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 frozenwastes wrote:
When people want value for their money and see another product as a better choice in that area, that does not necessarily mean that the reason they are switching is a decline in income. There's simply no way that all other miniature companies are "inferior goods" and GW's are the "normal goods."

My opinion is that GW's price increases are simply causing people to take a really hard look at the actual product and what they get for their money. There's not necessarily a shift away from normal economic goods to inferior economic goods, but a shift away from one provider who's pricing their product high enough to create demand destruction.

This is true for me. I personally can afford to buy 40k models, however I just don't see the value anymore. When I look at the prices if the new Tyranids I feel dirty. But I'm quite happy handing over what Corvus Belli is charging even for TAGs. I'm considering buying a couple on Malifaux crews even though no friends play it - but I'm willing to make the gamble that they will like it, which is why I want 2 crews. I have no issue with what Hawk Wargames are asking even for their resin DZC sets.

GW have simply crossed that line where even when I can comfortably afford their stuff, I just feel dirty paying what they're asking.

 frozenwastes wrote:
When people want value for their money and see another product as a better choice in that area, that does not necessarily mean that the reason they are switching is a decline in income. There's simply no way that all other miniature companies are "inferior goods" and GW's are the "normal goods."

My opinion is that GW's price increases are simply causing people to take a really hard look at the actual product and what they get for their money. There's not necessarily a shift away from normal economic goods to inferior economic goods, but a shift away from one provider who's pricing their product high enough to create demand destruction.

This is definitely the case for me. I like the new Dwarfs, but I'm also well aware that I bought 40 Soviet infantry for Bolt Action for £2 less than the cost of 10 Longbeards/Hammerers, and quality aside I find it hard to justify the dwarfs especially when I'd need 3 boxes for the unit and those 40 infantry are almost my entire BA army.

Agree with the posts above. I've spent a few hundred quid on models this last 6 months, but gw has had very little - just enough to finish off a couple of gw armies. The majority of my spending went to infinity, x-wing and dust.

dereksatkinson wrote:

IMO.. You should expect retail to be hit 1st simply because that is the 1st place a weakening consumer shows up. That is my argument and we are seeing retailers report horrible numbers. Dell (recently went private) and news just came out a couple hours ago that they are laying off 15,000 workers. Those are 15,000 high paying jobs. These kinds of things don't happen when things are going well in the retail sector and it's not isolated.

I realize there are company specific issues that could impact their profitability going forward but i don't think it's as important as the overall economy.

Think of it this way... Someone has a gun pointed right at your head.. Are you really worried about that HIV positive test?

As for all these things people have been saying for years about "what's going to happen to GW", I've heard that for the past 23 years of gaming. The companies that are run like businesses will survive. The ones that don't probably wont.

Firstly, in the UK, retail sales are actually increasing again, with record growth versus the last 9 years - http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/uk-britain-retail-idUKBREA0G0FQ20140117
So a decline in GW's revenues in the UK at least, has nothing to do with consumer confidence.

Dell is also a terrible example, being that whilst they have a retail arm, the bulk of their trade is to businesses, the majority of whom are reducing their upgrade cycles and reluctant to move onto Windows 8, the PC market as a whole is also down since it's become saturated and replaced by tablets. You'd be better off looking for a similar store like a toy store, or even one of the dozens of FLGSs or wargaming companies that appear to be growing.

With all the earlier talk a few pages ago about value vs cost in regard to the rule books and needing to buy lots of expensive squads and vehicles, the Dark Vengeance box set is one of the best introductory sets that GW has ever released - the value is actually impressive. Why they couldn't do something similar with other models/box sets is a mystery to me. Hell, I bought two copies of Dark Vengeance just because the value was there.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
With all the earlier talk a few pages ago about value vs cost in regard to the rule books and needing to buy lots of expensive squads and vehicles, the Dark Vengeance box set is one of the best introductory sets that GW has ever released - the value is actually impressive. Why they couldn't do something similar with other models/box sets is a mystery to me. Hell, I bought two copies of Dark Vengeance just because the value was there.

This is something I really think they should look at. the DV set has additional things but there's no real reason they couldn't make an Army Box that includes a stripped-down rulebook without the fluff and a decent-sized starter army for every faction, so if you don't want the armies in DV you can still get a good deal by buying the appropriate box and having a "ready to play" force.

If they did nice quality rulebooks and codexes, containing the rules and no fluff or modelling stuff, in a smaller size than the standard A4 but larger than the softback, I for one would buy them.

I don't buy the full size rules or codexes any more.

Could some of the increase or level profits in other companies also be as a result of the design/quality?

For example, I am willing to pay (and did) a lot more for this:

http://sigur.tabletopgeeks.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/18/gallery/banebeasts-chimaera/chim9.jpg

than I am even $20 for: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1850322a_99120299022_Chimera01_445x319.jpg

if i could get it for $20

Some people may like the Gw one better ( i personally don't know anyone that does though).

A lot of the kickstarters i've seen and been part of don't really have rule sets but are more to get new ranges of models out there for painters and general gamers and just as pure alternatives, but many are much higher cost.

In general, GW may also be suffering from the higher end (the pure artist side, who from what I've seen, prefer alot of the super detailed resin models coming out of europe than the gamey models GW has).

Pricing themselves out of the low end customers, but not having interesting enough designs for the higher end consumer...

Just a thought.

Sanjay

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
With all the earlier talk a few pages ago about value vs cost in regard to the rule books and needing to buy lots of expensive squads and vehicles, the Dark Vengeance box set is one of the best introductory sets that GW has ever released - the value is actually impressive. Why they couldn't do something similar with other models/box sets is a mystery to me. Hell, I bought two copies of Dark Vengeance just because the value was there.

This is something I really think they should look at. the DV set has additional things but there's no real reason they couldn't make an Army Box that includes a stripped-down rulebook without the fluff and a decent-sized starter army for every faction, so if you don't want the armies in DV you can still get a good deal by buying the appropriate box and having a "ready to play" force.

Don't forget the codex..

Just as an example, for an army I don't play, so apologies if I'm a bit off in selections, but it fits the idea best as a recently updated, mostly plastic faction.

1 x Mini soft cover rulebook (no RRP, let's say £20)
1 x Codex Tau Empire £30
1 x Cadre Fireblade £12
2 x Fire Warriors boxes £44
1 x Crisis battlesuits. £40
1 x Starter paint set £36.50
1 x tape measure £3.10
1 x dice £5
1 x templates £8

Total RRP £198.60
Ex vat ~ £160

I cannot honestly think of anything else you'd need to field a fully painted, legal force and play a game, everything else would be down to the individuals choice (spray undercoat, different paint colours, different units etc)

So, as GW's state their cost of sales runs around 20% of their turnover, this lot will cost them around £35 to produce on average.

Box it together, or even just offer it as a 1-click bundle for somewhere in the £130-£150 bracket, perhaps even cheaper, where's the downside to GW or the consumer? (Dismissing GW's greed for every penny out of every customer in advance as an attitude that may well have got them in their current position in the first place)

If they want people to use their online store they would do well to offer incentives like that.

I think they'd need to go even further than that, but that's a start. Rather than including the dice/templates/paints I'd rather see an actual decent "start a new army" box that includes a legal army instead of the current battleforces.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I think they'd need to go even further than that, but that's a start. Rather than including the dice/templates/paints I'd rather see an actual decent "start a new army" box that includes a legal army instead of the current battleforces.

Once again, we are seeing those.

The Warhost of Naggaroth, the Space Marine Strikeforce, and the Tyranid Swarm are all "legal armies". They have Hero/HQ choices, 2 Troop choices, and some extra trimming.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I think they'd need to go even further than that, but that's a start. Rather than including the dice/templates/paints I'd rather see an actual decent "start a new army" box that includes a legal army instead of the current battleforces.

Agreed, and it was certainly in my thinking as a way to go, but speaking as someone with over a decade in retail sales management under my belt, one of the fastest ways to lose a customer once you've closed them is to start the "you'll need this, this, this and this" dialogue and be adding extra purchases on to the initial commitment (rather than upselling, which the customer still has a choice over.)

While a rules, codex, models box would be good, I think it is perhaps a better offer to those already playing looking to start a new faction, and while that isn't an income that GW could, should or can afford to neglect, it doesn't, I feel, tackle the barrier to entry that we have currently quite as well as what I suggested. GW need new blood, a greater volume of people buying into the game than they do now, as a priority I think.

 Medium of Death wrote:
If they want people to use their online store they would do well to offer incentives like that.

The only time I have ever bought anything from GW direct was when Apocalypse formations gave a pretty good discount. I think the terminator lord and 3x boxes of terminators was 25% off retail with free shipping.

HairySticks wrote:

Who is actually supposed to have the time AND money to do the GW 'Hobby' - My first thought was 'GW employees' are the ones who have time (at work) and money (from work) to enjoy the hobby... but I know their retail staff arent exactly rolling in the money

Speaking to a former employee of their paint/terrain team in Nottingham during the LoTR boom years, GW employees were allowed to purchase miniatures by weight. They could even have the cost of them deducted from their monthly pay cheque. So your deduction isn't far off the mark.

 Kanluwen wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I think they'd need to go even further than that, but that's a start. Rather than including the dice/templates/paints I'd rather see an actual decent "start a new army" box that includes a legal army instead of the current battleforces.

Once again, we are seeing those.

The Warhost of Naggaroth, the Space Marine Strikeforce, and the Tyranid Swarm are all "legal armies". They have Hero/HQ choices, 2 Troop choices, and some extra trimming.

True, but you can't play with them. If you want to play with them, you need to pay another $123:

Rulebook: $74.25
Codex: $49.50
Tyranid Swarm: $170. (mind you, they have no Synapse creatures in the box).

Startup cost for Tyranids with a gak army: $293.75. Startup cost. Add another $50 or so if you want a synapse creature so you can actually have a decent game.

And that's not including dice, templates, etc.

Edit:

Unless Carnifexes are Synapse now?

 puma713 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I think they'd need to go even further than that, but that's a start. Rather than including the dice/templates/paints I'd rather see an actual decent "start a new army" box that includes a legal army instead of the current battleforces.

Once again, we are seeing those.

The Warhost of Naggaroth, the Space Marine Strikeforce, and the Tyranid Swarm are all "legal armies". They have Hero/HQ choices, 2 Troop choices, and some extra trimming.

True, but you can't play with them. If you want to play with them, you need to pay another $123:

Rulebook: $74.25
Codex: $49.50
Tyranid Swarm: $170. (mind you, they have no Synapse creatures in the box).

Startup cost for Tyranids with a gak army: $293.75. Startup cost. Add another $50 or so if you want a synapse creature so you can actually have a decent game.

And that's not including dice, templates, etc.

Right. Although the SM Strikeforce (the only one I have experience with) is at least a somewhat good deal although IMO about $50 too high. It would have been nicer if it had the codex for free, and if the rules were available in the DV small rulebook for like $20 from venues outside of eBay. It's not an amazingly uber army but it has a good mix of units and provides a solid core (although personally I'd have replaced the Drop Pod with say a Predator, and the Command Squad with maybe Terminators).

Actually, that Warhost of Naggaroth looks pretty much perfect for how they should do things (although still throw in the army book/codex). It's reasonably cheap ($170USD) and gives you a solid core army to start with that you can build up from; other than the additional $120 for the rulebooks, that looks like an ideal starting point for a new player choosing Dark Elves or a veteran who wants to start a new army. I'm not sure how good any of those units are as I haven't played Dark Elves since 5th edition, but yes if they gave something like that for every army in the game it'd be a pretty good starting point.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If they did nice quality rulebooks and codexes, containing the rules and no fluff or modelling stuff, in a smaller size than the standard A4 but larger than the softback, I for one would buy them.

I don't buy the full size rules or codexes any more.

You must be the only one happy with the first 3rd edition Codices

GW def needs to adapt or die. My local 40k community discovered yoymart a few months back - and now everyone is fielding FW knock offs, and even GW kits at ~60% off. In my opinion GW's circle the wagons strategy is the exact opposite of what they should be doing.

Its too easy to avoid their gouging prices while still playing the game. and it gets easier every day.

People are on to GW. not including weapon choices in kits in an attempt to force us into buying more kits... odd number troops in kits to force us to buy additional kits... balancing the game to drive sales (poorly selling Tau suddenly the most powerful army).. etc.... etc.... ad nauseum.

There are too many choices for players out there. GW needs us more than we need them. I really hope they wake up and right the ship before major damage is done. Its uncanny how out of touch they are with the reality of the industry/hobby/fanbase/market.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If they did nice quality rulebooks and codexes, containing the rules and no fluff or modelling stuff, in a smaller size than the standard A4 but larger than the softback, I for one would buy them.

I don't buy the full size rules or codexes any more.

You must be the only one happy with the first 3rd edition Codices

I thought the 3rd edition codexes were great as far as value (content is another matter *cough* Chaos *cough*) but that's how it should have been kept. They were what, like $15 for a small softcover that had enough information on the army, still had some painting/showcase and the rules.

sand.zzz wrote:
GW def needs to adapt or die. My local 40k community discovered yoymart a few months back - and now everyone is fielding FW knock offs, and even GW kits at ~60% off. In my opinion GW's circle the wagons strategy is the exact opposite of what they should be doing.

Its too easy to avoid their gouging prices while still playing the game. and it gets easier every day.

People are on to GW. not including weapon choices in kits in an attempt to force us into buying more kits... odd number troops in kits to force us to buy additional kits... balancing the game to drive sales (poorly selling Tau suddenly the most powerful army).. etc.... etc.... ad nauseum.

There are too many choices for players out there. GW needs us more than we need them. I really hope they wake up and right the ship before major damage is done. Its uncanny how out of touch they are with the reality of the industry/hobby/fanbase/market.

Looks like that Yoymart is unlicensed recasts. I'd be careful with that if I were you...

 Bull0 wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:
GW def needs to adapt or die. My local 40k community discovered yoymart a few months back - and now everyone is fielding FW knock offs, and even GW kits at ~60% off. In my opinion GW's circle the wagons strategy is the exact opposite of what they should be doing.

Its too easy to avoid their gouging prices while still playing the game. and it gets easier every day.

People are on to GW. not including weapon choices in kits in an attempt to force us into buying more kits... odd number troops in kits to force us to buy additional kits... balancing the game to drive sales (poorly selling Tau suddenly the most powerful army).. etc.... etc.... ad nauseum.

There are too many choices for players out there. GW needs us more than we need them. I really hope they wake up and right the ship before major damage is done. Its uncanny how out of touch they are with the reality of the industry/hobby/fanbase/market.

Looks like that Yoymart is unlicensed recasts. I'd be careful with that if I were you...

Why? Are they explosive?

-Loki- wrote:GW have simply crossed that line where even when I can comfortably afford their stuff, I just feel dirty paying what they're asking.

Their new shift of price increases onto new releases rather than doing yearly price adjustments was an interesting choice. On the one hand, those collecting an existing army won't get hit by sticker shock when they come back to do a purchase a few times a year. But on the other, it sends a pretty clear signal to existing customers that if they want to get in on the latest flavour of the month release, they are going to pay. A lot. And with an increased cycle of releases, more armies will get revisited more quickly and the average price will continue to climb for everyone.

Herzlos wrote:This is definitely the case for me. I like the new Dwarfs, but I'm also well aware that I bought 40 Soviet infantry for Bolt Action for £2 less than the cost of 10 Longbeards/Hammerers, and quality aside I find it hard to justify the dwarfs especially when I'd need 3 boxes for the unit and those 40 infantry are almost my entire BA army.

I was actually just looking at the Bolt Action plastic American half tracks with infantry. 30 infantry, 3 plastic transport vehicles, £60. You bring up an interesting point about the army size as well. Longbeards/Hammerers can be pretty expensive points-wise, but 10 of them is never going to be much more than a fraction of a full sized WFB army and not even a full unit itself. GW's rules devalue their own products by making them a small portion of a full army and by driving down their relative gaming utility. Other companies have been piling into the lower model count game business while GW abandons it.

Eggs wrote:Agree with the posts above. I've spent a few hundred quid on models this last 6 months, but gw has had very little - just enough to finish off a couple of gw armies. The majority of my spending went to infinity, x-wing and dust.

I'm actually a proponent of GW continuing to raise the prices. I want more competition in the market and I think GW pricing out existing customers helps create more opportunities for more new miniature makers. I also think a slow decline by GW is far, far better for the industry than some sort of implosion or catastrophic failure. And that's what they are doing. They're protecting their margins with high prices on new releases, they're cutting costs and taking even more direct control of the distribution of their product.

Basically, I like that GW is continuing to help create more people like Eggs that support and play other games. Variety is the spice of life and if GW has to give up its market share and slowly decline into irrelevancy for us to have a vibrant marketplace not dominated by one company, I'm all for it. Locally the new Dwarfs and Dark Elf Witches are $7 a miniature and most 40k 5 man elite boxes are $8 a miniature. For a negligible part of a much, much larger army. It's the perfect recipe to make people be willing to pay $10-15 a miniature for metal miniatures in a game like Infinity that can generally work well with 10 miniatures or less in a full sized game. Or $15-20 per ship for X-Wing in a game where you need 6 or so ships.

 Bull0 wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:
GW def needs to adapt or die. My local 40k community discovered yoymart a few months back - and now everyone is fielding FW knock offs, and even GW kits at ~60% off. In my opinion GW's circle the wagons strategy is the exact opposite of what they should be doing.

Its too easy to avoid their gouging prices while still playing the game. and it gets easier every day.

People are on to GW. not including weapon choices in kits in an attempt to force us into buying more kits... odd number troops in kits to force us to buy additional kits... balancing the game to drive sales (poorly selling Tau suddenly the most powerful army).. etc.... etc.... ad nauseum.

There are too many choices for players out there. GW needs us more than we need them. I really hope they wake up and right the ship before major damage is done. Its uncanny how out of touch they are with the reality of the industry/hobby/fanbase/market.

Looks like that Yoymart is unlicensed recasts. I'd be careful with that if I were you...

In the context of weekly casual play at my FLGS - it doesn't matter. Which is what 99.9% of all 40k matches are. GW can hang on to that .01% for their official models only. That deathgrip isn't helping business, btw. Everyone but GW already realizes this.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If they did nice quality rulebooks and codexes, containing the rules and no fluff or modelling stuff, in a smaller size than the standard A4 but larger than the softback, I for one would buy them.

I don't buy the full size rules or codexes any more.

You must be the only one happy with the first 3rd edition Codices

They were A4.

 azreal13 wrote:


Why? Are they explosive?

no.. but there is danger of people realising that the Chinese can out cast, out price, and choose better materials than GW can (particularly with finecast resin models - the counterfeits are preferable 100% of the time).

Please refrain from mentioning recasting sites by name or recommending that people consider breaking the law and purchasing items that have been illegally recast without the copyright holder's consent.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
With all the earlier talk a few pages ago about value vs cost in regard to the rule books and needing to buy lots of expensive squads and vehicles, the Dark Vengeance box set is one of the best introductory sets that GW has ever released - the value is actually impressive. Why they couldn't do something similar with other models/box sets is a mystery to me. Hell, I bought two copies of Dark Vengeance just because the value was there.

Is DV great value in itself, or is it only great value when compared to the overblow retail price of the stuff it normally contains?

I mean, take for example the Bolt Action starter set "Assault on Normandy".

For about the same price (£60 Vs £61.50), you get 40 plastic infantry (20 US, 20 German), a full rule book (£25 RRP) and some scenery (a ruined plastic farmhouse). Essentially everything you need to play pretty balanced games, and the core of what you need going forward. The book contains full army lists (IIRC), but (optional) additional books are £15 each.

Dark Vengeance gets you 48 plastic figures (ok 3 are bikes, 5 terminators, 6 chosen and a Hellbrute, but the material cost difference is negligable), but you only get a mini rulebook, no scenery and 2 pretty unbalanced armies. If you want to expand on that going forward, you then need compulsory army books at £30 each.

HairySticks wrote:

no.. but there is danger of people realising that the Chinese can out cast, out price, and choose better materials than GW can (particularly with finecast resin models - the counterfeits are preferable 100% of the time).

Of course when you don't pay from the design and sculpting it's easy to sell for much lower price.
Talking about alternative miniaturemakers is all fine and well, but attitude of some people that Chinese recasters are some sort of heroes fighting GW's extraorbitant pricing is rather puzzling.

Folks, Robin Hood was a cutthroat bandit. He handed out the money to poor people only if you consider tavern keepers and prostitutes amongst the 'poor'.

Backfire wrote:

HairySticks wrote:

no.. but there is danger of people realising that the Chinese can out cast, out price, and choose better materials than GW can (particularly with finecast resin models - the counterfeits are preferable 100% of the time).

Of course when you don't pay from the design and sculpting it's easy to sell for much lower price.
Talking about alternative miniaturemakers is all fine and well, but attitude of some people that Chinese recasters are some sort of heroes fighting GW's extraorbitant pricing is rather puzzling.

Folks, Robin Hood was a cutthroat bandit. He handed out the money to poor people only if you consider tavern keepers and prostitutes amongst the 'poor'.

Think you misunderstood; GW chose to slash the cost of materials by going finecast, then instead of passing the saving onto us, they infact gouged us yet again, for frankly piss poor product quality.
GW are at the height of the industry (supposedly) and yet are genuinely being outdone on quality by these Chinese recasters. That in itself speaks volumes. GW technically lost out nothing; I was never going to buy the finecast of anything they produce...so to buy a recast isnt actually loosing money for GW.. if there was no recast in a better resin then I'd not have the figure.

Theyre not heroes, just taking advantage of a gap in the market. The Chinese copies of plastic kits in resin tend to not be priced low enough and the GW ones are still preferable. It wouldnt actually take much for GW to put themselves at the top again. They made it too easy by being too gougey.

FYI Robin Hood is fictional And GW are not the rich people in this world, and their customers are not the poor people in the world either. ( interesting choice of analogy though, Robin Hood legend based in Nottingham just like GW is lol.)