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rigeld2 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
Out of curiosity, a question for the FOC-sticklers:

Would you deny that Troop units created by special rules score? For example, Termagants spawned by a Tervigon or Daemons spawned by a 12 result on the Warp Storm table.

For Tervigons, it's explicit in their rules.

C: T wrote:“A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules.”

I am aware of what the codex says. For completionist's sake, here's the relevant rule from Codex: Daemons:

Codex: Chaos Daemons wrote:New units created by these results do not have any upgrades and, other than their unusual manner of arrival, are treated exactly as other units of their type, awarding victory points as normal.

But do you say they score or not? They're not selected from the FOC, which seems to be the linchpin of your argument, so you would say no?

 Gunzhard wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
No slots sure, just like in the brb. In the brb they are 'Troops selection'... or Fortifications or 'HQ selections'.

Does using the term "slot" instead of "selection" make any difference to the point?
They are refered to as "Slots" in Escalation, so the term is interchangable.
It still remains a Detachment with no defined Slots.

Yeah this is total nonsense, "defined slots" have nothing to do with scoring what so ever, you're just trying to be argumentative.

How am I being argumentative?
You're the one that argued at I used the term "slot" insted of "selection". I simply pointed out that the terms are interchangable. I'm afraid it was your post that was arguing for arguments sake.

From page 34 of Escalation:
"...you can take a Lords of War detachment when choosing your force."
"...uses up a single Lords of War slot on the Force Organisation chart."

So GW use the term "slot" and "Selection" for the same thing.
Trying to dismiss my argument because I used one term instead of another is pointless when the terms are interchangable.
So please stop being argumentative about nothing.

 Redemption wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
Out of curiosity, a question for the FOC-sticklers:

Would you deny that Troop units created by special rules score? For example, Termagants spawned by a Tervigon or Daemons spawned by a 12 result on the Warp Storm table.

For Tervigons, it's explicit in their rules.

C: T wrote:“A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules.”

I am aware of what the codex says. For completionist's sake, here's the relevant rule from Codex: Daemons:

Codex: Chaos Daemons wrote:New units created by these results do not have any upgrades and, other than their unusual manner of arrival, are treated exactly as other units of their type, awarding victory points as normal.

But do you say they score or not? They're not selected from the FOC, which seems to be the linchpin of your argument, so you would say no?

Because they're identical in every way (not some ways, every way) to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, yes they score.
Because, according to the rules, it's exactly like I chose them as part of my army - meaning they would take up an FOC slot if that was relevant during the game.

That really didn't answer his question, if you didn't select them as an FOC choice then by your argument they can not be scoring. Sure they are exactly like another gaunt unit, that doesn't change the fact you never selected them. If a player already has full FOC compliment of troops, he's still welcome to produce more gaunt units without having an illegal list.

I really see both sides to the argument here, one we know these are troops, they were not an FOC choice, but we have perfect examples of other non FOC choices which can show up and can indeed score.

We've had a couple email replies showing RAI would be scoring as well. Interesting arguments these new data slates do bring up, interesting indeed.

Stormbreed wrote:
That really didn't answer his question, if you didn't select them as an FOC choice then by your argument they can not be scoring. Sure they are exactly like another gaunt unit, that doesn't change the fact you never selected them. If a player already has full FOC compliment of troops, he's still welcome to produce more gaunt units without having an illegal list.

No - as far as the rules are concerned it's exactly like I chose them. That's what the rule I quoted says.

As Stormbreed stated, if they would indeed count for FOC selection, you'd have an illegal FOC if you generate too many new troops, which of course would be daft.

And you seem to disregard the Chaos Daemons version, which only states they are treated exactly as other units of their type. Does that meet your 'has to be from the FOC'-requirement to be scoring?

 Redemption wrote:
As Stormbreed stated, if they would indeed count for FOC selection, you'd have an illegal FOC if you generate too many new troops, which of course would be daft.

Which would only matter during list building of course.
If I lose a model from a 10 man minimum unit, do I suddenly have an illegal list?

And you seem to disregard the Chaos Daemons version, which only states they are treated exactly as other units of their type. Does that meet your 'has to be from the FOC'-requirement to be scoring?

Based on that rules quote alone, no the don't seem to be scoring. Note that this opinion is offered without the benefit of actually having the codex right now - I've loaned mine out. I don't usually like to address rules I can't get context on, but I'm sure I'll be vilified if I don't comment on it.

I don't know rigeld2. Units in a formation are also chosen from the codex. I don't see much of a functional difference if any to units that are 'spawned' mid game. I also don't see any evidence that the units spawned mid game are scoring units. We know the the Deamons rule makes it clear these units award victory points as normal, but that does not mean they are scoring. It means in games where killing a unit awards victory points then killing this spawned unit awards victory points as normal. The Tervigon rule does not make that unit scoring either as troop selections being scoring units is not a mission special rule.

Is there an FAQ or errata or anything that tells us spawned troops are also scoring?

 DJGietzen wrote:
I don't know rigeld2. Units in a formation are also chosen from the codex.

No they're not - they're chosen from the dataslate. It's why you can use the StormWing formation with Codex: Space Wolves and not have to buy C: SM.

I don't see much of a functional difference if any to units that are 'spawned' mid game. I also don't see any evidence that the units spawned mid game are scoring units. We know the the Deamons rule makes it clear these units award victory points as normal, but that does not mean they are scoring. It means in games where killing a unit awards victory points then killing this spawned unit awards victory points as normal. The Tervigon rule does not make that unit scoring either as troop selections being scoring units is not a mission special rule.

Then you didn't read the Tervigon rule I pasted above. It explicitly says they're exactly like a unit that was selected. If a selected unit scores then the spawned unit must score, or they aren't exactly alike.

“A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules.”

According to the RAW posters, being identical to the troops section of the army list doesn't mean anything unless you come from a troops FOC slot. Therefore, spawned termagant units do not score. The detachment genestealers are identical to the genestealers in the troops section of the army list (sans the detachment specific rules) but do not take a FOC slot, thus they do not score.

I find this position to be incorrect and a poor interpretation of the rules. If you grant scoring status to spawned troop units, then you must grant it to detachment troop units. Conversely, if you do not grant scoring status to detachment troop units, then spawned troop units also do not score. Everyone universally agrees that spawned troop units score (or at least I haven't seen anyone argue otherwise), and I see no selection/classification difference in the rules between spawned troops and detachment troops, therefore detachment troops also score.

wolvesoffenris wrote:
“A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules.”

According to the RAW posters, being identical to the troops section of the army list doesn't mean anything unless you come from a troops FOC slot. Therefore, spawned termagant units do not score.

Incorrect. They aren't just identical to the troops section of the army list. They're identical in every way to a unit chosen from the Troops section.
Chosen how? Oh, to fill a FOC slot.

The detachment genestealers are identical to the genestealers in the troops section of the army list (sans the detachment specific rules) but do not take a FOC slot, thus they do not score.

Do not take, are never chosen to fill, etc. There's no way to make them "fit" in the FOC.

I find this position to be incorrect and a poor interpretation of the rules. If you grant scoring status to spawned troop units, then you must grant it to detachment troop units. Conversely, if you do not grant scoring status to detachment troop units, then spawned troop units also do not score. Everyone universally agrees that spawned troop units score (or at least I haven't seen anyone argue otherwise), and I see no selection/classification difference in the rules between spawned troops and detachment troops, therefore detachment troops also score.

You've made an error in your interpretation that I pointed out above. This isn't a double standard I'm applying. Also, are you arguing HYWPI or RAW? The bolded implies HYWPI.

BRB
"An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart"

Codex Tyranids
“A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules.”

The Troops section of the army list is not the same as the Troop section of the FOC. Per the Army list section of the codex, an army list (with units broken down by type HQ, Elite, etc) is used in conjunction with a FOC and the corresponding FOC categories allowed in the scenario.

Spawned termagants are identical to termagants chosen from the army list, not the FOC slot, they do not come from a FOC slot and therefore by strict RAW, they do not score.

Chosen can be for a FOC slot, or for a detachment, or like Tyrant Guard can be chosen as an HQ without a FOC slot. You are implying that being chosen from an army list automatically implies FOC which is not a valid assumption.

My previous statement still holds that spawned troops have no FOC slot and technically do not score if you play by the strict RAW you are proposing. However, that is not the consensus of the player community. If you state that spawned troops score, then detachment troops must also score.

wolvesoffenris wrote:
Chosen can be for a FOC slot, or for a detachment, or like Tyrant Guard can be chosen as an HQ without a FOC slot. You are implying that being chosen from an army list automatically implies FOC which is not a valid assumption.

Aside from filling FOC slots, when do you choose units from the Army List? During list building, right?
When is the FOC relevant? There's literally no way to read "choose" other than to satisfy FOC slots except for units that are specifically exempted from filling them. And they wouldn't score.

rigeld2 wrote:

wolvesoffenris wrote:
Chosen can be for a FOC slot, or for a detachment, or like Tyrant Guard can be chosen as an HQ without a FOC slot. You are implying that being chosen from an army list automatically implies FOC which is not a valid assumption.

Aside from filling FOC slots, when do you choose units from the Army List? During list building, right?
When is the FOC relevant? There's literally no way to read "choose" other than to satisfy FOC slots except for units that are specifically exempted from filling them. And they wouldn't score.

Agreed, you choose during list building.
You can choose and fill a FOC slot (HQ Tyrant)
You can choose and not fill a FOC slot (HQ Tyrant Guard, dedicated transports, etc)
You can choose and fill a detachment (Units in Formations)

The Tyrant is an HQ army list selection and an HQ FOC slot selection
The Tyrant Guard is an HQ army list selection and has no FOC slot
The Detachment takes units from multiple army list selections and has no FOC slot

All of them are chosen from the army list. So I go back to spawned troops, identical to troops from the army list (not FOC), if they are allowed to score, so must troops chosen from the army list located in formation detachments.

wolvesoffenris wrote:
So I go back to spawned troops, identical to troops chosen from the army list (not FOC),

You keep missing a word in there. I've added it for you in bold.

rigeld2 wrote:

wolvesoffenris wrote:
So I go back to spawned troops, identical to troops chosen from the army list (not FOC),

You keep missing a word in there. I've added it for you in bold.

As I stated above, there are multiple ways to choose, and not all go into a corresponding FOC slot.
You can choose and fill a FOC slot (HQ Tyrant)
You can choose and not fill a FOC slot (HQ Tyrant Guard, dedicated transports, etc)
You can choose and fill a detachment (Units in Formations)

Army List selections are not equivalent to FOC selections in the rules.

Spawned termagants are equal to the army list selection, but that is not the same as saying they are equal to the FOC selection.

wolvesoffenris wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

wolvesoffenris wrote:
So I go back to spawned troops, identical to troops chosen from the army list (not FOC),

You keep missing a word in there. I've added it for you in bold.

As I stated above, there are multiple ways to choose, and not all go into a corresponding FOC slot.
You can choose and fill a FOC slot (HQ Tyrant)
You can choose and not fill a FOC slot (HQ Tyrant Guard, dedicated transports, etc)
You can choose and fill a detachment (Units in Formations)

Army List selections are not equivalent to FOC selections in the rules.

Spawned termagants are equal to the army list selection, but that is not the same as saying they are equal to the FOC selection.

They must be. You cannot choose to have them not fill a FOC slot, so it must be a choice to fill an FOC slot.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not a troops choice as it does not sit inside the FOC.

I have enjoyed this discussion and admire your persistence.

Does the fact that GW Digital have confirmed that the genestealers in question are a troop choice and count as scoring have any bearing on the matter?

Or is this discussion about what GW digital should have said, even though they manifestly didn't?

rigeld2 wrote:

They must be. You cannot choose to have them not fill a FOC slot, so it must be a choice to fill an FOC slot.

So when the next dataslate releases and termagants can be selected as part of a formation detachment you will concede that you are wrong? Or are you stating that no units can be chosen and not fill a FOC slot (which do exist, Tyrant Guard, Dedicated Transports, etc)?

It is pretty clear that spawned troops and formation troops are scoring to me. I see no difference in the rules between the two for scoring purposes.

rigeld2 wrote:

wolvesoffenris wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

wolvesoffenris wrote:
So I go back to spawned troops, identical to troops chosen from the army list (not FOC),

You keep missing a word in there. I've added it for you in bold.

As I stated above, there are multiple ways to choose, and not all go into a corresponding FOC slot.
You can choose and fill a FOC slot (HQ Tyrant)
You can choose and not fill a FOC slot (HQ Tyrant Guard, dedicated transports, etc)
You can choose and fill a detachment (Units in Formations)

Army List selections are not equivalent to FOC selections in the rules.

Spawned termagants are equal to the army list selection, but that is not the same as saying they are equal to the FOC selection.

They must be. You cannot choose to have them not fill a FOC slot, so it must be a choice to fill an FOC slot.

Hah seriously this is crazy... Look everything, literally everything you field in 40k now is part of the FOC - even Titans! You cannot select Tyrant Guard without first filling a FOC "slot" with a Tyrant - we all know that wording simply means they act as a retinue rather than a separate entry/slot. Dedicated transports are still part of your FOC, but do not follow the FO-Structure because they can be in any category depending on which unit purchased them - the BRB is very clear that they STILL count as the FOC category of which they were purchased.

Everything you purchase is part of the FOC - but what I'd like to know is where you got this reasoning? ->

rigeld2 wrote:You're failing to read the BRB now. If you're fielding an army you are using the FOC. By definition.
Unless you're using a dataslate - then you're not.

Where does it say these dataslates operate outside of the FOC? ...unfortunately the dataslate does not mention FOC (like all of the newer codex mind you) but if we are going to make assumptions - it is FAR more obvious that these operate 'just like everything else in the game' instead of some bizarre exception that is NOT mentioned anywhere.

Further it does tell us that these dataslates are just separate "detachments" - and while the BRB is much older than the dataslate, all of the other 'detachments' in the BRB are in the FOC.

The dataslate also goes so far as to re-list these units, as TROOPS; further the spell it out a few different ways - this is from the dataslate:

Tyranid Dataslate wrote:"Each datasheet will list the Faction it is part of. The Faction determines which codex the datasheet is considered part of for all rules purposes."

And again:

Tyranid Dataslate wrote: "Each Formation will tell you what units you need to take and what, if any, options or restrictions apply to the units that make up that Formation. The army list entries for each unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself."

In this case both the codex corresponding to the Faction and the dataslate list this units as Troops.

 Gunzhard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

wolvesoffenris wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

wolvesoffenris wrote:
So I go back to spawned troops, identical to troops chosen from the army list (not FOC),

You keep missing a word in there. I've added it for you in bold.

As I stated above, there are multiple ways to choose, and not all go into a corresponding FOC slot.
You can choose and fill a FOC slot (HQ Tyrant)
You can choose and not fill a FOC slot (HQ Tyrant Guard, dedicated transports, etc)
You can choose and fill a detachment (Units in Formations)

Army List selections are not equivalent to FOC selections in the rules.

Spawned termagants are equal to the army list selection, but that is not the same as saying they are equal to the FOC selection.

They must be. You cannot choose to have them not fill a FOC slot, so it must be a choice to fill an FOC slot.

Hah seriously this is crazy... Look everything, literally everything you field in 40k now is part of the FOC - even Titans! You cannot select Tyrant Guard without first filling a FOC "slot" with a Tyrant - we all know that wording simply means they act as a retinue rather than a separate entry/slot. Dedicated transports are still part of your FOC, but do not follow the FO-Structure because they can be in any category depending on which unit purchased them - the BRB is very clear that they STILL count as the FOC category of which they were purchased.

Everything you purchase is part of the FOC - but what I'd like to know is where you got this reasoning? ->

You're failing to read the BRB now. If you're fielding an army you are using the FOC. By definition.
Unless you're using a dataslate - then you're not.

Where does it say these dataslates operate outside of the FOC? ...unfortunately the dataslate does not mention FOC (like all of the newer codex mind you) but if we are going to make assumptions - it is FAR more obvious that these operate 'just like everything else in the game' instead of some bizarre exception that is NOT mentioned anywhere.

Further it does tell us that these dataslates are just separate "detachments" - and while the BRB is much older than the dataslate, all of the other 'detachments' in the BRB are in the FOC.

The dataslate also goes so far as to re-list these units, as TROOPS; further the spell it out a few different ways - this is from the dataslate:

"Tyranid Dataslate" wrote:"Each datasheet will list the Faction it is part of. The Faction determines which codex the datasheet is considered part of for all rules purposes."

And again:

"Tyranid Dataslate wrote: "Each Formation will tell you what units you need to take and what, if any, options or restrictions apply to the units that make up that Formation. The army list entries for each unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself."

In this case both the codex corresponding to the Faction and the dataslate list this units as Troops.

This +1

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:Does the fact that GW Digital have confirmed that the genestealers in question are a troop choice and count as scoring have any bearing on the matter?

As far as what the rules say, absolutely none. And that's what I'm discussing here, not some illusion of intent.

wolvesoffenris wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
They must be. You cannot choose to have them not fill a FOC slot, so it must be a choice to fill an FOC slot.

So when the next dataslate releases and termagants can be selected as part of a formation detachment you will concede that you are wrong? Or are you stating that no units can be chosen and not fill a FOC slot (which do exist, Tyrant Guard, Dedicated Transports, etc)?

It is pretty clear that spawned troops and formation troops are scoring to me. I see no difference in the rules between the two for scoring purposes.

Then you're failing to read. There's absolutely a difference between them according to the actual rules.

Gunzhard wrote:Hah seriously this is crazy... Look everything, literally everything you field in 40k now is part of the FOC - even Titans! You cannot select Tyrant Guard without first filling a FOC "slot" with a Tyrant - we all know that wording simply means they act as a retinue rather than a separate entry/slot.

... They're not a retinue at all. They're a completely separate unit that never has to be joined by the Tyrant.

Dedicated transports are still part of your FOC, but do not follow the FO-Structure because they can be in any category depending on which unit purchased them - the BRB is very clear that they STILL count as the FOC category of which they were purchased.

It's almost like they have a specific rule saying that...
Almost...

Everything you purchase is part of the FOC - but what I'd like to know is where you got this reasoning? ->

rigeld2 wrote:You're failing to read the BRB now. If you're fielding an army you are using the FOC. By definition.
Unless you're using a dataslate - then you're not.

Where does it say these dataslates operate outside of the FOC? ...unfortunately the dataslate does not mention FOC (like all of the newer codex mind you) but if we are going to make assumptions - it is FAR more obvious that these operate 'just like everything else in the game' instead of some bizarre exception that is NOT mentioned anywhere.

The codexes don't need to mention the FOC - because of the way the base rulebook is worded.
The dataslates - which, as you know, aren't included in the BRB - do need to mention the FOC if they're meant to be taken as part of the FOC.

Further it does tell us that these dataslates are just separate "detachments" - and while the BRB is much older than the dataslate, all of the other 'detachments' in the BRB are in the FOC.

Almost like rules matter and those rules specify detachments...

In this case both the codex corresponding to the Faction and the dataslate list this units as Troops.

Which, as has been pointed out, is irrelevant.

Would a Tyrant and a Manufactorum Genestealer Brood make a legal army? Why or why not?

As above. The rules are there for a reason.

rigeld2 wrote:

Gunzhard wrote:Hah seriously this is crazy... Look everything, literally everything you field in 40k now is part of the FOC - even Titans! You cannot select Tyrant Guard without first filling a FOC "slot" with a Tyrant - we all know that wording simply means they act as a retinue rather than a separate entry/slot.

... They're not a retinue at all. They're a completely separate unit that never has to be joined by the Tyrant.

Uhh retinues, command squads etc ARE separate units; and IC's can join/leave a unit at any time - even if this were not the case, the point is unaffected. In these cases it says "does not use up" -- which is different from "is not part of" - unless you are really just being contrary you know this means it does not use an ADDITIONAL slot.

rigeld2 wrote:

Dedicated transports are still part of your FOC, but do not follow the FO-Structure because they can be in any category depending on which unit purchased them - the BRB is very clear that they STILL count as the FOC category of which they were purchased.

It's almost like they have a specific rule saying that...
Almost...

From the BRB: "Dedicated Transports count as being from the same Force Organization category as the unit they were bought for."

rigeld2 wrote:

Everything you purchase is part of the FOC - but what I'd like to know is where you got this reasoning? ->

rigeld2 wrote:You're failing to read the BRB now. If you're fielding an army you are using the FOC. By definition.
Unless you're using a dataslate - then you're not.

Where does it say these dataslates operate outside of the FOC? ...unfortunately the dataslate does not mention FOC (like all of the newer codex mind you) but if we are going to make assumptions - it is FAR more obvious that these operate 'just like everything else in the game' instead of some bizarre exception that is NOT mentioned anywhere.

The codexes don't need to mention the FOC - because of the way the base rulebook is worded.
The dataslates - which, as you know, aren't included in the BRB - do need to mention the FOC if they're meant to be taken as part of the FOC.

Further it does tell us that these dataslates are just separate "detachments" - and while the BRB is much older than the dataslate, all of the other 'detachments' in the BRB are in the FOC.

Almost like rules matter and those rules specify detachments...

The dataslate very clearly states that it is a separate detachment.

rigeld2 wrote:

In this case both the codex corresponding to the Faction and the dataslate list this units as Troops.

Which, as has been pointed out, is irrelevant.

Oh in this case rules - are ... irrelevant?

rigeld2 wrote:

Would a Tyrant and a Manufactorum Genestealer Brood make a legal army? Why or why not?

No - because they are from separate detachments.

 Gunzhard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Gunzhard wrote:Hah seriously this is crazy... Look everything, literally everything you field in 40k now is part of the FOC - even Titans! You cannot select Tyrant Guard without first filling a FOC "slot" with a Tyrant - we all know that wording simply means they act as a retinue rather than a separate entry/slot.

... They're not a retinue at all. They're a completely separate unit that never has to be joined by the Tyrant.

Uhh retinues, command squads etc ARE separate units; and IC's can join/leave a unit at any time - even if this were not the case, the point is unaffected. In these cases it says "does not use up" -- which is different from "is not part of" - unless you are really just being contrary you know this means it does not use an ADDITIONAL slot.

"Retinue" has a specific connotation in that the HQ must be joined to them. Thank older editions for that.

rigeld2 wrote:

Dedicated transports are still part of your FOC, but do not follow the FO-Structure because they can be in any category depending on which unit purchased them - the BRB is very clear that they STILL count as the FOC category of which they were purchased.

It's almost like they have a specific rule saying that...
Almost...

From the BRB: "Dedicated Transports count as being from the same Force Organization category as the unit they were bought for."

Right - exactly what I meant.

The dataslate very clearly states that it is a separate detachment.

Yup. And it mentions nothing about being part of the FOC.

rigeld2 wrote:

In this case both the codex corresponding to the Faction and the dataslate list this units as Troops.

Which, as has been pointed out, is irrelevant.

Oh in this case rules - are ... irrelevant?

When they have no bearing on the discussion at hand, yes they're irrelevant.

rigeld2 wrote:

Would a Tyrant and a Manufactorum Genestealer Brood make a legal army? Why or why not?

No - because they are from separate detachments.

But - and this is according to you - there is no difference between the Troops in the detachment and the Troops in the codex.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
I don't know rigeld2. Units in a formation are also chosen from the codex.

No they're not - they're chosen from the dataslate. It's why you can use the StormWing formation with Codex: Space Wolves and not have to buy C: SM.

Yes, they are. Every single dataslate contants a passage just like this one

Army and Battlefield Role
A Reclusiam Command Squad is a Formation that consists of the following units chosen from Codex: Space Marines:

1 Chaplain

1 Command Squad

As you can see, the units in the formation are chosen from the codex. The information is reprinted so you don't have to buy the codex but as far as RAW is concerned the unit is chosen from the codex.

The unit also has the battlefield role, but this does not mean including the unit in your force makes it a FOC selection.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
I don't see much of a functional difference if any to units that are 'spawned' mid game. I also don't see any evidence that the units spawned mid game are scoring units. We know the the Deamons rule makes it clear these units award victory points as normal, but that does not mean they are scoring. It means in games where killing a unit awards victory points then killing this spawned unit awards victory points as normal. The Tervigon rule does not make that unit scoring either as troop selections being scoring units is not a mission special rule.

Then you didn't read the Tervigon rule I pasted above. It explicitly says they're exactly like a unit that was selected. If a selected unit scores then the spawned unit must score, or they aren't exactly alike.

A unit chosen from the codex is not necessarily a unit from a FOC selection even though both are chosen.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Gunzhard wrote:Hah seriously this is crazy... Look everything, literally everything you field in 40k now is part of the FOC - even Titans! You cannot select Tyrant Guard without first filling a FOC "slot" with a Tyrant - we all know that wording simply means they act as a retinue rather than a separate entry/slot.

... They're not a retinue at all. They're a completely separate unit that never has to be joined by the Tyrant.

Uhh retinues, command squads etc ARE separate units; and IC's can join/leave a unit at any time - even if this were not the case, the point is unaffected. In these cases it says "does not use up" -- which is different from "is not part of" - unless you are really just being contrary you know this means it does not use an ADDITIONAL slot.

"Retinue" has a specific connotation in that the HQ must be joined to them. Thank older editions for that.

This isn't an older edition.

rigeld2 wrote:

Would a Tyrant and a Manufactorum Genestealer Brood make a legal army? Why or why not?

No - because they are from separate detachments.

But - and this is according to you - there is no difference between the Troops in the detachment and the Troops in the codex.

This here is the crux of it all - there IS no difference, but they are still separate detachments, just like allied detachments, Can you field Dante and two Space Wolves troop squads as a legal army? ...no - they are separate detachments, but if you make a proper "allied" (and SEPARATE) detachment the Space Wolf troops are scoring.

 Gunzhard wrote:
This isn't an older edition.

Sure - just explaining the confusion around the word.

This here is the crux of it all - there IS no difference, but they are still separate detachments, just like allied detachments, Can you field Dante and two Space Wolves troop squads as a legal army? ...no - they are separate detachments, but if you make a proper "allied" (and SEPARATE) detachment the Space Wolf troops are scoring.

Units from a detachment must be chosen from the same codex, per the rules.
Tyrant + MGB is from one codex and, according to you, there's literally no difference between them and selecting a bunch of Genestealer broods.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
This isn't an older edition.

Sure - just explaining the confusion around the word.

This here is the crux of it all - there IS no difference, but they are still separate detachments, just like allied detachments, Can you field Dante and two Space Wolves troop squads as a legal army? ...no - they are separate detachments, but if you make a proper "allied" (and SEPARATE) detachment the Space Wolf troops are scoring.

Units from a detachment must be chosen from the same codex, per the rules.
Tyrant + MGB is from one codex and, according to you, there's literally no difference between them and selecting a bunch of Genestealer broods.

Everything you just wrote is true - AND you need to include that these 'bunch of Genestealer broods' we are talking about ARE in a separate detachment.

When you play huge games (2000+) and you include an 'Additional Primary Detachment' - you still select from the same codex - the units still work the same, ARE the same - they are still a SEPARATE detachment.

 Gunzhard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
This isn't an older edition.

Sure - just explaining the confusion around the word.

This here is the crux of it all - there IS no difference, but they are still separate detachments, just like allied detachments, Can you field Dante and two Space Wolves troop squads as a legal army? ...no - they are separate detachments, but if you make a proper "allied" (and SEPARATE) detachment the Space Wolf troops are scoring.

Units from a detachment must be chosen from the same codex, per the rules.
Tyrant + MGB is from one codex and, according to you, there's literally no difference between them and selecting a bunch of Genestealer broods.

Everything you just wrote is true - AND you need to include that these 'bunch of Genestealer broods' we are talking about ARE in a separate detachment.

When you play huge games (2000+) and you include an 'Additional Primary Detachment' - you still select from the same codex - the units still work the same, ARE the same - they are still a SEPARATE detachment.

And? There's an explicit minimum requirement you have to meet.

My point is that for a primary detachment to be legal you have to fill 3 slots - 1 HQ and 2 Troop.
Those units must all come from the same codex.
I select a Tyrant and the MGB. That is, according to you, an HQ and 5 Troops all from the same codex. You keep saying that a different detachment matters - cite the rule.