Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
If you give your money to somebody on good faith then more power to you.
Obviously people that mismanaged kickstarters are either morons, incompetent or malicious and deserve all the ire in the world. However, if you gave them the money you should know that is one of the risks. Surely KS makes that clear?
Sure Tony and Definace are up to their usual game. Sure it's unfortunate. However I think that the folks at Torn Armor deserve most of the blame. Alot of people have been talking about blaming the victim memes, I think this is one instance where it's perfectly acceptable to blame the victim. They lost backers money because they didn't do their due diliangance. If they were goverment officials they's be in jail.
Sorta like how Rust Forge and Ken/Proxie Models deserve most of the blame, right?
No, because that's an entirely different situation. Rust Forge and Proxie Models were at risk because they did work and weren't paid for it. They should have demanded up-front payment for their product, but their plan was otherwise sound. Torn Armor is at risk because they were paid to do work and didn't do it, and subcontracted the job to someone else who was paid to do work and didn't do it either. And frankly, if they'd been up-front about the fact that they were putting people's already paid for product in the hands of Defiance Games, people would have been asking for refunds.
Medium of Death wrote: However, if you gave them the money you should know that is one of the risks. Surely KS makes that clear?
No. This is a lie, just like EULAs are a lie. You can claim that pre-ordering product through Kickstarter forfeits your consumer rights, but that doesn't make it true.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
I just see non business sense and a healthy dose of learning.
As much as I'd want to jump on the bandwagon and !@#$ all over the the victim, I'm going to have to pass...
The concepts are sound. It would not take much at all to turn the luck around on this whole pot of mess and pull out something that would fiesibly be a pretty fun game.
As much as they want to run around Kickstarter, trying to scoop up funds, it is not out of the realm of possibility to gather up what little money, games, and pride that is left and just up and pull out a game.
They have Nystul's magic aura hot mess, they have a concept of a world, and some game mechanics, and pictures of some figures. Not much more needed here but guts and brass cajones to go the distance.
Go back to the drawing board, salvage this lot and stop jumping around kickstarter with the "oh, I'm a clever geek" sickness that some gamers have that gives them the idea that they can eat plastic and crap out figures.
The work is pretty much there, it would not take much to pull back, re engage with a fresh BUSINESS PLAN, and a SMALL selection of base figures. (Warmachine started out with 5 or 6 boxed sets with four or five figures, and ... grew.) It grew because people could up, pull out a box and just up and play right away. It was not pretentous ( in the beginning....) and it was FUN.
THIS is the part of the concept has that appeal to me. The KS project was too scatter brained and lacked a single focus, Much like MOST of them do. Defiance isn't the blame of that, that goes all on just being silly and not serious on your expectations of the project. You just got caught up in the moment, as much as MOST of these KS projects do. ( oh, if you get to the NEXT goal, we'll GIVE YOU FREE STUFFS!!!)
Defiance was just a crap decision, made by not knowing any better that they can not be trusted for the time of day.
Your team needs to go back, have a gut check, and move forward. ALL of the KS projects and the webpage show promise, you just need to get with reality and focus your efforts on what the game is really going to be. Bullgak dice dungeon that people will forget in five seconds, or teams of fighting mice allied with some ancient greeks, and the Monkey king, vs snake men and demon women from the deeper pits. ( YES, I'm making light of it, but I'm serious that the base concept is pretty good.)
Animorphic adventure game, with fantasy stuff, if done right would be pretty cool. especially if done with some FUN, it would really be something to see on the tabletop.
If you go back, produce just a couple of teams of figures, and rescale the project, you get to salvage your pride, learn on a smaller scale, and actually PRODUCE a workable game system, that you can later grow ( along with your reputation that you took a risk, it backfired, but you came back and pulled out a win. Along the way, you develope your business chops, design OTHER future projects, and scale up as you grow, not just put a bunch of vaporware out and cry like a child about what could have been, because the good idea fairy took it away.
Sorry, but Blood, Sweat, and Tears are the coin of the realm if you want to make a game.
5 boxes of guys/ warbands.
1 rulebook.
1 game board.
1 adventure book.
THAT is a beginning. Focus ONLY on THAT, and that alone. All of this other garbage that has been shell-gamed needs to go to the "Good idea fairy" as a sacrifice for real life, real world business.
I've seen the background. This crap reeks of "Al LIM, esq." crap that we have seen more then a few times on KS.
These people have gone to the Mike Nystul school of KS projects to raise quick filthy lucre.
It takes more then money. It takes brains, and a fear of failure that people have lost anymore.
I'll go right out and say it. I think that THIS game could be a winner, if it was handled with the care that it deserved, and not the gak fest that was thrown all over it for the sake of being naive.
I like the concept. The world could use polish, but on the whole, using the game baord is a simple way to begin the adventure for the tabletop for later. Maybe use some dungon tiles, and have the gaols be interactive with the table top stuff later... In the "dungeon phase" where you'd be able to put a party together and go in and fight some creepy crawlies, or some of those snake guys/ demon wenches, or whatever the bad guys are supposed to be.
One last question for the "Creator" of the game system.
Are you serious about the game project as a whole, or is the KS just a fund raising scheme?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 17:29:29
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
Medium of Death wrote: However, if you gave them the money you should know that is one of the risks. Surely KS makes that clear?
No. This is a lie, just like EULAs are a lie. You can claim that pre-ordering product through Kickstarter forfeits your consumer rights, but that doesn't make it true.
Surely until KS, or a leading body in such matters, says otherwise it isn't a lie? It certainly has stopped me from using KS.
AlexHolker wrote: And frankly, if they'd been up-front about the fact that they were putting people's already paid for product in the hands of Defiance Games, people would have been asking for refunds.
This is my issue, that if they had ever once mentioned Defiance, people would have warned them.
However, I have never asked for a refund on Kickstarter, and don't plan to... if a project turns out to be an actual scam, I'll just challenge the charge on my credit card. I know that means they'd be retrieving the funds from Kickstarter, not the project creator, but KS is making enough money as it is.
The point is, though, IF people want refunds, there is recourse for that... however, in this case if I had donated I would not be demanding a refund- I would be asking that they use my funds to nail Defiance legally and get what they paid Defiance back.
------------------------------------
Another backer who reflects my thoughts on this:
David Smith on Kickstarter wrote:Very disappointed with the news and feel sorry for you and us, but why the heck did you decide to go to Defiance, they can't even release their own products in time let alone anyone else's.
It really sucks, but it's just plain shocking that someone who has backed 50 projects as this creator has, and would seemingly be somewhat plugged into the wargaming community, had no idea that Defiance was a risky choice. I believe it, but man... what a poor decision... hopefully now that they've come clean about it legal action can be taken, maybe with the help of Rust Forge's lawyers who are already familiar with Defiance.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/23 17:34:50
Medium of Death wrote: However, if you gave them the money you should know that is one of the risks. Surely KS makes that clear?
No. This is a lie, just like EULAs are a lie. You can claim that pre-ordering product through Kickstarter forfeits your consumer rights, but that doesn't make it true.
Surely until KS, or a leading body in such matters, says otherwise it isn't a lie? It certainly has stopped me from using KS.
Crowd funding is a gamble. It is not just a way to "get rich quick, or get free stuffs."
You are under no sort of obligation on crowd funding whatsoever.
If I wanted to, I could raise 6 million bucks, push forward, and can the project after I got funded and squander the funds on wine, women, and song, and there would not be a thing you could do about it, except cry about how I took your money.
Thats why I'm pretty much done with the so called "New way of game production funding".... crap.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
Playing devils advocate here: defiance seemed to be turning things around for a while, and were catching up on back logged orders from what I had been reading, so depending upon timing this may have looked good. The were working with Rust Forge, who in my opinion is a operation, and seemed to be trying to right themselves. We don't have all the info, or an actual timeline so the armchair quarterbacking and 20/20 hindsight are great, but in the end its another nail in Tom reidy(hopefully), and a bad outcome to a questionable decision otherwise.
okay, I don't believe it either, but all sides should be expressed As always feel free to ignore me, that's why the mod's make that button available.
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14
Grot 6 wrote: If I wanted to, I could raise 6 million bucks, push forward, and can the project after I got funded and squander the funds on wine, women, and song, and there would not be a thing you could do about it, except cry about how I took your money.
No matter how many times this is repeated, it simply isn't true. It's an internet myth that gets echoed around and by being repeated makes it seem true... but it simply isn't.
1. You can quite easily get your money back by challenging the charge on your credit card, as I stated above. Many people for the scam Kickstarter I list below did so.
2. You can take legal action, if the amount warrants it... A poster from the scam "The Doom That Came To Atlantic City" Kickstarter is doing just that... see the spoilered text below.
The point is, this is currently a grey area of the law, but there are means of recompense for a campaign that is truly a scam. I don't think that this campaign is, however, so none of those apply... but the idea that you can run off with 6 million with no consequences isn't true.
First, the bad news: I’ve been back and forth with the Oregon DOJ the past several weeks and their bottom line is we as kickstarter supporters are on our own. I spoke at length with both Alex Salinas and her supervisor Geoff Darling (503) 934-4400 (both extremely knowledge-able and helpful people) and while they acknowledge we don’t fall into the category of “investor”, we also don’t fall into the category of “consumer”. We’re in this weird middle ground of “crowdfunding”. It was likened to supporting the arts. Further, for them to pursue a fraud charge we would need to prove “intent to defraud”. We may believe it, but we can’t prove it. Our only real recourse is small claims court. However, it’s not all gray skies.
Some good news: If anyone is in contact with an actual “consumer” who preordered the game through The Forking Path website but did not receive a refund, the Oregon DOJ would like to hear from them. Send them Geoff Darling’s way. Unless there are a significant number of customers and a high enough dollar amount, the case may not be big enough for his office to take action, but it’s worth a shot.
Scorched earth good news: Like me, if you’re less worried about the money and more concerned with the principle I’ve stumbled upon an interesting solution. There’s an online legal network that will handle all of the small claims filing for you in the state of Oregon, regardless of where you live. You still need to arrive in person for the actual court date, but they’ll handle all the filing and setup, including SERVING PAPERS. The cost is $165 for the service, plus court filing fee ($50 if your claim is between 0 and $2500). More details can be found here:
http://www.smallclaimsdepartment.com/oregon.asp Supposedly, you can request these fees be added to any judgment you’re awarded.
For me, I contributed $100 to the Kickstarter campaign. Is it worth it to me be out of pocket a total of $315 plus travel to Portland on principle? Yes, yes it is. If I don’t get my money back I can at least ensure a small claims judgment follows Erik around. I’m pretty sure that’s the kind of thing that shows up on standard employment background check and loan reviews.
Anyone else up for it?
Grot 6 wrote: If I wanted to, I could raise 6 million bucks, push forward, and can the project after I got funded and squander the funds on wine, women, and song, and there would not be a thing you could do about it, except cry about how I took your money.
No matter how many times this is repeated, it simply isn't true. It's an internet myth that gets echoed around and by being repeated makes it seem true... but it simply isn't.
1. You can quite easily get your money back by challenging the charge on your credit card, as I stated above. Many people for the scam Kickstarter I list below did so.
2. You can take legal action, if the amount warrants it... A poster from the scam "The Doom That Came To Atlantic City" Kickstarter is doing just that... see the spoilered text below.
The point is, this is currently a grey area of the law, but there are means of recompense for a campaign that is truly a scam. I don't think that this campaign is, however, so none of those apply... but the idea that you can run off with 6 million with no consequences isn't true.
First, the bad news: I’ve been back and forth with the Oregon DOJ the past several weeks and their bottom line is we as kickstarter supporters are on our own. I spoke at length with both Alex Salinas and her supervisor Geoff Darling (503) 934-4400 (both extremely knowledge-able and helpful people) and while they acknowledge we don’t fall into the category of “investor”, we also don’t fall into the category of “consumer”. We’re in this weird middle ground of “crowdfunding”. It was likened to supporting the arts. Further, for them to pursue a fraud charge we would need to prove “intent to defraud”. We may believe it, but we can’t prove it. Our only real recourse is small claims court. However, it’s not all gray skies.
Some good news: If anyone is in contact with an actual “consumer” who preordered the game through The Forking Path website but did not receive a refund, the Oregon DOJ would like to hear from them. Send them Geoff Darling’s way. Unless there are a significant number of customers and a high enough dollar amount, the case may not be big enough for his office to take action, but it’s worth a shot.
Scorched earth good news: Like me, if you’re less worried about the money and more concerned with the principle I’ve stumbled upon an interesting solution. There’s an online legal network that will handle all of the small claims filing for you in the state of Oregon, regardless of where you live. You still need to arrive in person for the actual court date, but they’ll handle all the filing and setup, including SERVING PAPERS. The cost is $165 for the service, plus court filing fee ($50 if your claim is between 0 and $2500). More details can be found here:
http://www.smallclaimsdepartment.com/oregon.asp Supposedly, you can request these fees be added to any judgment you’re awarded.
For me, I contributed $100 to the Kickstarter campaign. Is it worth it to me be out of pocket a total of $315 plus travel to Portland on principle? Yes, yes it is. If I don’t get my money back I can at least ensure a small claims judgment follows Erik around. I’m pretty sure that’s the kind of thing that shows up on standard employment background check and loan reviews.
Anyone else up for it?
As to go along with what Tides is saying, Pay with credit cards, not debit cards, you can challenge charges easier and almost always win.
Thanks, pities. I'm not sure why that isn't more common knowledge... I mean, credit cards don't mess around. I was with relatives abroad when the hotel they were staying at was listing erroneous charges. Rather than fight them, they waited until they got home and simply challenged them on the credit card, and very easily got their money back.
In this case, yes, the money would come from Kickstarter, not the project creator- but you can, quite easily, get your money back from an obvious scam project, as long as you used a credit card....
--------------------------------------------
Now that that is out of the way, again, I really don't think it applies here. Here, hopefully backers can rally behind Torn Armor using the remaining funds to take legal action against Defiance Games, to get the bulk of the funds back and then try to deliver some product by another means once they are refunded. It's the only possible way I can see this ending well... so hopefully Torn Armor has the grit to go through with it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/23 17:50:02
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
Alright, everyone who is saying "She should have known better, just google "Defiance games" or "Tony Reidy":
When the kickstarter had ended, most of the big Defiance games stuff hadn't gone down.
In fact, if you do a google search for articles published within a month of the kickstarter ending (which I assume is when they started working with Defiance). There really isn't any major red flags coming up.
Even if you google "Tony Reidy Defiance Games" now there's only one page that comes up in the first few pages that's negative (a post on Dakka, about some mold issues".
That's fair enough Grot 6 (and interestingly, is the prior campaign from the same guy as linked to above, which SoulJar took over the IP of, but wasn't paid...). But the point is, any individual backer could get their money back from Kickstarter if they choose to, assuming they paid by credit card.
Whether or not that guy sees justice is more up to how much perseverance people have in chasing after him / whether it's worth it to them or not (in this case, it probably isn't worth it... in the Atlantic City game case, which raised over 100K, that I linked to above... I think it is much more worth it, and the Oregon DOJ is actively looking into it).
I guess there goes my 6 million buck get rich quick scheme....
all because of you meddling kids!!! You and that damn dog!!
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
Yep, definitely plenty of blame to go around, but I put more of it on Defiance.
Based on the facts presented, Torn Armor gave DG money to produce models. As others have pointed out, nothing was produced, and Torn Armor had agreed to pay expenses incurred in the return of their funds. DG doesn't have the money to pay them back, which indicates the money for the Torn Armor project was already spent elsewhere. So, if the money was already spent, how were they going to pay for the production of the models which, last I checked, still costs money? Yes, the "Rob Peter to pay Paul" setup is DG's MO anymore, and a little bit of research reveals this, but at this point DG seems like they were acting in bad faith by committing monies they hadn't earned to other projects, and now being unable to return the funds to their rightful owner.
Stupid choice in supplier, and even worse to give them such a big chunk of the KS money up front so the Torn Armor folks aren't innocent angels, but they seem like the party deserving the lesser share of the blame.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 18:10:27
However, I have never asked for a refund on Kickstarter, and don't plan to... if a project turns out to be an actual scam, I'll just challenge the charge on my credit card. I know that means they'd be retrieving the funds from Kickstarter, not the project creator, but KS is making enough money as it is.
The problem with this approach is twofold.
Firstly, you're basically stealing money from the middle man.
Secondly, you'll likely end up banned from further Kickstarters or possibly even from Amazon itself.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: Alright, everyone who is saying "She should have known better, just google "Defiance games" or "Tony Reidy":
When the kickstarter had ended, most of the big Defiance games stuff hadn't gone down.
Obviously she didn't do due diligence and predict Defiance's actions into the future.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
I suspect trying to reverse charges over 6 months old on your card may prove more difficult than you think. The longer time goes on the harder it becomes. Not every bank is going to automatically give you your money back at that point.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
RiTides wrote: Someone in the comments linked to a scandal 4 months before this funded, and they went with Defiance later, after their Chinese manufacturing quote was too high...
Which company are you referring to here?
Scams usually offer something too good to be true to appeal to the greedy as they gloss over the gaps in the story as they think they are getting one over con man.
We don't know all the facts here but I would be very surprised if any company wanted to do business with another company without first checking up on the company, its basic business sense.
AlexHolker wrote: They should have demanded up-front payment for their product, but their plan was otherwise sound.
That seems to be how Defiance themselves operate. If you hire them, they apparently take a large sum of money up front. If they hire you, you ship them before they pay anything from the Rust Forge drama. In any case, all the risk is on the other party in the transaction and not Defiance.
Did you really have to take so little responsibility and say that WE failed? After a nice paragraph in which you say you should take the blame, you write a long text blaming us. Wrong.
Basically, your figures were not produced because the digital files you provided do not work. Yet you try to shift responsibility for that to Defiance. Defiance DID NOT create the digital files. It was never our responsibility to do that. You should admit that, but you do not.
This is your project -- the only person responsible for the fact that Defiance never received workable files is ultimately you, Alyssa. The buck stops with you when it comes to Torn.
After the original files proved unworkable, the vendor you hired to fix them did not provide results which could be manufactured (Did you really want us to try and make a 20 mm resin figure in 5 parts???). Nothing that happened at Defiance, the 'changing of the guard' or the 'turbulent times' changes that.
You claim to have patience. Well, you are now choosing (it is a choice on your part) to close your project. Ultimately, this might still be a fixable problem. We have suggested possible solutions. You have decided not to do that. That is your decision and your responsibility. Do not blame anyone else for it.
I am really disappointed in you.
John Morse
People have already started to ask them why not refund the money.
I like how he glossed over the point that it was his company that specified the file formats. Twice.
Krinsath wrote: Yep, definitely plenty of blame to go around, but I put more of it on Defiance.
Based on the facts presented, Torn Armor gave DG money to produce models. As others have pointed out, nothing was produced, and Torn Armor had agreed to pay expenses incurred in the return of their funds. DG doesn't have the money to pay them back, which indicates the money for the Torn Armor project was already spent elsewhere. So, if the money was already spent, how were they going to pay for the production of the models which, last I checked, still costs money? Yes, the "Rob Peter to pay Paul" setup is DG's MO anymore, and a little bit of research reveals this, but at this point DG seems like they were acting in bad faith by committing monies they hadn't earned to other projects, and now being unable to return the funds to their rightful owner.
Stupid choice in supplier, and even worse to give them such a big chunk of the KS money up front so the Torn Armor folks aren't innocent angels, but they seem like the party deserving the lesser share of the blame.
I 100% agree with this post, sums up the whole situation very well...
There's also a huge difference in term of passive negligence in failing to properly vet a potential supplier, and actively refusing to refund a failed contract.
As a consumer, I wouldn't trust either party with a lot of money, but Torn Armor was un-wise, while Defiance is scummy at best, fraudulent at worst.
I see a lot of people saying if they had mentioned defiance people would have warned them but in Alyssa's initial opening it says one of the backers mentioned defiance as someone to use
Motograter wrote: I see a lot of people saying if they had mentioned defiance people would have warned them but in Alyssa's initial opening it says one of the backers mentioned defiance as someone to use
I wonder if backers name was Tony per chance ......
2014 will be the year of zero GW purchases. Kneadite instead of GS, no paints or models. 2014 will be the year I finally make the move to military models and away from miniature games.
Motograter wrote: I see a lot of people saying if they had mentioned defiance people would have warned them but in Alyssa's initial opening it says one of the backers mentioned defiance as someone to use
I wonder if backers name was Tony per chance ......
as pointed out the KS ended in April and this was before the Rustforge and Proxie models debacle (in fact last March/April they were showing off the vehicles, mech, and hardsuits and were about to release the Chinese so things were actually looking not too bad)
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
Yes, but there was plenty of history prior to that.
Not to mention, when the whole Defiance Games scandal blew up all over the internet in the fall, Torn Armor remained silent that that was who they had given the money to... and only just now came clean on it.
Obviously, Defiance is the huge culprit, but saying they are being totally transparent with backers and yet not revealing that they were also mired in with Defiance, particularly when Rust Forge was taking legal action against them, means they may have missed the boat on a chance to get their money back.
The title of an update is a quote from their production company, on September 26th...
Update Title wrote:Your figures will be fantastic. You have my personal guarantee.
RiTides wrote: Yes, but there was plenty of history prior to that.
Sure but wasn't Gary in charge at this point? Defiance had "turned a new leaf" and was releasing product and being active on their FB page and actually talking to their customers and shipping product. Then I guess Tony decided he wanted to buy a new Land Rover or something
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
How dare they take money off someone who has clearly worked very hard to achieve their goal and their idea, and then have the balls to send a letter like that. Some goddamn people.
okay, I don't believe it either, but all sides should be expressed 
" - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
