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My Nobz love their 4+ save in CC. It helps them survive and kill more squishies. xD

That being said a 4+ save is an awesome advantage in CC and have saved my Orks a bunch of times and sometimes I would even be happy to swap my Daemons 5++ for a 4+. Even against shooting its still good but I kinda have to say I see the flaws (mostly since I love autocannons) but as alot of people have noted its still a good save and I would not call it pointless.

 LordofHats wrote:
Even back in 5th, I honestly never felt much like my marines 3+ was really that much help. Sheer volumn of fire did them in as easily as it did my 4+ and 5+ models.

Toughness is more useful than armor.

*Nurgle player bowing his head*

 PrinceRaven wrote:
As someone who has to deal with 5+ and 6+ save models, no, 4+ armour is fantastic.

I'm in the same boat since I like to play Orks. When you play 6+ saves consistently, anything better looks amazing.

4+ saves aren't all that hard done by - most basic infantry weapons (bolters etc) are AP 5 and things like grav guns, missile blasts, light templates and wave serpent shields hate a 4+ save.

What I'd like to see is a combination of the AP mechanic and save modifier mechanic. Every weapon would have both an AP stat and a save modifier. If the weapon's AP is higher than the target's save, the target gets to make its unmodified save as usual. But if the AP matches or is lower than the target's save, instead of negating the save completely you simply apply the save modifier. This would allow for a lot more diversity in weapon profiles, and if applied correctly would effectively make good armor more useful. Krak missiles with a -3 save modifier would still negate 4+ and worse but would allow Space Marines a small chance of surviving, for example. You could cook up entirely new types of weapon with low AP but small save modifiers. AP 2, -1 Sv weapons could be interesting.

Instead of armour saves on the profile, every model should have an Armor value, ranging from 1-10. Every weapon will have an AP value, ranging from 1-10. In order to determine your armor save, consult a chart . Very much like strength vs. toughness, if your Armor Value equals the AP of the weapon, you get a 4+ save. Terminators for instance can have an armor value of 8, and plasma guns would have an AP of 8, so terminators would get a 4+ save. Meltas could have an AP of 10.

AP is terrible and one thing people seem to be neglecting with all the talk of 2nd Ed is that weapons had another modifier- range. Weapons could get modifiers based on range (for example bolters were +1 at short range). That and you had other hit modifiers that altered a models chance of dying. Yes, your -2 save modifier might make my power armour only 5+, but your plasma gun gets a -1 at long range and I'm in heavy cover so you're at -3 to hit. Fire away. Turns out controlling that stream of plasma gets tricker the further away it gets, which is another way to balance things.

It amuses me that people are happy with a system that will automatically bypass armour- power armour just can't stand up to a lascannon- but are perfectly willing to accept that same, ceramite obliterating weapon might just fail to wound a human 1 in 6 times. Even 'instant death' weapons have a 17% utter fail rate. If there was a place to apply automatic success, it's in wounding.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:


You are not seriously equating Get Back In The Fight with And They Shall Know No Fear, are you?

No, I'm just pointing out that Guard have their own Morale shenanigans too.

That's like saying; "I might have a 3+ armour save, but you have a 5+....and they are both armour saves, so you are fiiiine."

 Lobukia wrote:
4+ is great. Best armor out there if you face grav weapons, bolters, want to keep things alive (50% saves) but don't want to pay for 3+ protection.

If anything, 4+ is the perfect sweet spot for 6th ed.

I question the OP's 40k IQ, seriously, with this thread

And yet 4+sv armies and units aren't exactly overrunning game tables.

In the entirety of 40k, about the only 4+sv units you see with any regularity are Fire Warriors, Dire Avengers, Harpy/Hive Crones, Hive Guard, Necron Warriors, and maybe Swooping Hawks once in a while. Add in DKoK Grenadiers in Assault Brigade lists if you include Forgeworld. Half of those are Troops units, sometimes one of two Troops choices.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
4+ is great. Best armor out there if you face grav weapons, bolters, want to keep things alive (50% saves) but don't want to pay for 3+ protection.

If anything, 4+ is the perfect sweet spot for 6th ed.

I question the OP's 40k IQ, seriously, with this thread

And yet 4+sv armies and units aren't exactly overrunning game tables.

In the entirety of 40k, about the only 4+sv units you see with any regularity are Fire Warriors, Dire Avengers, Harpy/Hive Crones, Hive Guard, Necron Warriors, and maybe Swooping Hawks once in a while. Add in DKoK Grenadiers in Assault Brigade lists if you include Forgeworld. Half of those are Troops units, sometimes one of two Troops choices.

You forgot Scouts as well.

I just think the main problem with the 4+ save is most armies come with enough AP4 to kill most your 4+ save troops in a couple of turns. But it depends on the armies in question of course. Personally I love seeing lots of expensive 4+ save troops lined up against me because of all the AP4 multishot or template weapons I like to take.

That's because armies come packing enough firepower to shoot huge amounts of meqs off the table. That's not the fault of the 4+ save.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:


You are not seriously equating Get Back In The Fight with And They Shall Know No Fear, are you?

No, I'm just pointing out that Guard have their own Morale shenanigans too.

That's like saying; "I might have a 3+ armour save, but you have a 5+....and they are both armour saves, so you are fiiiine."

GBITF can be used for Go to Ground shenanigans, you know.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
4+ is great. Best armor out there if you face grav weapons, bolters, want to keep things alive (50% saves) but don't want to pay for 3+ protection.

If anything, 4+ is the perfect sweet spot for 6th ed.

I question the OP's 40k IQ, seriously, with this thread

And yet 4+sv armies and units aren't exactly overrunning game tables.

In the entirety of 40k, about the only 4+sv units you see with any regularity are Fire Warriors, Dire Avengers, Harpy/Hive Crones, Hive Guard, Necron Warriors, and maybe Swooping Hawks once in a while. Add in DKoK Grenadiers in Assault Brigade lists if you include Forgeworld. Half of those are Troops units, sometimes one of two Troops choices.

You forgot Scouts as well.

You only ever really see Scouts sitting in cover with Camo cloaks (typically sporting a 3+ or 2+ cover save), and usually not more than one unit of them, at least not in my experience.

The 4+ is nice when I lob all kinds of AP 5 ignores cover around, though. I'm a marine player, I don't get AP 2 ignores cover. People get 4+ saves against my lists all the time. But I actually use flamers.