applying them in a logical fashion?

I think GW doesn't want the hobby to be a competitive hobby, I say this because when people start getting super competative in tourneys and stuff people just get pissed about "That is OP and full of cheese this is Bull"
If people took it less serious and just looked at it as a casual (not as casual as monopoly or something) with some strategy then people might enjoy it more.

GW is not the hobby. GW want you to think that, just as they want you to think that if you're playing to win, you're doing it wrong. If the rules were better written, and the codexes better balanced, people could take it as seriously or casually as they liked. It is only the current situation which causes those who wish to take it more seriously issues. There is no reason a well written ruleset can't be played for lols, the inverse is unfortunately not true. As a consequence, that player segment feels overlooked by GW, breeding a large amount of the toxic attitude you see on this and other boards, and likely costing GW sales in the process.

At it's heart, GW not catering to the competitive player base is just a poor business decision.

XenosTerminus wrote:
If you do not like the current state of the game, why do you play it?

Because I enjoy playing it, for the most part.

Thinking something can be better than it is does not preclude enjoying that thing. I can see the flaws in the game, some of which I really dislike... but so long as playign the game remains enjoyable, I'll keeo doing so.

There's also the fact that there currently is no directly comparable alternative to 40K. There are loads of skirmish games, and I have Warmahordes and Necromunda to play when I want to scratch that particular itch... but if I want something bigger scale, the only alternative is to go for one of the various 6mm games... and I pretty much universally dislike the models in that scale.

Why do you continue to buy the books, models, and support a company who evidently is doing nothing right in your eyes?

Where did I say they were doing nothing right?

I don't buy GW's books any more. Or not new, at least. $75 hardcover codexes sent that little ship sailing off into the sunset.

I would buy models, if not for GW's ridiculously outdated regional sales policy... because by and large I like GW's models. That doesn't have to be directly related to my liking of or playing of the game... I have a load of models from Malifaux, Anime Tactics, Void, Confrontation, AT-43, WHFB, and a bunch of smaller companies as well. I have no intention of playing any of those games... I bought the models because I like them.

It's one thing to make a conscious decision when something is not to your liking and find a solution (I am not suggesting that quitting 40k is necessarily the only answer- there are countless ways you can increase your enjoyment in the hobby regardless of GW's shortcomings). It's another thing entirely to continuously complain about something you have 100% control over, expecting different results every time you are disappointed.

Here's the thing: GW do pay attention to the forums, despite occasionally claiming that they don't. They have in the past, made changes or implemented FAQs based on community feedback. So complaining loudly on forums isn't just pissing into the wind... it does potentially make a difference, eventually.


In the meantime, having a bit of a whinge on forums is, for some of us, a way of letting off a little steam and avoiding throwing in the towel completely. I have 20 years invested in this game. I've seen the cycle of the game go around several times now... some things get better, some get worse. SO I'll wait around in the hope that 7th ed will improve at least some of the things that I dislike about 6th, and I'll discuss those things I dislike in the hope that those discussions will get noticed by the right people.

++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

It means that Kren and Frepp, have resotcked their supply in their Bar.


++End Transmission++

 Anpu42 wrote:
Just getting together for the purposes of blowing the out of each other. If someone wins, someone wins, if someone looses, someone looses.
What is important is having a good time.

This - often with beer and pretzels too.

xruslanx wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
What do you snack on then? ...crisps?

Usually crisps. Sometimes a sandwich. When I get my own place I might start doing paninis.

Hah nice - I'd like a panini while gaming.

 Roci wrote:
Any game you that requires you to read multiple books and contains strategy, list building and playing, is far from being casual beer drinking level of games. To me anyway.

Apparently you don't get it. In 40k all those rules, books, list building and strategy exist for you to ignore and never use with any deeper thought except maybe about what is OP so you won't be acussed of being WAAC. You need to make a crappy list, get drunk, lay back and never try to win. Fun.

 chiefbigredman wrote:
I think GW doesn't want the hobby to be a competitive hobby

Funny I see that point raised every 5 posts by casual brigade but even the casual king Jervis Johnson, not that long ago in one of his WD articles (issue with Hobbit Unexpected Journey figs afair) wrote about 2 gaming groups - one fluffy story writing and other where people play the most powerful builds there are - that BOTH are entirely valid ways to play the game. He also wrote that there is a problem where players from such groups meet and have different expectations, that they should find a middle ground. Not competitive player drops his Riptides and become laid back fluff bunny because 40k is not competitive, but middle ground.

Anyway seems like the 40k is not intended for competitive play is bs.

For me, it means nothing to me in a literal sense: I don't drink, and I don't like pretzels.

...But if we're talking of the mentioned idiosyncrasy in metaphorical level, isn't "beer and pretzels" the pursuit of many people in ANY forms of entertainment: to have a maximum gain of enjoyment and new experiences with acquaintances?

last weekend i went to a friends house to play some games, I took over my Imperial fists army, but since it was a group gathering we decided not to play 40k, and instead, with beer (and soft drinks) and nibbles we played Man'o'war (i had a nerdgasm) Touch of evil, chez geek, munchkin and finished off by playing Zombie flux and desperately trying to make the zombies win every game.

Beer and Pretzels to me means playing cooperatively to have a good time, and the 40k ruleset by its very nature is a competitive one, which compared to 'real' beer and pretzels games is too complex, and obviously confrontational with each player trying to beat the opponents army into submission. Sure you can play a nice fluffy game with weird objectives, and go for 'cinematic' moments, but ultimately there are some armies (and builds of those armies) that are head and shoulders above the rest.

Playing 40k you should absolutely not have to discuss with your opponent before hand what kind of game you want, and agree to put limits on whatever army you are playing. a properly balanced ruleset, and codices with proper balance both internally and externally should lend itself to fluffy 'lets get drunk and throw dice around' as well as highly competitive 'smash your face into the ground' styles of play.

Since 40k is not balanced by any stretch of the imagination, beer and pretzels means playing Zombie flux of an evening

Anyone notice the difference in clarify for the Las Vegas Open:

Warmachine / Hordes:

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/las-vegas-open/las-vegas-open-warmachine-and-hordes-events/

Basically 2 bullets point to PP supported terminology and publications.

Warhammer 40K

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/las-vegas-open/las-vegas-open-warhammer-40k-championships/

Probably 4+ pages of rules, potential different from other tournaments. I'll excuse the scenarios as I think they making up their own in order to make things more interesting.

"Beer and Pretzels" gameplay would in my book be shown by comparing the gameplay and the mental dedication therin of a game like Warhammer: Diskwars, versus the actual Warhammer Fantasy. Either can give you a similar feel, but the latter requires a much vaster mental investment during gameplay.