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I have recently started a Red Scorpions Army (Using the Space Marine Codex for selection and chapter tactics) and am going for a Mechanised list at 1850 points comprised of units of Tactical Marines in Rhinos, Land Speeder Typhoons and Vindicators. I have Tigirius (Sevrin Loth Model) as my HQ and want a retinue unit to go with him. I am undecided between the following unit builds:

Command Squad 210
5 Plasma Guns, Rhino

Or

7 Sternguard 229
3 Combi Meltas, Rhino

Vindicators aside, I don't have a massive amount of High Strength low AP shooting, the Tacs come with Meltaguns and that's about it. Since the introduction of the new Tyranid codex allow MC spam to become easier, and with units such as Riptides and the like being in abundance. The Sternguard's AP3 or Hellfire shells do not come into much effect.

So as a general question, what do the people of Dakka think would be the better choice? Bear in mind this will be the unit Tigirus is placed in, and will most likely choose the Divination primaris for Re-Rolls to hit no matter what unit I choose.

I can post the list if it's needed.

Thanks.

I'd probably go for the Command Squad. If you lack high strength low AP shooting, you can't go wrong with 5 BS 4 Plasma Guns. The Sternguard special ammo is ap 3 but also gets hot and is only strength 4. Anything that has a 2+ armour save is probably a pretty big threat and you'll want to make sure you're causing as many wounds as possible, strength 4 just doesn't cut it. You'll be rolling a 4+ vs terminators and 6s on most monstrous creatures, whears plasma guns will wound on 2s against most things and can reliably splat monstrous creatures.

Problem with a command squad is that the rhino is just too fragile. For a unit with such a devestating short range shooting attack, you need something better than av 11 since any enemy will prioritise them quickly. I'd reccommend a drop pod (if command squads can take them, i don't have the codex on-hand).

I'd always take a Sternguard squad over a command squad.

xruslanx wrote:
I'd probably go for the Command Squad. If you lack high strength low AP shooting, you can't go wrong with 5 BS 4 Plasma Guns. The Sternguard special ammo is ap 3 but also gets hot and is only strength 4. Anything that has a 2+ armour save is probably a pretty big threat and you'll want to make sure you're causing as many wounds as possible, strength 4 just doesn't cut it. You'll be rolling a 4+ vs terminators and 6s on most monstrous creatures, whears plasma guns will wound on 2s against most things and can reliably splat monstrous creatures.

Problem with a command squad is that the rhino is just too fragile. For a unit with such a devestating short range shooting attack, you need something better than av 11 since any enemy will prioritise them quickly. I'd reccommend a drop pod (if command squads can take them, i don't have the codex on-hand).

Sternguard against 2+ saves will just use their poison ammunition and wound anything on 2+ without getting hot.

Command Squads can take Drop Pods as dedicated transport, the problem I see with it is, as they are going with Tigirius I don't want the unit to become a complete suicide unit, as Tiggy is my only HQ, will provide a number of benefits for my army. I understand you want to make sure you'd be using the weapons in the game. Maybe it'd be better if I showed you my list and we can see what unit would be best to take:

HQ:

Tigirius (Using the Sevrin Loth Model) 165

Troops:

10 Tactical Marines 195
Meltagun, Multi Melta, Rhino

10 Tactical Marines 195
Meltagun, Multi Melta, Rhino

10 Tactical Marines 195
Meltagun, Multi Melta, Rhino

5 Scouts 110
4 Shotguns, Land Speeder Storm, Sergeant has Combi Melta

5 Scouts 110
4 Shotguns, Land Speeder Storm, Sergeant has Combi Melta

Fast Attack:

2 Land Speeder Typhoons 150

2 Land Speeder Typhoons 150

Stormtalon 125
Skyhammer Missiles

Heavy Support:

Vindicator 125

Vindicator 125

1615/1850

Without either unit, my list comes to this points cost: I could also plan (and am debating) on whether to drop a scout unit to free up more points, which could get more options, so what do you think best suits my list?

In response to Jim, I was originally taking Sternguard but have recently looked at new Tyranid Army lists, along with Triptide and have reconsidered the volume of AP2 Weaponry needed in my force.

Agtthot wrote:

Sternguard against 2+ saves will just use their poison ammunition and wound anything on 2+ without getting hot.

Problem is, they'll still get their 2+ saves, which means you're not doing many wounds at all.

Thanks.

I'd always take a command squad over a Sternguard squad.

Depending on how much terrain you use, you can use your other rhino(s) to provide a cover save to your command rhino (at least against some shooting) as you get into range. This doesn't work in all cases, of course, but it could help in many.

All of those plasma guns are great but remember that they are only marines. They die to lasguns fire and every loss significantly reduces their benefit to your list. The sternguard are amazing at being a flexible unit to fit many situations. I'd go with the sternguard and if you're dead set on combi weapons I'd either go plasma or grav. Seeing as they are escorting your only HQ melta combos really don't fit unless you really want to give up first blood and warlord. On a side note my FLGS has introduced a house rule VP called "last laugh". It's a VP for the player that was the last person to obliterate a unit and it's balanced out first blood pretty well in our tournies.

I just think, when compared with Sternguard, the Command Squad is better in a lot of situations (MEQ's and MCs, and even light vehicles and the like). Whilst the Sternguard has ammunition which can wound on 2+, Plasma does this anyway and ignores armour saves, that just leaves the longer range rounds, which are made mostly redundant by the fact i'm going to be advancing with them. I'm totally undecided as the Sternguard do put out more shots and bodies, but the Command Squad allows me to spend a remaining 135 points elsewhere, compared to 116 with the Sternguard. I'm looking at either a TFC or a Predator to complete the list.

Does anyone know which one would suit my list the best?

 GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
I just think, when compared with Sternguard, the Command Squad is better in a lot of situations (MEQ's and MCs, and even light vehicles and the like). Whilst the Sternguard has ammunition which can wound on 2+, Plasma does this anyway and ignores armour saves, that just leaves the longer range rounds, which are made mostly redundant by the fact i'm going to be advancing with them. I'm totally undecided as the Sternguard do put out more shots and bodies, but the Command Squad allows me to spend a remaining 135 points elsewhere, compared to 116 with the Sternguard. I'm looking at either a TFC or a Predator to complete the list.

Does anyone know which one would suit my list the best?

You Could always throw the command squad on bikes for an extra 35pts

That would up them to T5, up their mobility and ability to hide behind cover / other units, give them a jink save, and give them relentless fire with the plasma

And if I've read the codex and Army Builder is correct, they can still buy the rhino (Units can buy transports they will not be embarked upon) for a mobile ablative shield

I personally think that that command squad sounds the bees knees and would be even better with Tigirius. An absolute pain for MEQ's.

I prefer to play Sternguard, but I will admit that is my personal choice. If your gonna go for the Stern's, do combi Plas instead. That way you still get one round of "magic" plasma shooting as well as the 2+ poison, or the other very situational rounds. The plasma round can still be modded by Tiggy and with all the rhino's, you might just make it across the table with a rhino "sheild" in front of the important one.

I do run a Grav biker squad, grav, grav, combi grav, but thats my first turn TEQ or tank stopper. something about a 30" threat range..

Naked Sternguard are now a super value. Well, not super value because marine armor sucks, but a good value we'll say.

Agtthot wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
I'd probably go for the Command Squad. If you lack high strength low AP shooting, you can't go wrong with 5 BS 4 Plasma Guns. The Sternguard special ammo is ap 3 but also gets hot and is only strength 4. Anything that has a 2+ armour save is probably a pretty big threat and you'll want to make sure you're causing as many wounds as possible, strength 4 just doesn't cut it. You'll be rolling a 4+ vs terminators and 6s on most monstrous creatures, whears plasma guns will wound on 2s against most things and can reliably splat monstrous creatures.

Problem with a command squad is that the rhino is just too fragile. For a unit with such a devestating short range shooting attack, you need something better than av 11 since any enemy will prioritise them quickly. I'd reccommend a drop pod (if command squads can take them, i don't have the codex on-hand).

Sternguard against 2+ saves will just use their poison ammunition and wound anything on 2+ without getting hot.

What does wounding on 2+ have to do with 2+ armour save? and with str 7 on the plasma you will be wounding on 2+ against most infantry (as far as I am aware the majority aren't toughness 6 or more) and, with divination re-rolls to hit, get's hot isn't that big a deal. I would say go for the command squad, with only str 4 on the sternguard there will only be limited uses for them even the 2+ to wound hellfire rounds aren't even that usefull with such high AP on the rounds it makes even wounding high toughness things uneffective as most high toughness units have good armour saves.

You could always take the command squad and 5 sternguard veterans, get the best of both, though their mobility might be a problem

Sorry, maybe I'm missing something here. Does a command squad even have access to the special weapons list??? Iirc they can get only melee and ranged weapon lists.

Iirc you must have a commander to unlock a command squad...
But anywayz, one of the best options are biker comsquad with gravguns or plazmas with an apothecary accompanied by someone on a bike.
Sternguard belong in a drop pod.

 Barksdale wrote:
Sorry, maybe I'm missing something here. Does a command squad even have access to the special weapons list??? Iirc they can get only melee and ranged weapon lists.

Check the FAQ.

Corollax wrote:

 Barksdale wrote:
Sorry, maybe I'm missing something here. Does a command squad even have access to the special weapons list??? Iirc they can get only melee and ranged weapon lists.

Check the FAQ.

Thanks. I should have known better.