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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:25:16
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You can get cheaper miniatures than from Mantic games. But price aside, Mantic is positioned to give the customer what GW isn't. A large part of that is good, largely free, game rules; low cost of entry to start playing; trim, small model count games, and customer and community support.
This is mostly stuff GW did back when the folks at Mantic were working for GW. It isn't rocket science to figure out what is going on there.
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Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:27:28
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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What about them? 35 quid for 10 miniatures is 3.5 per Mini. 50 pence more expensive than Mantic's dwarfs quoted above, though unlike the latter, GW's come with an abundance of options (multiple banners, music instruments, 16 different head options, etc. etc.. compared to the mono-pose Mantic ones).
GW more expensive with many options. Mantic "slipstreaming" slightly behind the GW price with simpler miniatures.
My point all along, no?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:29:35
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Alpharius wrote:Agreed, and underscores how badly Mantic is dropping the ball with their nagging issues that continue to crop up.
Hence, Mantic. Almost.
GW is in a position of weakness that they haven't been in since...forever?
There's never been a better time for competitors to step in with quality product and claim bigger pieces of the market share pie!
And vice versa. Given how regularly Mantic buggers things up, GW should be starving Mantic to death with a better, cheaper product. Especially since Mantic has been kind enough to telegraph their releases months in advance. Mantic's plastic undead are good, but everything else is either awful plastic with no options or expensive, difficult restic with no options.
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"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:29:48
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Zweischneid wrote:
What about them? 35 quid for 10 miniatures is 3.5 per Mini. 50 pence more expensive than Mantic's dwarfs quoted above, though unlike the latter, GW's come with an abundance of options (multiple banners, music instruments, 16 different head options, etc. etc.. compared to the mono-pose Mantic ones).
GW more expensive with many options. Mantic "slipstreaming" slightly behind the GW price with simpler miniatures.
My point all along, no?
Slip of the finger, posted early. Go back and reread.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:34:50
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Zealous Sin-Eater
Chico, CA
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Zweischneid wrote: azreal13 wrote:No, the argument is Mantic pricing isn't keen, that's the argument you put forward and have singularly failed to support other than with some disingenuous cherry picking and a healthy dose of attempted tangentery.
You keep throwing around that "cherry-picking" argument, but it doesn't.
I picked a basic box from their currently most popular game, DreadBall (putting Deadzone into the "not-yet-released" part) and it is fething expensive as miniatures go (if you consider GW expensive that is, neither are up there in the DZC, Malifaux, KD spheres yet, admittedly).
You asked me to take a look at KoW (which I admittedly don't know anything about), and it's just as expensive - in the GW price-range or slightly below - with the exception of some very few of loss-leading army-deals/starter-bundles.
The only way I could cherry pick this is if I were to point to those starter-boxes that break their normal prices.
Wait, you really can't tell why Dreadball/Bloodbowl/Elfball, are not the same as 40K/WFB/ KoW/Warpath/Dust. Wow just wow.
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Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:35:43
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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I suspect he can, but that's not why he's posting.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:35:51
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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azreal13 wrote:
Also, disregarding the starter boxes is disingenuous, again. Mantic offer them, GW do not (at least not at the same level.) you cannot simply hand wave them away and claim "they don't count because reasons" and expect anyone to treat your argument as having any degree of integrity.
I don't. If you want to compare starter-set with starter-set, do so. Would be interesting.
But to simply pick specifically the Mantic starter sets and use these prices as a basis to argue that Mantic - as a company in general - is offering "keen" prices is both "disingenuous" and "cherry picking".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:37:33
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
We'll find out soon enough eh.
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Zweischneid wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yodhrin wrote: Zweischneid wrote:
And pricier miniatures is ok if you need less of them? How about I invent a game that only needs 1 miniature to play, would it be ok if I charge 50 quid for each of them? Would you pay your GW twice what they ask for, if you buy minis "only for Kill Team"?
If those miniatures were good quality, and Kill Team was a distinct, Necromunda/Mordheim-esque game system? Yes. I've bought boutique resin miniatures to use in Mordheim or INQ28 warbands that cost the same or more than GW miniatures. Again though, you're comparing apples to zepplins; Kill Team is NOT a standalone small model-count game, you need the main 40K rules and the codex for any army you want to use, and the hardback rulebook alone costs the same or more than I paid for any of GW's old SG starter boxes that included everything you needed to play the game including full-size rulebooks, two factions of models, dice, whippy-sticks etc etc.
So what if I just buy stuff for painting? What if I buy a Box of Dark Eldar Wyches to convert to DreadBall? What if I buy Mantic's more expensive Deadzone stuff to play huge 40K Apoc games? How do you "price" miniatures that don't even have a game to go with (Kingdom Death Pin-Ups, say, or some of GW's Games Day figures?)
There is no uniform benchmark to put a "game-relative" price on a miniature. A miniature is expensive or it isn't compared to similar miniatures from other manufacturers. Hitching the argument to the game is just opening up all sorts of personal biases.
Again, apples to zepplins; single miniatures might be more or less expensive compared to other single miniatures, but that has no bearing at all on whether it's more expensive to play Warhammer Fantasy than Warpath or Warmahordes or Warthrone or Wargasm(seriously mini-makers, enough with the "War[thing]" naming convention). Are you actually physically capable of making a post on the internet without continually shifting the goalposts around every time?
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I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:42:38
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Zweischneid wrote: azreal13 wrote:
Also, disregarding the starter boxes is disingenuous, again. Mantic offer them, GW do not (at least not at the same level.) you cannot simply hand wave them away and claim "they don't count because reasons" and expect anyone to treat your argument as having any degree of integrity.
I don't. If you want to compare starter-set with starter-set, do so. Would be interesting.
But to simply pick specifically the Mantic starter sets and use these prices as a basis to argue that Mantic - as a company in general - is offering "keen" prices is both "disingenuous" and "cherry picking".
Well, at least that's a better analogy.
Still more ~20% more expensive for ~20% fewer models, half of which, if any, are no good to anyone who doesn't want to collect Rats or HE, but that isn't a price issue.
So
GW= 1.13 per model
Mantic 0.58 per model.
Still makes a bit of a solid case for Mantic on price alone, especially if one does consider that all the models in the Mantic boxes will be relevant to the army you're starting, but at least you're arguing the original point you made now.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/25 19:44:01
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:44:16
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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Yodhrin wrote:
Again, apples to zepplins; single miniatures might be more or less expensive compared to other single miniatures, but that has no bearing at all on whether it's more expensive to play Warhammer Fantasy than Warpath or Warmahordes or Warthrone or Wargasm(seriously mini-makers, enough with the "War[thing]" naming convention). Are you actually physically capable of making a post on the internet without continually shifting the goalposts around every time?
I am fine with either benchmark really.
Are we comparing the price of "Miniature vs. Miniature"? Mantic is slightly cheaper than GW, though also inferior in production and actually pretty expensive compared to many other "non- GW" producers.
Are we comparing the price of "Game vs. Game"? Mantic (like all miniatures games) is hideously expensive compared to most other games out there, starting all the way down with free rock-paper-scissor and coin-tossing over the world of board games to whathaveyou.
Either way, I see no "keen" pricing anywhere, except in Mantic's prices relative to GW's prices as a company specifically targeting (ex-) GW customers with a " GW-price-level-sensitivity".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/25 19:45:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:46:00
Subject: Re:GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
Wales: Where the Men are Men and the sheep are Scared.
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Zweischneid wrote: azreal13 wrote:
Of course it makes sense, a lower volume of sales means a higher margin is required, hence why a plastic Space Marine character costs over half what a squad of ten.
Frankly, if your game was good enough, and I genuinely needed only to buy one mini at £50 to start playing, I'd consider it.
But volumes of sales for DreadBall are ~3-times higher than Kings of War (guestimate from the two Kickstarter's popularity).
Shouldn't DreadBall minis thus be a lot cheaper than KoW by your logic?
Lets actually compare comparable products instead of being completely disingenuous shall we.
Comparisons here are on price not quality but the minitures are comparable in terms of type and for the most part material.
GW High Elf Spearmen 16 for £20
Mantic Elf Spearment 20 for £11.24
Archers for both are the same price
Dragons
GW Elf on Dragon £32.50
Mantic Elf on Dragon £19.99
Dwarfs
Dwarf Warriors 16 for £20
Mantic Dwarf IronClad or Shieldbreakers 20 £14.99
Undead
Gw zombies 20 for £20.50
Mantic zombies 30 for £19.99
Undead Army deals.
Restless Dead set 47 miniatures (I think, please correct me if wrong) 15 of those are cavlary 1 is a character for £75
Mantic Undead Army 110 miniatures all infantry £50
Sorry mate Mantic wins on cheaper.
certainly not comparable price.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/25 19:49:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:47:26
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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azreal13 wrote:
Well, at least that's a better analogy.
Still more ~20% more expensive for ~20% fewer models, half of which, if any, are no good to anyone who doesn't want to collect Rats or HE, but that isn't a price issue.
So
GW= 1.13 per model
Mantic 0.58 per model.
Still makes a bit of a solid case for Mantic on price alone, especially if one does consider that all the models in the Mantic boxes will be relevant to the army you're starting, but at least you're arguing the original point you made now.
But I get two player started with the WFB one, while I would need two Mantic boxes to get a game of two different armies going. So the "buy-into-the-game-price" for new players is 1 GW box vs. 2 Mantic boxes following "what you need to get started logic" above.
And again, yes, Mantic is cheaper than GW on average. But cheaper does not make "keen". Mercedes is cheaper than Rolls Royce, but that doesn't mean they are "keenly" priced.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I never doubted that Mantic was cheaper than GW.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/25 19:48:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:48:35
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Ok, so now we've established what practically everyone knew already (you get more Mantic minis per £ spent than the equivalent ranges from GW, by and large) is it time to steer this thread back towards the distant, exotic lands of the original topic?
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:52:09
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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[DCM]
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That's probably a really good idea - onward and upward everyone!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:53:17
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Zweischneid wrote: azreal13 wrote:
Well, at least that's a better analogy.
Still more ~20% more expensive for ~20% fewer models, half of which, if any, are no good to anyone who doesn't want to collect Rats or HE, but that isn't a price issue.
So
GW= 1.13 per model
Mantic 0.58 per model.
Still makes a bit of a solid case for Mantic on price alone, especially if one does consider that all the models in the Mantic boxes will be relevant to the army you're starting, but at least you're arguing the original point you made now.
But I get two player started with the WFB one, while I would need two Mantic boxes to get a game of two different armies going. So the "buy-into-the-game-price" for new players is 1 GW box vs. 2 Mantic boxes following "what you need to get started logic" above.
And again, yes, Mantic is cheaper than GW on average. But cheaper does not make "keen". Mercedes is cheaper than Rolls Royce, but that doesn't mean they are "keenly" priced.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I never doubted that Mantic was cheaper than GW.
I'm sorry, but just prior to returning to topic, I just have to point out that is one of the most blatant attempts to wriggle out of a losing position I've seen, and I've seen a lot of Zwei's posts! You're now going to try and argue what constitutes "keen" relative to cheap just to avoid conceding a point?
Do us all a favour and log off and do something else for a bit, you're stinking up the forum with this gak.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:54:01
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Longtime Dakkanaut
West Midlands (UK)
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azreal13 wrote:
I'm sorry, but just prior to returning to topic, I just have to point out that is one of the most blatant attempts to wriggle out of a losing position I've seen, and I've seen a lot of Zwei's posts! You're now going to try and argue what constitutes "keen" relative to cheap just to avoid conceding a point?
Do us all a favour and log off and do something else for a bit, you're stinking up the forum with this gak.
azreal13 wrote:Ok, so now we've established what practically everyone knew already (you get more Mantic minis per £ spent than the equivalent ranges from GW, by and large) is it time to steer this thread back towards the distant, exotic lands of the original topic?
No.
Shifting Goalposts and all that.
You said Mantic was keenly priced. I disputed that and still do.
Mantic makes very expensive miniatures (Dreadball, Dwarfs, Spearman). They are an expensive miniatures company.
Their - admittedly brilliant - trick is, that they stay just shy of GW prices and feel relatively cheaper. But they aren't "keen": They are no Warlord Games or Perry Miniatures or CMON.
Mantic makes expensive miniatures. Just not quite as expensive as GW (much less Wyrd-Games, Kingdom Death, Hawk Wargames, etc..).
Show me where I ever said anything different?
Hell, just a page back I said so
Zweischneid wrote:
They shadow GW to be just under them and relatively cheaper, but a company that charges you 15 GBP / 25 USD for a box of 8 no-options, restic, several-repeat sculpts DreadBall miniatures isn't doing any "lean". pricing.
I agree on the customer experience though.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/25 19:59:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:56:14
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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I'm not dragging this any further off track, let's let others read what we've written and make their own minds up huh?
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 19:56:35
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
Wales: Where the Men are Men and the sheep are Scared.
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Interacting with customers and not treating them with distain will go a long way towards helping GW's image. Sticking the Lawyers on anyone who talks about your product refusing to show upcoming releases outside of their magazine/catalog (White dwarf) and generally not interacting with the community cannot be helping them one bit.
Not to mention shrinking stores reducing places to play.
Treating FLGS as if they are people who sell your products instead of thieves would also help.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/25 19:57:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 21:06:03
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Thermo-Optical Spekter
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I really hate it when people start comparing prices of models.
In a wargame the company offers you a system, that is the models quality, the rules quality, how much you need to spend to play the offered game and the "after sales support" were community interaction, effectiveness of patching problems and other relevant company interactions fall into.
If I am to compare between systems I will do so as a complete system and their offerings, GW offers lets take for example 40k, a bad system that lacks direction clarity and balance, is expensive to play a basic force and its support is almost non existent.
All competitors of GW offer a better and cheaper system as a whole and this is one of the primary reasons they grow, GW has rested on their laurels and dissolution's of grandeur for way too long.
The situation is far from unsalvagable, but my faith in the management been competent enough to do it is minimal, their previous achievements lead to this and there is no reason to expect something better from them.
The epoch of them been the sole choice are way gone and never coming back, their stores chain is dragging them down and yet they stubbornly stick to them, because they do not want to accept there is competition out there and they need to do something about it.
For the record I do not view any of the major GW competition as "second grade product" nor I feel if the recession ever ends people will bounce back to GW because "they are the best out there" they are far from it and the immigration to other pastures has started way before recession the only thing recession can do at the moment is accelerate the move, but those moving are not people that are guaranteed to come back if the competitors systems have a healthy community.
In my opinion this is the prime reason why GW has such a big market share and why their competitors were slow in the past to accumulate their market share.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 21:43:20
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran
UK - Warwickshire
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Wow  mentioning Mantic sure opened up a can of worms!
For the record Zweischneid, I'l grant you that you said you knew nothing about KoW, but you 'random' samling was incredibly cherry picked to be the the top end of Mantics price range vs the bottom of GW's
and the single player starter set vs 2 player starter set was also BS, you didnt even look at the page with their starter sets on did you? theres a single player for all the races AND a 2 player one with smaller sets of two races for two players.... Fact is Mantic are offering all the kinds of sets, multi buy deals and free rules/updates for their own systems that most people would wish GW would do for theirs.
Aswell as supporting the smaller 'specialist games'.. something that GW used to do well and we all wish they still would.
My original point was that Mantic are offering the hobby experience at a reduced cost to the consumer than GW are right now.
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'Ain't nothing crazy about me but my brain. Right brain? Riight! No not you right brain! Right left brain? Right!... Okay then lets do this!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 21:49:46
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
We'll find out soon enough eh.
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Zweischneid wrote: Yodhrin wrote:
Again, apples to zepplins; single miniatures might be more or less expensive compared to other single miniatures, but that has no bearing at all on whether it's more expensive to play Warhammer Fantasy than Warpath or Warmahordes or Warthrone or Wargasm(seriously mini-makers, enough with the "War[thing]" naming convention). Are you actually physically capable of making a post on the internet without continually shifting the goalposts around every time?
I am fine with either benchmark really.
Are we comparing the price of "Miniature vs. Miniature"? Mantic is slightly cheaper than GW, though also inferior in production and actually pretty expensive compared to many other "non-GW" producers.
Are we comparing the price of "Game vs. Game"? Mantic (like all miniatures games) is hideously expensive compared to most other games out there, starting all the way down with free rock-paper-scissor and coin-tossing over the world of board games to whathaveyou.
Either way, I see no "keen" pricing anywhere, except in Mantic's prices relative to GW's prices as a company specifically targeting (ex-) GW customers with a "GW-price-level-sensitivity".
And there they go again, Zweischneid's Famous Fantabulous Flying Goalposts! Marvel at their speed, wonder at their agility! So now we're comparing miniature games to rock>paper>scissors?  At least you're always good for a laugh.
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I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 21:58:06
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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azreal13 wrote: Zweischneid wrote:weeble1000 wrote:
But in reality Mantic is selling a customer experience that GW has utterly failed to deliver. Mantic has a trim, fast playing, tournament friendly rule set and well supported 'specialist' games. Mantic is even putting out e rule books that work on any platform, can be run locally or streamed, include robust game tracking functionality, AND a lean price point. .
There is nothing lean about Mantic's prices.
32 Page Mini Kings of War Core Rulebook
40 Plastic Dwarf Ironclad
Hand Weapons and Shield
Champion, Standard Bearer and Musician
30 Plastic Dwarf Ironwatch
Rifles or Crossbows
15 Plastic Dwarf Shieldbreakers
Two-handed hammers
2 Dwarf Ironbelchers with crew
Ironbelcher Cannon or Ironbelcher Organ Guns
Loads of Mantic Points
20mm Square Bases
50 quid. 50.
Includes a rulebook.
Say what you like about the quality, but if you're going to try and argue on price, you'd better have more than blatant cherry picking to back it up.
I gotta say, when the basic GW rulebook costs £45 without any codex, models, or supplements that actually now are required for play, it makes you think.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 22:01:09
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Dakka Veteran
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PsychoticStorm wrote:I really hate it when people start comparing prices of models.
In a wargame the company offers you a system, that is the models quality, the rules quality, how much you need to spend to play the offered game and the "after sales support" were community interaction, effectiveness of patching problems and other relevant company interactions fall into.
Actually, by its own admition, GW is a Miniatures company (or so they would have you consider them), which offers you a game system only as a vehicle to sell you their miniatures, thus system and miniatures should not be considered one thing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 22:11:13
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Zealous Sin-Eater
Chico, CA
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xxvaderxx wrote: PsychoticStorm wrote:I really hate it when people start comparing prices of models.
In a wargame the company offers you a system, that is the models quality, the rules quality, how much you need to spend to play the offered game and the "after sales support" were community interaction, effectiveness of patching problems and other relevant company interactions fall into.
Actually, by its own admition, GW is a Miniatures company (or so they would have you consider them), which offers you a game system only as a vehicle to sell you their miniatures, thus system and miniatures should not be considered one thing.
Nice quote cutting there. But if you read his whole post, you would know that is not what he talking about. But, then we all know how you feel so I'm sure no one surprised you try using what was said out of context. Have a Sheep  .
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Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 22:12:56
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Wraith
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Kilkrazy wrote:
I gotta say, when the basic GW rulebook costs £45 without any codex, models, or supplements that actually now are required for play, it makes you think.
This is one of the huge obstacles, IMO; every time I contemplate getting back into 40K or WHFB again, I remember I'll need to spend close to $125 just for the rules, never mind the models, and that really takes the wind out of my sails, especially when I consider that there's several other games I'm looking at with a much, much cheaper buy-in with rules and miniatures I like much more than 40K or WHFB.
But opinions, and all that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 22:16:56
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Thermo-Optical Spekter
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Noir wrote:xxvaderxx wrote: PsychoticStorm wrote:I really hate it when people start comparing prices of models.
In a wargame the company offers you a system, that is the models quality, the rules quality, how much you need to spend to play the offered game and the "after sales support" were community interaction, effectiveness of patching problems and other relevant company interactions fall into.
Actually, by its own admition, GW is a Miniatures company (or so they would have you consider them), which offers you a game system only as a vehicle to sell you their miniatures, thus system and miniatures should not be considered one thing.
Nice quote cutting there. But if you read his whole post, you would know that is not what he talking about. But, then we all know how you feel so I'm sure no one surprised you try using what was said out of context. Have a Sheep  .
Even then, I can admit I am the god of the universe, this does not make me the god of the universe, GW is a wargames company no mater what excuses they may give for their bad rules.
Edit
I will have to state again that the system is Everything, its not the rules, its the complete package, rules, miniatures, company support.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/25 22:24:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 22:21:49
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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If the customers demand good rules, and the company does not provide good rules, the customers will go and become customers of a different company.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 22:30:01
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Dakka Veteran
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PsychoticStorm wrote:Noir wrote:xxvaderxx wrote: PsychoticStorm wrote:I really hate it when people start comparing prices of models.
In a wargame the company offers you a system, that is the models quality, the rules quality, how much you need to spend to play the offered game and the "after sales support" were community interaction, effectiveness of patching problems and other relevant company interactions fall into.
Actually, by its own admition, GW is a Miniatures company (or so they would have you consider them), which offers you a game system only as a vehicle to sell you their miniatures, thus system and miniatures should not be considered one thing.
Nice quote cutting there. But if you read his whole post, you would know that is not what he talking about. But, then we all know how you feel so I'm sure no one surprised you try using what was said out of context. Have a Sheep  .
I will have to state again that the system is Everything, its not the rules, its the complete package, rules, miniatures, company support.
An opinion that i am quite certain only a minority holds, thus the very many alternative armies and models you see around in the players armies. To put it bluntly i know virtually of no people that buys "systems", but i know quite many that buy "games" and "miniatures". So does GW i would venture, thus they have the most popular game along with ever decreasing sales numbers.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/25 22:33:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 22:39:55
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Thermo-Optical Spekter
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I disagree, the variety of armies models has nothing to do with a miniatures company, if nothing else the cohesion and steadfast refuse to produce anything not tied in their lore clearly places them firmly in the wargame manufacturer category.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/25 22:47:26
Subject: GW half-year financials published - Reboot thread -
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Dakka Veteran
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PsychoticStorm wrote:I disagree, the variety of armies models has nothing to do with a miniatures company, if nothing else the cohesion and steadfast refuse to produce anything not tied in their lore clearly places them firmly in the wargame manufacturer category. I understand where you come from, what i am trying to put in perspective is that no matter what they want to call them selves and what they produce, it is the very nature of this hobby (modelmaking and wargaming) that people do not buy their product as a whole. They might put it out there as a "packaged system", but people do not see it as that any more than GW considers them selves a games manufacturer. We pick what you like and or consider affordable, the rest you pick it from other sources (which now more than ever before are very abundant out there), it is in my opinion the failure to acknowledge this fact, that has gotten GW in this position. Like the rules and VC as a fantasy army, but its too expensive, thats cool, ill play the game using models from mantic that are more affordable (just to name 1). I am still playing WHF and VC, i am simply not buying into " GW´s system". This can be seen across the board with their entire line, so cost, is very much so a factor. I would wager it weights much more, than buying " GW system" for the average wargamer.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/25 22:49:05
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