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 Theophony wrote:


Then when everything gets produced in two years(still quicker than defiance would have delivered), Tony can rage about how he was usurped again by those evil Americans and their legal teams

I almost feel bad for the pigeons hanging around the park bench which will be forced to hear that ranting raging Tony. That will be about the only audience he draws. Assuming he brings them bread crumbs or stale popcorn.

I do not believe Torn Armor would have been able to deliver the miniatures, with or without Defiance's interference.

30+ miniatures shipped anywhere in the world for $50? Nope.

I do not believe they will deliver them in the future, either, even if they magically get back the x thousand dollars Defiance has. (Just how much is that, anyway? A thousand bucks, five thousand, thirty thousand?)

No one has said for sure, but the speculation is $25,000.

 Ouze wrote:
No one has said for sure, but the speculation is $25,000.

So we're looking at a range of $1 to $67,742?

Well with the help of others there is hope this will get off the ground.

As for the price of $50.00, I'm sure that the backers could see that price, but when this hits retail its not going to be close to that level. We just have to remember that KIckstarter pricing isn't going to be retail or x off of retail like a discounter would get.

 scarletsquig wrote:
If they do manage to sue Defiance Games, then none of the DG KS backers will receive anything.

Of course, the odds of anyone who backed DG receiving anything was quite small in the first place and quite frankly I'm shocked that they were able to raise as much as they did despite everyone on the entire internet screaming "do not back this project" at the time.

Tony Reidy will most likely shut down the company, leave the KS unfulfilled and claim "sorry, but the evil Torn Armor bankrupted us with expensive legal costs it wasn't our fault that they made unreasonable demands that forced us to shut down the hard work and excellent progress we were making on the models for you".. and, as usual, a certain majority of people will believe that line and then when he starts another company a few months later there will be support and people putting down blind pre-orders.

How it appears to others is insignificant. TA has an obligation to do everything they can to provide for their customers. Tony can set a new company all he likes, you simply refile the lien on that company. Since hes in the US there are not very many simple ways to bypass court judgements.

 Theophony wrote:
Well with the help of others there is hope this will get off the ground.

As for the price of $50.00, I'm sure that the backers could see that price, but when this hits retail its not going to be close to that level. We just have to remember that KIckstarter pricing isn't going to be retail or x off of retail like a discounter would get.

Oh, I'm sure. The point being that it is physically impossible to pay for raw materials for 30+ figures and ship anywhere in the world without losing a ton of money. I don't believe this KS had any chance of successful fulfillment to begin with. The Defiance stuff just piles onto it.

reference: going by Mark's educated guess as to costs to fulfill
"Total cost $81.60 : to deliver 39 miniatures to the backers
Collected $50.00
Net -$31.60 "
source http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/575288.page#6472518

More than likely what happened is that whatsherface realized that and then Tony arrived on a white horse with pie in the sky promises (he's really good at those) about how it could really make it work out...

Result, suspension of disbelief and loss of cash.

 agnosto wrote:
More than likely what happened is that whatsherface realized that and then Tony arrived on a white horse with pie in the sky promises (he's really good at those) about how it could really make it work out...

Result, suspension of disbelief and loss of cash.

Regardless, too goo to be true is too good to be true. In the end I hope backers get what they pledged for however I'd be happy if both parties involved with this no longer work in this hobby.

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
More than likely what happened is that whatsherface realized that and then Tony arrived on a white horse with pie in the sky promises (he's really good at those) about how it could really make it work out...

Result, suspension of disbelief and loss of cash.

Regardless, too goo to be true is too good to be true. In the end I hope backers get what they pledged for however I'd be happy if both parties involved with this no longer work in this hobby.

QFT, good riddance to a couple of halfwits.

If people are going to blame Torn Armour for promising too much with too little cash, they ought to remember the epithet, "If a thing looks too good to be true, it probably is", and blame themselves for contributing.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If people are going to blame Torn Armour for promising too much with too little cash, they ought to remember the epithet, "If a thing looks too good to be true, it probably is", and blame themselves for contributing.

I'm a big supporter of Kickstarter. I'm also a big supporter of people doing alittle digging on the project creator before backing... Taking a shot on a $20 game is one thing, but with Torn the average pledge was around the $100 mark.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If people are going to blame Torn Armour for promising too much with too little cash, they ought to remember the epithet, "If a thing looks too good to be true, it probably is", and blame themselves for contributing.

Kickstarter is one of those grey areas in consumer protections. I mean, you really are backing something pretty ephemeral, and there are pretty common and understandable reasons a kickstarter can fail, even without fraud or malice.

While I'd never let a company off the hook for a failed KS, I think the community, on the whole, is too blase about the smaller kickstarters at times.

Had to google "blasé" to remind myself . So, basically, indifferent?

Do you mean indifferent to their failure, or indifferent to their efforts, or to their credentials? I think there has been a ton of attention (and money!) paid to small KS campaigns, but folks are seeing just how risky they are now.

I'm still extremely happy to have taken the risk with many campaigns that are still working through issues delivering: Dreamforge, Trollforged, Warsmith's Warboard, Anarchy Stencils, Secret Weapon Tablescapes... all of these are late, but have been communicating well and are working through things.

So, to me it's not a question of whether or not they're going to hit snags- it's how they deal with them. I was very unhappy with Torn's initial update, which sounded like throwing in the towel. Their newer update is much better- get the game out, and continue to pursue having the figures made. That at least shows effort, and gets the backers something.

Kickstarting something is really as much about the journey as the end product, for me... and you don't throw in the towel on your dream! So, very glad they rectified that and will be pushing forward with what they can once again.

Companies like CMoN and Mantic have set the expectations of oodles of models for the cost of a night out at the movies.
Smaller companies often get caught out trying to match that to meet unrealistic expectations (Redbox KS1).

TORN might have expected to put in a considerable chunk of their own money to make the complete game they envisioned. We really have no idea and it's a little nauseating to see people wishing failure on a gaming company that has shown no more incompetence or mismanagement than dozens of bigger, more veteran companies, that went the crowd funding route.
Apparently I forgot I was on the internet.

I mean blase about the potential to fail. I have faith that Reaper, or Mantic, or Secret Weapon, or any business with a rep to protect will deliver something.

A company I've never heard of that's using kickstarter to get off the ground, no expand? That's risky. Don't get me wrong, I've backed garage shop projects, but you have to really weigh if you can afford to just lose that pledge.

I think those are the most fun kinds of kickstarter, because it's awesome when they come trhough, but there are times to really remember that a kickstarter isn't just a complicated pre-order mechanism, even if it feels like it at times.

Defiance have indicated twice a desire to offer forth a plan to reimburse our money and told me twice when they would make those offers. They did not meet either one.

We are now in legal proceedings and our attorney will be negotiating for us.

Regardless of ... them ... we're proceeding with Torn Armor, because - frankly - you have to do a whole lot more than lie to me and take my money to stop me delivering on a dream.

~ Natalya

Can we have a show of hands for all those surprised by this?

 judgedoug wrote:
reference: going by Mark's educated guess as to costs to fulfill
"Total cost $81.60 : to deliver 39 miniatures to the backers
Collected $50.00
Net -$31.60 "
source http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/575288.page#6472518

Volume sales, my man.

While Mark offers some insight in costs, it is far from the be all, end all in producing miniatures.

My cost per figure for casting in house is around 50 cents per (roughly) 35mm figure. That includes the molding and materials. Figure another 5-10 cents per figure for labor if I needed to charge myself that.

Several commercial companies are down at or below $1 per figure. Old Glory is in that range. Victory Force is often under $2 per figure. Zombiesmith is in the $2 range. In most cases, they offer wholesale terms as well (which means they are selling at 50% of retail to distributors).

Resin has some added costs, but even considering low volume and mold replacement, the last time I calculated those, I was still under $2 per figure to produce, with many of the simpler molds being close to the cost of white metal (granted more labor involved).

While the Torn numbers might not leave any breathing room, $50 per backer for 39 miniatures. Luckily though, the math isnt $50 per 39 miniatures. The average pledge was $121 per backer. I havent gone through the backer list to figure out exactly what the mix is for those getting games and miniatures and all that, but $121 per backer with the posted add on prices from their page ($15 for 5 monopose humans...) it probably covers the costs well enough.

You dont have much wiggle room, but Kickstarters really are not about having a whole lot of wiggle room in many cases. While they are a retail business model for some companies, they are also a way to get product to market for others. They plan on making their money once it is in production and in stores.

Yep what I gave was a very narrow estimate, based on my experience with service providers. When I produced my own for myself the costs were obviously lower. I do not see my estimate as accurate, more as a gauge. Honestly, the postage is the killer.

The Elephant in the room is that you never know how much the KS creator is bringing to the table so really it is all just an exercise with little bearing on what may be reality.

Furthermore it has nothing to do with the core issue, which is Defiance Games took money for services they admit the did not provide and now are unable/unwilling to return the unspent portion. Everything ells is nothing more than conjecture and distraction.

True enough, I just wanted to make sure it was understood that while the wiggle room is very slim, it is still feasible (in theory) to deliver at the stated price point.

Overseas shipping would probably knock it into the red, but in the red does not mean failure. If the end result ends up being a product and supporting line of accessories which can then go into retail distribution, throwing in several thousand out of pocket can still be successful in the long run (when compared to development costs outside of Kickstarter supported products).

I should also mention I have no dog in this hunt, other than a general bad taste in my mouth regarding Defiance. Never had an interest in Torn or what they are doing, but I know it is possible to do a whole lot with a relatively small capital investment provided you are putting forth a good amount of the work yourself.

Once you start having to rely on contract sculptors, contract casters, contract writers, contract artists... well, then things get expensive really fast.

I'd like to see them get this off the ground.

Maybe cut down a little on the smoke and mirrors, and KISS (keep it simple stupid).

I really wound like a few of thier mice, and that Red Riding hood stand in they have there.

These guys will go great with Fanticide.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Once you start having to rely on contract sculptors, contract casters, contract writers, contract artists... well, then things get expensive really fast.

This is actually what they're doing (contracting all of that out) hence it being quite reasonable what NoseGoblin said, that they'd have to supplement what they raised. I agree with your prior point that if you do all/most of these things yourself, that you can get a lot done with little capital... but that's not what Torn is doing.

However, I also agree with NoseGoblin that this really isn't the issue atm, anyway... once they recoup their funds from Defiance, if they then still can make no progress on delivering miniatures, it will be on them. But right now, Defiance is the issue, holding a decent portion of their funds hostage.

 RiTides wrote:
holding a decent portion of their funds hostage.

Not that I'm looking to defend Defiance, but do we actually know how much money they have?
I just like facts.

They may have a non-disclosure, rigeld2.

rigeld2 wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
holding a decent portion of their funds hostage.

Not that I'm looking to defend Defiance, but do we actually know how much money they have?
I just like facts.

Doesn't matter really. Businesses are supposed to keep the monies separate for just these sort of problems. When you just lump all your cash in one account then it shows poor fiscal responsibility. That combined with their inability to do everything else shows they should quit their day job

I'm not denying that - I just hate assumptions and the assumption is that the amount is significant.

Again, not defending, just would love some facts instead of he said she said.

It's not an assumption- it's an implication. Torn has heavily implied in their postings that it was a significant percentage of the funds, but haven't revealed how much / exactly what that number is. That's all we have to go off of... not sure what else to tell you.

 RiTides wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Once you start having to rely on contract sculptors, contract casters, contract writers, contract artists... well, then things get expensive really fast.

This is actually what they're doing (contracting all of that out) hence it being quite reasonable what NoseGoblin said, that they'd have to supplement what they raised. I agree with your prior point that if you do all/most of these things yourself, that you can get a lot done with little capital... but that's not what Torn is doing.

While we know for sure the contract casting aspect, are we sure about the rest? I know that from time to time creative types will get into thing based on a percentage of sales versus regular flat contract fees. Some will just get involved to help out a long standing friend (while different, take a look at all those who stepped up for Goblinaid). They might have gotten a lot of those services for free, especially if her time working at the various companies she mentions was spent well.

There are way too many unknowns for anyone to declare as adamantly as some have that this project was doomed to fail, and as so many have mentioned, it doesnt excuse money being held by Defiance...whether it is $20 or $25,000

I'm curious about something.

Why do so many people think that Torn entered into this KS with no other cash?

Wouldn't it make more sense that they entered it with the cash available to handle the non-miniature portion of initial production?
Then the 50k goal makes more sense, as that would roughly cover miniature costs.
That leaves them to cover the paper components, dice, shipping, and other costs.
Once you have purchased and created molds, and got a production slot, you can go to retail.

The goal of 50k by itself would never have covered everything, even a layman can see that, so they had to have some other capital to use.

At least that's my view of it.
Maybe I just can't fathom going to KS with a plan that cannot go forward at all without backer money.
If that was the plan, the initial goal was simply too low.

And all of this is besides the point that Defiance took money, did nothing, and won't give it back because they no longer have it.