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Just finished a 4 player game each with a 1000 point army. Ogres (me) and Orcs on one side, 2 dwarf players on the other. We butchered them nearly to a man (dwarf heads everywhere - 1 cannon and 1 hero left) and as always we had a couple of questions that arose in the end.

1. A unit shooting at 5+ at long range in soft cover (for example) needs a 7+ to hit. Therefore they still hit on a 6+ but roll half their attacks, rounded down. But, what about a cannon? It only shoots once, so rounding down would take it to zero shots. Does this apply? Or is 1 shot the minimum? (The latter is my opinion)

2. I used for the first time the Red Goblin Blaster today. It can be fired anytime in the Shooting phase, but does it count as a shooting attack? Can it move At The Double and blow itself up in the shooting phase?

3. I also used a lone Ogre. While it is a single model, does it count as a full unit still? Does it have a flank and rear as normal? (since it still does not have the Individual rule) I suppose it is still a unit, but I thought I'd make sure.

I'm sure there was a 4th question, but I can't seem to remember it right now. If it comes back to me, I'll post it.

Thanks

all good questions (I cant really answer as I've not played KoW yet) but with sensibility in mind;

1; yes 1 shot sounds fair, rounding down to zero would be riddiculous.

2; ?!? good question tbh. this could make a huge differecne and its looking unclear from the rules.

3; I believe it counts as a unit and has flanks unless it is stated to be a monster or a hero in its listing. No exceptions?

1. Actually, rounding down from 1 to zero for a canon is correct. You just can't make the shot.

2. I don't have the Ogre list available from the book that includes red goblins. Matt over on Mantic forums who wrote that rule says the device CAN move at the double and then blow-up. It's not a shooting attack; it just occurs during shooting phase.

3. If a unit (even a single model) doesn't have Individual as part of its profile, it has all the aspects (sides and flanks).

The answer for 1 is surprising. The rule is clearly intended to reduce the chance of hitting when at range or in reduced (but not zero) visibility.
The chance is reduced to zero instead? seems a bit over the top?

It's had serious discussion and consideration. Reportedly will be changed in the next edition of the rules.

In the meantime, if you take a warmachine with Indirect, you always hit the target on high enough roll (if it's in range) regardless of modifiers.

1. The cannon still gets 1 shot but not for the reasons you think...

The Piercing special rule says:
"In addition, ranged attacks with a Piercing
value of at least (3) are so powerful that they
can punch their way through cover easily, so
they never suffer the -1 penalty for soft cover
on their rolls to hit. They also suffer a -1
rather than -2 to hit when shooting at targets
in hard cover"

So you never get the -1 or -2 to hit for cover from a cannon, but you still get -1 to hit for long range (over 24"). The only times a cannon can get another -1 to hit is if the target unit has The Fog or the Individual special rule. If a cannon does have -2 to hit then it can't shoot at that target since it goes to 0 attacks.

No debate about it.

2. It's done in the shooting phase but isn't a shooting attack, so can explode if it moves at the double.

3. Yes. Unless a model specifically has the individual special rule then it has flanks, a rear and a facing.

I stand corrected. I never saw that in the Piercing rules write-up. Daedleh, thank you for the heads-up.

Actually, what happened today was a cannon shooting at long range at a unit with The Fog. I gave an example with the cover not thinking about the Piercing.
Thanks everyone!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just remembered the 4th question...
4. During deployment, do heroes get placed one at a time, or all at once? Same for war machines.

One at a time. I often deploy my artillery first, giving me three to five "dead drops" since they generally deploy regardless of where my opponent does.

Yes, everyone playing war machines usually deploy them first, it is a logical move.

privateer4hire wrote:
It's had serious discussion and consideration. Reportedly will be changed in the next edition of the rules.

In the meantime, if you take a warmachine with Indirect, you always hit the target on high enough roll (if it's in range) regardless of modifiers.

I hope rounding down doesn't change. The -1 for long range and -1 for shooting at an Individual means the cannon is not a sniper (which was really annoying about Warhammer)

Remember that Indirect shots can still be modified by shooting at an Individual or someone who is Stealthy (such as with The Fog). Indirect only ignores the modifiers for range and cover.

So to make an Individual impervious to war machines, give them The Fog. -1 for Individual and -1 for The Fog means most warmachines with one die shooting cannot hit (unless it's got a Range stat of 4+ such as Elf and Twilight Kin war machines)

The serious discussion (turns out) was my reading pre-hardback rules discussion. Specifically people were complaining that hiding in soft cover plus long range shouldn't save you from a cannon shot.
The Piercing rule (that Daedleh referenced and I'd never ready closely enough regarding long range) seems to have incorporated that discussed change.

Also thanks for fixing my failure to read Indirect only ignoring range & cover (and therefore still being affected by other stuff).
I swear I'm beginning to think I've not read this fething game's rules at all (ironic since I've demoed it several dozen times from Richmond VA up to DC to Waynesboro, PA to Glen Burnie MD).

OK - here are the main ruls questions that came up after my last game last weekend - about charging:


In this pic, the Treeman (giant) is on the same side as the Wolves (goblin fleabags). Despite the big round base, we've got a square 50mm glued under the treeman for determining facing. so he's pretty much facing towards us in this shot.

The question is: Who can he charge? Both the Men of Gondor and the Ogre in the stolen chariot are in the Ent's front arc, but the friendly Elf on Cold one is (at least) partially blocking his path to the chariot, and the chariot is blocking his path to the Men of Gondor. What do we do?




A similar question here, with the Ent again - Obviously he can charge the chariot here, but can he charge the Men of Gondor in the side?

thanks!

The big thing to break here is that Charging Is Not A Straight Line Like Warhammer.

Relevant text: Pages 31-32 of the rulebook

CHARGE!
A charge is the only way your units can move into contact
with the enemy. A unit can charge a single enemy unit
(‘the target’) as long as the following conditions are met:

- the target is at least partially in your unit's front arc;

- the closest point of the target is equal to or less than
double your unit’s Speed;

- the distance between the base of the unit's Leader
and the closest point of the target is equal to or less
than double your unit's Speed;

- there is enough space for your unit to physically move
into contact with the target by moving as described below.

Moving Chargers
As they move, charging units can move forward without
measuring how much distance they actually cover, and
pivot twice around their centre up to 90º, at any point
during their move.
They must, however, always use the shortest way
possible, going around any blocking terrain and any
unit in their way (friends and foes). Note that they
must go through any area of difficult terrain or obstacle
that would normally slow down their movement. These
elements of terrain do not slow down Charge moves, but
they cause the charging unit to suffer a slight penalty in
the ensuing melee.
Basically, the only thing that matters during a Charge
move is that the unit has physically enough space to
move into contact with the target.
Once the charging unit is in contact with the target,
align it with the side of the target you are charging so
that it is flush with it.
Finally, shuffle the chargers sideways until their Leader is
facing directly opposite the centre of the target unit, or
as close as possible to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the first shot with the Ent the big one qualifier is:

"there is enough space for your unit to physically move into
contact with the target by moving as described below."


which would be
"Basically, the only thing that matters during a Charge
move is that the unit has physically enough space to
move into contact with the target.
Once the charging unit is in contact with the target,
align it with the side of the target you are charging so
that it is flush with it.
Finally, shuffle the chargers sideways until their Leader is
facing directly opposite the centre of the target unit, or
as close as possible to it."


It's a little hard to tell from the pic, but if the Ent physically had enough room to even get a little bit of it's base flush against an enemy unit, then it could charge, and then you "shuffle the chargers sideway until their Leader is facing directly opposite the center of the target unit OR AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to it."

It's an admission that our units are not grid like geometric squares, so even a few mm worth of contact would be still a full on fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Second shot - yes he can. The Men of Gondor are in the Ent's front arc and the End can see the Men of Gondor. All the Charge conditions are satisfied. During the Moving Chargers section the first sentence is

"As they move, charging units can move forward without
measuring how much distance they actually cover, and
pivot twice around their centre up to 90º, at any point
during their move."

The Ent would use his first pivot to pivot to his right about 45 degrees away from the chariot then move toward the Men of Gondor's flank. Remember!!:

"Flank and Rear Charges
If a charging unit’s Leader is mostly in the target’s front
arc when the order to Charge is given, the unit must
charge the target’s front facing.
If a charging unit’s Leader is mostly in the target’s right
or left flank arc when the order to Charge is given, the
unit must charge the target’s appropriate flank facing.
If a charging unit’s Leader is mostly in the target’s rear
arc when the order to Charge is given, the unit must
charge the target’s rear facing."

That is determined by the charging unit's position when the order is given!! So the Ent, being in the Men of Gondor's flank when he is given the order to charge them, would charge their flank. Measuring his distance from where he sits to the Men of Gondor, if it is equal to or less than double his Speed, it's a good charge. Pivot the Ent once to be clear of the chariot, move it towards the men of Gondor, and pivot again then finish it's move to hit the flank. Then align the Ent against the Men of Gondor and get your double attacks as the Ent is not Individual!



BACK TO THE FIRST PIC
Looking at it again - it's hard to tell if the Ent would have enough room to engage the Gondor in the flank (the chariot may be protecting it's flank enough so the Ent couldn't fit which is a perfectly valid tactic - if you can't fit, you can't fit) - but - the Ent can clearly see the chariot's flank. He meets all the conditions of Charging someone. During his Charge move he can make two 90 degree pivots... the first pivot turns him at an angle to his right so he passes in FRONT of the Cold One(?) hero, the second pivot to his left to face the flank of the chariot, and the rest of his move to hit the chariot's flank.

Situation 1: Yes to the chariot, I'd say no to the Men of Gondor looking at the pictures. It doesn't look like there's enough room for the ent to fit in the flank of the Men of Gondor.

For the chariot, the charge would look something like this:


1. Turn 90 degrees to the right and move forward.
2. Turn 90 degrees to the left and move forward.

If the units are lined up like in my diagram with no exposed flank from the MoG then the ent can't charge their flank. It would have to manoeuvre so that it could charge the front next turn. This is essentially charge blocking/flank protection and is a very valid tactic. It works especially well if you park your flank against impassable terrain (if the chariot was a building instead for example) since your opponent has to spend a turn getting into a valid position to charge you.

Situation 2: Yes.



Same as before - 90 degrees to the right, move forward, pivot to line up with flank and move in. The ent would then be shuffled towards the centre of the flank as much as possible.

This has been lovingly referred to by mates as a "Daedle charge" since I pull these off quite regularly. Things to consider:
1. You have to hit the flank that you're in, you can't go into a different flank.
2. You can't overlap an enemy unit while doing so, HOWEVER on a charge you can approach within 1" of an enemy unit. This means that square units or regiments can still pull this off but troops won't be able to since their initial pivot will end on top of the enemy unit.

So, if a regiment is 1" away from an enemy unit in front of them and pivots 90 degrees then they will be within 1" of an enemy unit so can't normally do that pivot. When charging you can ignore the 1" gap so it can be done.

If a troop does this then they end that initial pivot on top of an enemy unit so can't do it.

Yep, we read the RAW several times,

 judgedoug wrote:
The big thing to break here is that Charging Is Not A Straight Line Like Warhammer.

It's a little hard to tell from the pic, but if the Ent physically had enough room to even get a little bit of it's base flush against an enemy unit, then it could charge, and then you "shuffle the chargers sideway until their Leader is facing directly opposite the center of the target unit OR AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to it."

It's an admission that our units are not grid like geometric squares, so even a few mm worth of contact would be still a full on fight.

BACK TO THE FIRST PIC
Looking at it again - it's hard to tell if the Ent would have enough room to engage the Gondor in the flank (the chariot may be protecting it's flank enough so the Ent couldn't fit which is a perfectly valid tactic - if you can't fit, you can't fit) - but - the Ent can clearly see the chariot's flank. He meets all the conditions of Charging someone. During his Charge move he can make two 90 degree pivots... the first pivot turns him at an angle to his right so he passes in FRONT of the Cold One(?) hero, the second pivot to his left to face the flank of the chariot, and the rest of his move to hit the chariot's flank.

OK - now the way we played it -

In the first pic, we (well, I) decided that he could not, because to charge the Men, he'd have had to go through the Chariot, OR pull a 90 degree turn when he got to their front.

To charge the Chariot, he'd have either had to go around the left (again, a "hook" charge") or into the very front corner of the chariot because of the elf, (who would have been bumped about 5 inches off the side by the 1" bumper-car rule.") To hit the back it would have taken 3 turns, because of the ruins to the side of the Ent (which he'd been using to hide from the Men/Ogres' shooting/charges). Since the rules say you can't charge through a friendly, the Elf ended up protecting the enemy chariot for a turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Second shot - yes he can. The Men of Gondor are in the Ent's front arc and the End can see the Men of Gondor. All the Charge conditions are satisfied.

That is determined by the charging unit's position when the order is given!! So the Ent, being in the Men of Gondor's flank when he is given the order to charge them, would charge their flank. Measuring his distance from where he sits to the Men of Gondor, if it is equal to or less than double his Speed, it's a good charge. Pivot the Ent once to be clear of the chariot, move it towards the men of Gondor, and pivot again then finish it's move to hit the flank. Then align the Ent against the Men of Gondor and get your double attacks as the Ent is not Individual!

Yep, that's how we played it.

good!

 Azazelx wrote:



In the first pic, we (well, I) decided that he could not, because to charge the Men, he'd have had to go through the Chariot, OR pull a 90 degree turn when he got to their front.

To charge the Chariot, he'd have either had to go around the left (again, a "hook" charge") or into the very front corner of the chariot because of the elf, (who would have been bumped about 5 inches off the side by the 1" bumper-car rule.") To hit the back it would have taken 3 turns, because of the ruins to the side of the Ent (which he'd been using to hide from the Men/Ogres' shooting/charges). Since the rules say you can't charge through a friendly, the Elf ended up protecting the enemy chariot for a turn.

Sorry, it must be the angle of the pic. From what I see it looks like the chariot's left wheel is wide open but now I think I see model(s) in front of the cold one rider?

Yeah the wheel is open. The thing that you're talking about is the ogre banner bearer inside the chariot. The ent would have had to pivot right 45, move forward, pivot another 45 right, move forward past the elf then pivot 90 left and forward into the wheel.

Here's a confirmation question: ogre shooters with blunderbusses and breath attack retain "reload", right?

 Azazelx wrote:
Yeah the wheel is open. The thing that you're talking about is the ogre banner bearer inside the chariot. The ent would have had to pivot right 45, move forward, pivot another 45 right, move forward past the elf then pivot 90 left and forward into the wheel.

Here's a confirmation question: ogre shooters with blunderbusses and breath attack retain "reload", right?

Ah okay I see what you're saying. From the angle of the pic, it looks to me like the Ent could pivot right 45, go forward 8 inches or so, pivot left 45 degrees, then a few inches into the chariot. So if he would need to make more than two pivots during the charge then yes, he cannot charge.


Correct, I don't have the books near me but the wording is something like "swap to blunderbusses and gain breath attack 5 and piercing 2" but the reload! rule definitely stays.