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 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Plus if they charged you retail for the models then they are making 40% off of you as well since they probably have a retail account with GW.

Very, very, very good point.

even if they dont its safe to assume they could order in bulk from discount online stores for atleats 30% off (not counting the trade ins they get and use for like 10% OF retail)

As most of the other members here have said I think you got charged way too much for the paint job they did (even factoring in the fact that includes the cost of the models).

Granted yes from a Tabletop level they probably do look alright (I can only see one pic someone linked as the others don't work for me) but even then, some of the areas (head-dress especially) could have been a bit tidier considering the money paid and time taken.

These are crud for what you paid. My friend paid a gut to paint a squad of Necrons and a Lord for a tenner and they came out better than this. /I/ could paint better than this (in most places) and I honestly suck xD

EDIT:
Also the gold is far too thick, the marines were badly done.

Just gonna go ahead and jump on the bandwagon.

For the cost, these are a joke. Mistake ridden paint jobs and bases with dry brushed card board.

I'm no master painter by any stretch of the imagination, but I can do better than this.

I'm saying this because it seems like you got taken to the cleaners and treated poorly. Just because they had bigger projects come in doesn't mean you should get bumped back in line. ESPECIALLY since you paid as much as you did. I honestly think you need to get on the phone and ask for you money back. Send them an e-mail with a link to this thread.

I'll say this, if the OP is happy with the models than it doesn't really matter what your opinions are. I do know, however, that the charge was too much and the wait was too long. Sorry brah!

Joining in with everyone else here. You got ripped off.

If it were not for dry-brushing and dipping, I am not sure BTP would be in business. As far as factoring in the cost of the minis, the OP stated that he got a $60 discount (for the wait) and $60 for trade-in value on some stuff but full value on this was $445, about $75 of which was model cost. So....roughly 4.25x cost for the painting....sorry seems excessive at that skill level.

Let's not kick BTP to the kirb so readily guys. They seem like a nice enough bunch of people. The paint job isn't as bad as people seem to be saying. If this had been posted up without knowing it was from BTP I think people would have a more positive attitude. Obviously businesses are held up to higher standards. I do think they might charge a bit much for what they do but then again it is a multiple employee business.

Google Samsonminis please as Sam Lenz left BTP and he is a hell of a lot better then them and fairly at a quick speed.

I never thought I'd say this, but I reckon I could have done a better job, and I'd class myself as mediocre at best!

Really don't think you got value for money there. I'd second emailing them a link to this thread and asking for a partial refund - threads like these are anti-adverts...

Okay, as a fellow commission painter, I'll wade in here.

Firstly, the paintjob.

It's a fairly mid standard tabletop quality job. Viewed from two feet away, I would say these would look decent on the table, however up close as people have suggested, there are some significant defects, the largest being the mistakes around the helmets and that the metal and cloth could use a little recessing, along with other more minor concerns. That said, all round it's not a terrible job.

Secondly, the pricing

Okay... it is a little steep. I would probably have charged about £140 to paint and base these, which is supposedly around $230. If the items themselves were to be sourced by myself, the total goes up to perhaps around $300-320 american. All in all, yes I would say work of this standard should be a little cheaper than it was here. Considering there was a $60 discount, yeah... overpriced.

Thirdly, the timeframe.

No. Just no. Personally, I would have a job like this done within a couple of weeks, and generally to give myself a margin of error, I would probably estimate a minimum two weeks, perhaps three to the client before starting to ensure no disappointment. Six months is plain ridiculous, and suggests that the work was taken when BTP already had all their painters busy with queues that would last for months before getting to his job. That is unprofessional and greedy. I have a queue myself of half a dozen projects, and each of the last 3-4 clients got a mail immediately stating there would be a 3-4 week delay before I could begin, and sought their confirmation if they wished to go ahead with my services. That is how it should be done.

You know, the sad thing is, a recent client of mine stated he had waited 8 months for another company to complete 20 figures... I had them off to him inside two weeks. I still don't understand where these horror stories come from.


Frankly OP, if you are looking to get a 2500pt army done, I'm awailable for new work in a month, and will have an army of that size done within about 2-3 at the most.

Website's in the sig.

After FINALLY being able to see a pic (thanks Scrub), I have to say that the models aren't bad. I think they look good. If some one were to post them on this forum, I wouldn't have much to critique.

I think people's biggest issue is not with the paint job, but rather the price you paid for that paint job. I think I have to agree with every other post here. My biggest issue is how long they made you wait and the tiny discount they gave you .

I would suggest that you test out a different painting service and see if 1) you like them, and 2) they can match your BTP stuff. I'd commission one squad and send one of the BTP modesl and see how close they can get to the BTP model.

 RavensNestPainting wrote:
You know, the sad thing is, a recent client of mine stated he had waited 8 months for another company to complete 20 figures... I had them off to him inside two weeks. I still don't understand where these horror stories come from.

I think it mainly comes down to not knowing any better. When I first began seeking out commission painters I experienced massive delays with deadlines and just thought that was the nature of the beast. As a slow painter I figured other people painted slowly and delays would be natural occurrences.

Another problem is that commission painting seems to mostly be filled by part-time painters who take on work as a supplement to their "real" job(s), and that quickly breeds scheduling conflicts. I played that game for a few years, and It wasn't until I found a service that was consistent with meeting scheduled deadlines that I realized what dealing with a real professional service meant versus dealing with an amateur with a website photo gallery. It sucks, especially if you are new to the commissioned paint work game, because you really can get taken for a ride by the wrong paint service. But, it does make the good services shine all the brighter.

Agreed, this is my full time job, so I appreciate your point.

That much said, when taking a job, the company should state the estimated working time, and if they are doing it on the side of a normal full time job, that should be factored in.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 RavensNestPainting wrote:
You know, the sad thing is, a recent client of mine stated he had waited 8 months for another company to complete 20 figures... I had them off to him inside two weeks. I still don't understand where these horror stories come from.

I think it mainly comes down to not knowing any better. When I first began seeking out commission painters I experienced massive delays with deadlines and just thought that was the nature of the beast. As a slow painter I figured other people painted slowly and delays would be natural occurrences.

Another problem is that commission painting seems to mostly be filled by part-time painters who take on work as a supplement to their "real" job(s), and that quickly breeds scheduling conflicts. I played that game for a few years, and It wasn't until I found a service that was consistent with meeting scheduled deadlines that I realized what dealing with a real professional service meant versus dealing with an amateur with a website photo gallery. It sucks, especially if you are new to the commissioned paint work game, because you really can get taken for a ride by the wrong paint service. But, it does make the good services shine all the brighter.

That's a little hard on part-time commission painters, man. There are plenty of great part-time painters out there - you've just gotta be a smart customer so you can spot the sketchy services and avoid them like the plague. Not everyone can - or should - maintain a day-job AND try to do commissions. Plus there's the fact that many (I'd say most) people that take up commission painting part-time have no idea what they're getting into. Most people will quit after 2-3 jobs due to burnout, but a few adapt to it after the first couple jobs and really learn to enjoy it. These are the people you want to hire. If a commission service has been consistently doing jobs for more than 4-5 years, you know they're probably serious about what they're doing.

As an aside, one of the pitfalls I and so many other part-time commission painters fall into is overestimating how much work we can handle at once. I've had plenty of experience with this myself. It really sucks, and not just for the customer: as a painter, it makes me feel like crap to have to tell customers that I've screwed up and taken on too much work at once and have to delay their job. Basically, everybody loses.

This even happens to big studios like BTP - IIRC, they were completely snowed under with work for the best part of last year.

~Tim?

 Medium of Death wrote:
Let's not kick BTP to the kirb so readily guys. They seem like a nice enough bunch of people. The paint job isn't as bad as people seem to be saying. If this had been posted up without knowing it was from BTP I think people would have a more positive attitude. Obviously businesses are held up to higher standards. I do think they might charge a bit much for what they do but then again it is a multiple employee business.

I can honestly say I've never even heard of BTP until now. When I finally got the images to work I cringed and went back to see who had done it. I have nothing against commission painters, but I have never felt that spending the money was ever worth it. So, when I see something that appears below my painting level at that cost, I can't keep my mouth closed. It just seems unfair.

As an artist myself (outside of mini painting as well) I know when my work is crap. To send their work out the door like this and to still charge the inflated price they did is just unethical and bad business.

If OP is happy, that's fine and great. But if you go out and spend 350 on a haircut and you come back looking like you got into a fight with a lawn mower, im going to tell you. Otherwise you just enable their (the people that provided him the service) poor workmanship to continue.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

That's a little hard on part-time commission painters, man. There are plenty of great part-time painters out there - you've just gotta be a smart customer so you can spot the sketchy services and avoid them like the plague. Not everyone can - or should - maintain a day-job AND try to do commissions. Plus there's the fact that many (I'd say most) people that take up commission painting part-time have no idea what they're getting into. Most people will quit after 2-3 jobs due to burnout, but a few adapt to it after the first couple jobs and really learn to enjoy it. These are the people you want to hire. If a commission service has been consistently doing jobs for more than 4-5 years, you know they're probably serious about what they're doing.

As an aside, one of the pitfalls I and so many other part-time commission painters fall into is overestimating how much work we can handle at once. I've had plenty of experience with this myself. It really sucks, and not just for the customer: as a painter, it makes me feel like crap to have to tell customers that I've screwed up and taken on too much work at once and have to delay their job. Basically, everybody loses.

This even happens to big studios like BTP - IIRC, they were completely snowed under with work for the best part of last year.

~Tim?

As a part-time painter I understand your taking umbrage with what I wrote, but I wasn't trying to disparage part-time painters as a whole, as much as offer an explanation to RavensNestPainting as to why so many people are used to, and willing to put up with, slow service from painters. There are some great part-time painters out there, but many of the horror stories that get shared over and over about paint commissions gone wrong are often the result of part-time painters taking on more work than they can reasonably do (as you freely admit is a pitfall of being a part-time painter). So, no, I don't think I am being hard on part-time painters. I'd argue the vast majority of commission painters are part-timers, so it stands to reason the most problems would come from that demographic. Certainly variables can ruin the schedule of a full-time paint studio just as easily as a part-time painter, but in my experience, the odds are better in a full-time painter meeting a deadline than a part-timer.

Regarding length of time in the business as an indicator of reliability, well that isn't always cut and dry either. Last year I received the last model in a 3 model commission by a well known, respected, part-time commission painter that had years of private and commercial commission work under his belt. Guess what? The commission was delayed for almost two years due to "schedule issues" which destroyed my working relationship with the painter (who I had used reliably for a few years before this snag occurred). So, gak happens, but it is usually people with a job, family, and other demands on their time that will push your models off the priority queue faster than someone who is doing painting 8 hours a day 5 days a week as a regular job.

Finally, I think it is a little naive to think that the burden of vetting a painter should fall squarely on the shoulders of a would-be customer. Yeah, a customer should check out a painter's credentials before sending material and money out for a commission, but with so many commission painters popping up on forums, eBay, and Facebook, its impossible to really know what you are getting into until it is too late. Commission painting is risky from the customer's point of view and there are just too many new services popping up monthly to properly vet them all. The painter thread on DakkaDakka is a great resource that can help people weed out potential problems, but even that is a drop in the bucket. It is usually trial and error, and much of that trial and errors results in lost time, money, and miniatures for commission service customers. It is an imperfect system that requires some dedication on both the commission painter and the customer in order to make the process work.

That is why I am insanely loyal to the painters whom I routinely work with, because I have slogged through a mire of donkey-caves who have wasted my time, and I greatly appreciate those painters who take their profession seriously.

um from what i can tell he said he got 2500 points painted yeah?

at 325?

im guessing he supplied the models (otherwise ...)

but say BTP has 1 guy doing this. thats roughly 4 days to build/paint 2500 points if that guy is making minimum wage... sorry.. think about it.

So, I think these models have convinced me (after I managed to find a link to pics that worked) to never purchase from BTP. This is some seriously sub-par work.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
These are crud for what you paid. My friend paid a gut to paint a squad of Necrons and a Lord for a tenner and they came out better than this. /I/ could paint better than this (in most places) and I honestly suck xD

EDIT:
Also the gold is far too thick, the marines were badly done.

just because some idiot somewhere at some point in time decided to work for free doesn't mean that everyone will do that. lol

sleep6 wrote:
um from what i can tell he said he got 2500 points painted yeah?

at 325?

im guessing he supplied the models (otherwise ...)

but say BTP has 1 guy doing this. thats roughly 4 days to build/paint 2500 points if that guy is making minimum wage... sorry.. think about it.

No he said he WANTS to get 2500 points painted....all that got painted was 10 1ksons and a demon prince.

and $445 was supposed to be the original cost ......... wow. Email and Link time my friend, as others have said.

If you had said you painted these yourself and posted them I would've said yea pretty good , just need to clean some stuff up and they'd be pretty good.

However the fact that a company painted these and a company that claims a lot of business at that, sent these out the door AND that late to top it all off, well that is in fact unacceptable. Sorry we're not trying to be mean and bash your models or anything its just as a group we are going to hold them to a higher standard, 3/5 or not they should at least be clean looking.

I've seen BTP work upclose in person. Like some have said before, they do the job at distance. Upclose they are gak. The stuff that gets brought to adepticon every year for their booth is sub par to a lot of the miniature you see over the entire weekend. At one time probably 3-4 years ago I remember someone Traded in a Armorcast Phantom for terrain. From what I remember, The terrain took longer to make/paint than it did to resell the titan and an eldar army to go with it. Kicker was the terrain came out looking like gak, seeing specific parts of Pringle cans and the like.

I know a guy that had worked there, prior to this current studio and last, saying its quantity over quality, not the opposite. At the same time a good friend of mine, had commissioned some eldar work to compare to others. He supplied the minis, do believe most were assembled and what he got in return for what he paid was worse then what the OP had received. The bottom of skimmers weren't painted, major gems were skipped, simple stuff forgotten. At our local Cons here in Denver, there is 1 player I know has a BTP army, found the photos after seeing them on a video and after playing the person too. Quality put in as everyone has said should have been better.

Granted now, some of the work as improved, mainly that of their Infinity stuff which at the booth at FoB was fantastic, I'd suggest going through someone else. Taking 6 months to complete 2 squads and a DP, screw that. Only getting a 60 discount and 60 store credit for the time it took and from what I read getting his project pushed back for more important ones...dude you got ripped off good and proper. Their Valhalla vacation thing too is another rip off. Asking 1250 for a weekend-not include travel, to stay in a 4 person bunk room, and have my food provided. I'd be able to go to Adepticon including travel, including events, food, and spending money for less then that and have a better time.

I think some important numbers to post, ill put them up in the OP as well.

Model cost: 129.94
Painting cost: 123.89
Assembly Cost: 23.47
Decorative Bases: 11.61
Total cost: 288.91 for wages/supplies expenses
The other $95 I paid was their profit.

I got $60 off the 288.91 and $60 of what was the $155 profits payment, for a total of ~$325 out of my wallet.

 changerofways wrote:
I think some important numbers to post, ill put them up in the OP as well.

Model cost: 129.94
Painting cost: 123.89
Assembly Cost: 23.47
Decorative Bases: 11.61
Total cost: 288.91 for wages/supplies expenses
The other $95 I paid was their profit.

I got $60 off the 288.91 and $60 of what was the $155 profits payment, for a total of ~$325 out of my wallet.

How much was that daemon prince model, And was it a Scribor Mini as A squad of Chaos space marines plus Thousand sons upgrade pack is only $58 dollors, Providing that was US prices you put down. If the daemon p[rince had exstencive work done for converting etc then the model prices would not be that bad.

Not a fan. Gold colors are very meh and as said not filled in.(My golds on standard joes are four colors) Looks like the blue is not a lot more than a drybrush over the darker blue with a glaze. Thinking you got hosed.

If you like them then great, it is your money after all, but it looks like incomplete work. Not even any dirt or mud on their boots. Didn't notice any highlighting. Not that I would pay someone to paint my stuff but this good advertisement not to buy from them.

kb305 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
These are crud for what you paid. My friend paid a gut to paint a squad of Necrons and a Lord for a tenner and they came out better than this. /I/ could paint better than this (in most places) and I honestly suck xD

EDIT:
Also the gold is far too thick, the marines were badly done.

just because some idiot somewhere at some point in time decided to work for free doesn't mean that everyone will do that. lol

In fairness the guy was a bit stretched for cash.. He's also greedy x'D But yeah, they didn't come out well either but they sure as hell came out better than these..

I found the word I was looking for

Sloppy
They're not badly done, it's just a few major errors that let down the whole batch.

kb305 wrote:


just because some idiot somewhere at some point in time decided to work for free doesn't mean that everyone will do that. lol

A thousand times this. Some people seem to think that some poor college kid scraping some cash together is a benchmark for quality work these days.

I know a guy who had his roof done by somebody doing it on the cheap. It collapsed 2 weeks later because of the cruddy rushed job. If you want quality, you pay...

Except for the OP here, I'm afraid he paid without getting quality. Sloppy work indeed, especially for a 6 month waiting time.

What I don't understand about BTP everytime I see a vid with a walkthrough of their workshop is that I see no one using an airbrush. It seems almost impossible to paint a large amount of minis within a tight timeframe without the use of airbrushes.
Their paintjobs are mediocre at best and this one is no exception. Slap of paint all over the place.