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Did you really have to take so little responsibility and say that WE failed? After a nice paragraph in which you say you should take the blame, you write a long text blaming us. Wrong.
Basically, your figures were not produced because the digital files you provided do not work. Yet you try to shift responsibility for that to Defiance. Defiance DID NOT create the digital files. It was never our responsibility to do that. You should admit that, but you do not.
This is your project -- the only person responsible for the fact that Defiance never received workable files is ultimately you, Alyssa. The buck stops with you when it comes to Torn.
After the original files proved unworkable, the vendor you hired to fix them did not provide results which could be manufactured (Did you really want us to try and make a 20 mm resin figure in 5 parts???). Nothing that happened at Defiance, the 'changing of the guard' or the 'turbulent times' changes that.
You claim to have patience. Well, you are now choosing (it is a choice on your part) to close your project. Ultimately, this might still be a fixable problem. We have suggested possible solutions. You have decided not to do that. That is your decision and your responsibility. Do not blame anyone else for it.
I am really disappointed in you.
John Morse
People have already started to ask them why not refund the money.
1. If the files were formatted using the program/style that Defiance wanted, then this is complete bs. It doesn't take this long to get a problem like this resolved. 2. Refund the money. They gave you money, you produced nothing, return the money. Oh, you spent it on another of your doomed-to-failure projects? Color me surprised.
I don't know Alyssa or John from a hole in the ground, and I have zero vested interest in this project, but I can smell bs, and a truckload of it just got dumped on the curb.
Both parties here are to blame. Alyssa for not doing simple research on these knuckleheads, and Defiance games for being Knuckleheads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 15:31:11
3 sides to every story, hers, his, and the truth....but it seems like the Torn armor people paid to have some services rendered, defiance didnt provide those services. Lots of finger pointing but at the end of the day defiance makes no mention of doing any actual work which seems to be the biggest reason to just give the money back. This isnt a PR fight they will win
What I find funny is the number of people here on Dakkadakka that still backed the defiance games kickstarter. Most were saying something to the extent of well I'm not tossing a lot of money that way, but if they do payoff then I'm getting so much good stuff out of it. Even the test model they showed was terrible with the 3d grain on it from printing, and the "professional Painter"
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14
Agreed, that letter from Defiance makes it clear how they are just ripping off Torn Armor, like they have other companies many times in their history.
The folks behind Torn Armor should have known better than to choose Defiance, but that does not let Defiance off the hook- on the contrary, I hope they put the rest of the KS funds into legal action and get the bulk back that way. It certainly worked for Rust Forge, as posted in the Dakka Discussions thread here (direct link to their post):
Rust Forge on November 21st, 2013 wrote:Several people have asked about the events that happened that caused Rust Forge to seek legal assistance in order to secure payment from Defiance Games. Below is a timeline of events that should answer everyone’s questions.
Days 1 - 14 We contacted Defiance to inquire about a product trade for advertising purposes. We had been searching for some 28mm hard sci-fi miniatures to use for display and advertising to help show our products scale and we thought that the DG marines might fit the bill. Initially we sought to trade them some cargo containers they could use in a similar fashion for their promotional materials. DG countered that they would actually like to carry the product as part of their Alien Suns line. After discussion, it was decided to go ahead with this plan. Their order was placed and shipped with a NET10 payment schedule.
Days 15 - 45 A second smaller order was placed this time with a net 30 pay schedule before the initial net 10 became due. When the initial net 10 came due DG stated that the initial NET10 payment wasn't possible for them to make and asked for a NET 30 on the original order citing waiting on distributor payments. As having to wait for a distributor to send payment on their own net 30, net 60, or sometimes longer schedule is not uncommon we agreed with this time frame. After the 30 days had gone by with no payment, DG stated that due to some production issues, they had not received the money that they were expected and were going to be further delayed with payment. We weren't happy, but we accepted this reason. Everyone has unexpected issues that crop up from time to time.
Days 46 - 90(ish) DG continued to be in regular communication throughout this time. They continued asserting that the production issues were causing the delays and as soon as they were paid we would be paid. They also stated that the were having discussions with possible investors that would speed up the payment timing issues. During the end of this timeframe, we began discussing possible legal actions with our attorney. We decided to hold off for a bit more time because we still felt that we weren't be lied to and that DG were just having a rough time.
Days 91(ish) - 120(ish) DG launched their kickstarter and announced the management change. We learned of the change when everyone else did via 3rd party sources. We had no prior notice of this before the first public notice on FB and the DG website. We immediately contacted the "new" management who continued with the same story of delay issues, BUT started to give us time frames of when we would get paid. These time frames came and went several times with no payment or likelihood of one. At time we began to witness a serious level of blame being thrown between the old and new management. Each claiming the other was responsible for the debts of the business, controlled access to funds for making payments, and whose responsibility it was to satisfy the debts. At this time we told the attorney to send the intent of lawsuit paperwork. Immediately after talking to our attorney, DG announced that the "new" management is no longer the management at all.
Days 121(ish - 135 Our attorney sends the intent of lawsuit paperwork to both Tony and Gary (old and new management). Gary immediately replies that he is no longer management and that he never was actually in charge and that this is Tony's issue. Tony replies that a check will be sent out shortly. Almost one week later we received a check, for full payment owed, by Tony. That check was cashed and had since cleared in full.
As of today we have had several discussions since this all started and we have determined that for the time being, DG is in too much turmoil to continue to do business with. It is just not a good idea considering all the new information that has come to light the past few weeks to continue to be associated with DG. Tony is a very likable individual. He is very pleasant to talk to and has many high hopes and ideas for his company. We hope that he can get things together so they can be brought to reality.
I hope that clears everything up with people. We do not hold any ill will towards anyone involved. Everything was finally resolved and in full. We are moving forward and we hope that all other parties are able to so as well.
If someone wants to forward that link on to Torn Armor, it may help them to reach out to Rust Forge / Rust Forge's lawyers, as they'll have already done a lot of due diligence on Defiance and how to bring legal pressure.
Oddly enough this isn't the first odd projec that Natalya Alyssa Faden has been involved with...
There was an RPG Kickstarter called Cairn launched by Mike Nystul Cairn KS it raised roughly $24K. After six months of so the project creator came out and announced that he has squandered the money and would be unable to fufill his obligations and he had no money to process refunds. He claimed to have completed some parts of the project and what he had finished would be sent out to backers, as far as I know, no one has received anything. Fast forward a few weeks after the announcement and we get an update saying that Mike has solved the problem, he transfered the IP to a company called SoulJAR run by Ross Isaacs with what seems like alot of help from Natalya... He trasnfered the IP, but not the debt owed to backers... SoulJAR using Natalya as their spokesperson claimed to still be fufilling some of the original kickstarter obligations. Since then nothing, no information on their website other then an announcement for another Kickstarter. She has also been involved in a few other Kickstarters that never got funded.
At this point I can't help but wonder how much of this wasn't actually problems created by Natalya herself...
I would be extremly cautious about trusting Natalya, Ross or SoulJAR at this point.
That's odd Catyrpelius... looks like she tried to help bail out that project, but didn't really succeed?
That doesn't mean it's failure is on her, but just that she maybe was too ambitious, taking over an IP but with no money being exchanged, it would be hard to follow through on... it does look similar in some ways to Torn, though...
Natalya Alyssa Fayden in the Cairn Kickstarter Comments wrote:Hey guys and gals, my name is Alyssa and I'm part of the SoulJAR team. Together with jim pinto and Jack Cull, we have banded together under the SoulJAR name to help Ross make this game - and other games - a reality.
We are huge believers in utter transparency and honesty and have been updating our own FB pages, the Cairn page, SoulJAR Facebook and our SoulJAR Blog with regular - if not daily - updates. We are also completely open to being PMed and emailed, and - believe me - are here to help, answer questions, and attempt to alleviate some of the frustration that has built up around the Cairn name.
I am also a Cairn backer (hence me able to post here ). I backed at a fairly high level so I could also get all of the miniatures. I get where you are all coming from, so please consider me empathic to your thoughts and feelings around this title.
The gathering of the team (and why), and the playing cards (and why) were announced here: http://souljar-games.blogspot.com/2013/08/souljar-grows.html But allow me to put this into my own words:
We love Cairn. We truly believe in the title, the subject matter, the setting and the sheer possibilities that lie within. We want to see this book go live, because - quite frankly - too much hard work and your money has gone into it.
So Ross offered to take this off Mike's hands and help finish the writing, the proofreading and layout, get it printed and distributed. The IP transferred to Ross for the book, NO MONEY WAS EXCHANGED. This is important, because Ross and SoulJAR want to ensure that you get a copy of Cairn, but it will be at SoulJAR's expense. I know you spent money - I spent money as well - but noe of that went to Ross, none of it went to SoulJAR, so for SoulJar to get you your copy of the book we're effectively got to eat the cost. That's not your problem, but it is a reality.
We therefore started the Cairn Bicycle Cards to help offset these costs (the rest will come out of our pockets). There are several strong pluses here as it has enabled us to -
- COLOR THE ARTWORK
- ADD ADITIONAL ARTWORK
Neither of these would have been possible otherwise, and - please note - both are also out of SoulJAR pocket.
With patience already exhausted and communication over the last year probably not what you wanted it to be, it's a tad cheeky of me to ask "please bear with us while we bring Cairn together." But I do ask for your understanding: We did not run the Cairn Kickstarter, nor have we been running the communication since it funded to now; so we cannot be responsible for what was said, promised or otherwise inferred. We are however cognizant and sympathetic to everything that has occured, and intend to show a slightly different face and method of communication moving forward.
If you have any questions - or simply wish to vent - please find us:
http://souljar-games.blogspot.com/ https://www.facebook.com/SoulJAR.Games https://www.facebook.com/CairnRPG and my own personal wall:
https://www.facebook.com/alyssa.faden
This looks to me to be more (unfortunate) incompetence / over-ambition rather than anything nefarious, though...
For the current project, it does truly seem they just foolishly gave the money to Defiance Games and got nothing in return... and as Defiance has a clear track record of ripping off other companies, I'm inclined to believe that the folks behind Torn Armor are being genuine, and were just very, very foolish with the money.
Hopefully, someone can pass along the links to Rust Forge's course of action above, where legal steps led to their being fully refunded.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 16:07:01
Did you really have to take so little responsibility and say that WE failed? After a nice paragraph in which you say you should take the blame, you write a long text blaming us. Wrong.
Basically, your figures were not produced because the digital files you provided do not work. Yet you try to shift responsibility for that to Defiance. Defiance DID NOT create the digital files. It was never our responsibility to do that. You should admit that, but you do not.
This is your project -- the only person responsible for the fact that Defiance never received workable files is ultimately you, Alyssa. The buck stops with you when it comes to Torn.
After the original files proved unworkable, the vendor you hired to fix them did not provide results which could be manufactured (Did you really want us to try and make a 20 mm resin figure in 5 parts???). Nothing that happened at Defiance, the 'changing of the guard' or the 'turbulent times' changes that.
You claim to have patience. Well, you are now choosing (it is a choice on your part) to close your project. Ultimately, this might still be a fixable problem. We have suggested possible solutions. You have decided not to do that. That is your decision and your responsibility. Do not blame anyone else for it.
I am really disappointed in you.
John Morse
People have already started to ask them why not refund the money.
Showing off, making personal remarks in an unprofessional manner in response to a clients wishes and being incompetent enough to be unable to change a filetype ... Usual defiance games then?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/23 16:16:21
Creator SoulJAR on Jan 2
Thank you all ... thank you, thank you ... we are very proud to have the opportunity to deliver this great game (plus expansions!) to you and are thrilled to have you as backers =D A more formal update will be coming to celebrate our funding and stretch goals!
~ Alyssa & the SoulJAR Team
Are you allowed to have multiple accounts on Kickstarter to make multiple projects? That seems very uncool... I am NOT saying there is anything wrong, as she is obviously using her name on both. But, it just doesn't seem to make sense to have two separate accounts that she controls / is able to make the comments on, rather than one account, to create projects.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 16:13:41
Wasn't aware she had been involved in other campaigns. That's a bit worrisome if that's the case.
I thought she seemed like a typical first time KS-er who had hit some stumbling blocks along the road.
I hope they can recoup their losses and continue on with the game. I couldn't pledge for it at the time but I've got a soft spot for bloodthirsty anthropomorphic animal warriors.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
RiTides wrote: That's odd Catyrpelius... looks like she tried to help bail out that project, but didn't really succeed?
That doesn't mean it's failure is on her, but just that she maybe was too ambitious, taking over an IP but with no money being exchanged, it would be hard to follow through on... it does look similar in some ways to Torn, though...
Natalya Alyssa Fayden in the Cairn Kickstarter Comments wrote:Hey guys and gals, my name is Alyssa and I'm part of the SoulJAR team. Together with jim pinto and Jack Cull, we have banded together under the SoulJAR name to help Ross make this game - and other games - a reality.
We are huge believers in utter transparency and honesty and have been updating our own FB pages, the Cairn page, SoulJAR Facebook and our SoulJAR Blog with regular - if not daily - updates. We are also completely open to being PMed and emailed, and - believe me - are here to help, answer questions, and attempt to alleviate some of the frustration that has built up around the Cairn name.
I am also a Cairn backer (hence me able to post here ). I backed at a fairly high level so I could also get all of the miniatures. I get where you are all coming from, so please consider me empathic to your thoughts and feelings around this title.
The gathering of the team (and why), and the playing cards (and why) were announced here: http://souljar-games.blogspot.com/2013/08/souljar-grows.html But allow me to put this into my own words:
We love Cairn. We truly believe in the title, the subject matter, the setting and the sheer possibilities that lie within. We want to see this book go live, because - quite frankly - too much hard work and your money has gone into it.
So Ross offered to take this off Mike's hands and help finish the writing, the proofreading and layout, get it printed and distributed. The IP transferred to Ross for the book, NO MONEY WAS EXCHANGED. This is important, because Ross and SoulJAR want to ensure that you get a copy of Cairn, but it will be at SoulJAR's expense. I know you spent money - I spent money as well - but noe of that went to Ross, none of it went to SoulJAR, so for SoulJar to get you your copy of the book we're effectively got to eat the cost. That's not your problem, but it is a reality.
We therefore started the Cairn Bicycle Cards to help offset these costs (the rest will come out of our pockets). There are several strong pluses here as it has enabled us to -
- COLOR THE ARTWORK
- ADD ADITIONAL ARTWORK
Neither of these would have been possible otherwise, and - please note - both are also out of SoulJAR pocket.
With patience already exhausted and communication over the last year probably not what you wanted it to be, it's a tad cheeky of me to ask "please bear with us while we bring Cairn together." But I do ask for your understanding: We did not run the Cairn Kickstarter, nor have we been running the communication since it funded to now; so we cannot be responsible for what was said, promised or otherwise inferred. We are however cognizant and sympathetic to everything that has occured, and intend to show a slightly different face and method of communication moving forward.
If you have any questions - or simply wish to vent - please find us:
http://souljar-games.blogspot.com/ https://www.facebook.com/SoulJAR.Games https://www.facebook.com/CairnRPG and my own personal wall:
https://www.facebook.com/alyssa.faden
This looks to me to be more (unfortunate) incompetence / over-ambition rather than anything nefarious, though...
For the current project, it does truly seem they just foolishly gave the money to Defiance Games and got nothing in return... and as Defiance has a clear track record of ripping off other companies, I'm inclined to believe that the folks behind Torn Armor are being genuine, and were just very, very foolish with the money.
Hopefully, someone can pass along the links to Rust Forge's course of action above, where legal steps led to their being fully refunded.
At this point in time with all the new companies competing for my $$ on Kickstarter I'm more then willing to lump incompetence, over-ambition and nefariousness into one catagory called "you shouldn't be working in this industry anymore".
Best of intentions are a great thing, but lets think of this another way... Do you really want a game created by someone so out of touch with the hobby that they wouldn't know about Definaces and Tony's past? Do you really want a game created by someone who couldn't take the time before commiting a large sum of money to google Definace and Tony and read up about them?
Sure Tony and Definace are up to their usual game. Sure it's unfortunate. However I think that the folks at Torn Armor deserve most of the blame. Alot of people have been talking about blaming the victim memes, I think this is one instance where it's perfectly acceptable to blame the victim. They lost backers money because they didn't do their due diliangance. If they were goverment officials they's be in jail.
I am not sure about the blame part of your post, but I don't think it's cool that she launched a new project that funded this month raising almost 20K while failing to deliver on this one... I actually reported the new project to Kickstarter just now in case they were unaware or that is against their policies, since it just funded 3 weeks ago it's possible the funds didn't release yet.
If it's kosher with them, no problem, as she did admit her name and involvement... but obviously if she had used the same account as she did for Torn Armor she may not have been able to raise 20K while admitting to have lost the almost 70K from this one.
In other words, those who felt really bad for her and said she may not be able to work in the industry again... well, she already has another 20K project that funded this month... so I think she needs to be a little more upfront about that.
Regardless of all that, I really hope Torn Armor nails Defiance, and I've sent them the link to Rust Forge's course of action against Defiance and suggested that they get in touch with Rust Forge's lawyers...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 16:26:01
She's not the one who is going to be out of pocket over this. If you're going to be investing other people's money, you should do your due diligence.
She indicated she HAS put money in this, so she's going to be out that if this can't get going. So she's a victim as well, and probably out more than any backer.
Yes, she should have done more research. But she made a mistake. Defiance acted criminally. Lets not lose track of who the villain is.
Like I said, if Kickstarter is cool with it, no problem.
But, most of those companies didn't admit to just failing to deliver a 70K project the same month they receive the funds for a new 20K project... again, their call, I just think being a little more upfront about what she is involved in would be good.
In the end, I think it's pretty clear that Defiance are the only ones with bad intent here, and I hope Torn Armor is able to recover... but I think the absolute only chance of that is taking legal action as Rust Forge did (which I copied above, and sent to Torn Armor directly).
I guess it's easy when isn't your money and all you need to do is feign apology in a forum post.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I couldn't pledge for it at the time but I've got a soft spot for bloodthirsty anthropomorphic animal warriors.
It's not my cup of tea so I can't tell you much about it other than it exists, but presumably you've checked out Brushfire? The owners post regularly on dakka and have their own forum subsection.
Just to clarify here, what would have been floating around about Defiance Games/ Tony last summer?
The RustForge/Proxie issue hadn't emerged yet, they were basically considered to be overly ambitious and slow, with varying opinions on the quality of their products.
I don't remember anyone blaming RustForge for dealing with Defiance so this attitude seems a bit weird.
Are you allowed to have multiple accounts on Kickstarter to make multiple projects? That seems very uncool... I am NOT saying there is anything wrong, as she is obviously using her name on both. But, it just doesn't seem to make sense to have two separate accounts that she controls / is able to make the comments on, rather than one account, to create projects.
I suspect the answer would depend on whether they're two different legal entities/companies even if they involve the same people/person. If she created two separate LLCs or has separate business licenses, I don't see any issue with that from Kickstarter's perspective.
Someone in the comments linked to a scandal 4 months before this funded, and they went with Defiance later, after their Chinese manufacturing quote was too high...
Defiance has had a bad rep for a few years now, though, regardless.
On the surface, this seems like a classic case of failure to do due diligence on Torn Armor's end, and breach of contract by Defiance.
Of course, who knows what's really going on. The great thing about having a reputation for ripping people off? It's easy to say you're the reason a project failed!
I'm not saying that they intentionally used Defiance to arrange a scapegoat, but it makes it more likley that people turn on Defiance, not Torn Armor.
The simple truth is if they had done no work, and after estimating found that the file format of the sculpts made it a non starter, you end the contract, return the money and go your separate ways.
The core issue is the money is GONE. Defiance doesn't have the money available to provide a return. Why? No one knows. They clearly didn't keep it separate, and it apparently got spent.
Why defiance doesn't feel the need to return the money, or even address it is confusing. If they returned the money, then it would have been an example of 'file formats not being valid'. But instead it is a failing company with cashflow issues using one projects funds to pay for another. If the money was returned, then it would be back on Torn for choosing a bad manufacturer and then it is back on them for delays and they can simply find a new manufacturer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 16:38:53
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
The rumor i"ve heard is that Defiance has been robbing peter to pay paul for years. I'm pretty certain Rust Forge got paid out of Kickstarter proceeds.
I was gonna work with Defiance at once point, a while back before all the drama ensued, for my first KS. But I had a couple of metal figs done already and decided to stick with that. Dodged a bullet there...
It's not my cup of tea so I can't tell you much about it other than it exists, but presumably you've checked out Brushfire? The owners post regularly on dakka and have their own forum subsection.
But of course I've checked out Brushfire! Who else is going to make armored Capybaras to fight with?
I normally stick to the reptiles, but when I see more exotic and less common mammals ready to skirmish, I have to partake now and then.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
Sure Tony and Definace are up to their usual game. Sure it's unfortunate. However I think that the folks at Torn Armor deserve most of the blame. Alot of people have been talking about blaming the victim memes, I think this is one instance where it's perfectly acceptable to blame the victim. They lost backers money because they didn't do their due diliangance. If they were goverment officials they's be in jail.
Sorta like how Rust Forge and Ken/Proxie Models deserve most of the blame, right?
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
Sure Tony and Definace are up to their usual game. Sure it's unfortunate. However I think that the folks at Torn Armor deserve most of the blame. Alot of people have been talking about blaming the victim memes, I think this is one instance where it's perfectly acceptable to blame the victim. They lost backers money because they didn't do their due diliangance. If they were goverment officials they's be in jail.
Sorta like how Rust Forge and Ken/Proxie Models deserve most of the blame, right?
Rust Forge and Proxie models only lost their own money. Torn Armor lost backer money. As far as I'm concerned it's two completly different things. Basically do whatever you want with your own money but if you start looseing my money then we've got a problem.
Even the test model they showed was terrible with the 3d grain on it from printing, and the "professional Painter" 
). I backed at a fairly high level so I could also get all of the miniatures. I get where you are all coming from, so please consider me empathic to your thoughts and feelings around this title.
