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Buffmander can`t join a wraithknight, and if the wraithknight shoots the bastion, that is great. Two less S10 guns with chance of instant killing your MC`s. Nids love the bastion. They don`t even have to start inside it.

While I love seeing alternative armies, I don`t think this particular nid army is good enough for this level of competitive play.

 Reecius wrote:
Give Blackmoor a break, fellas! He tries his best. Plus, there were like 10 people watching the game, too, it is easy to make mistakes under pressure.

Stealers would have gotten killed by SMS first turn had they infiltrated.

It's a brutal match-up, but not just Taudar. Nids will struggle BADLY against:

Tau
Eldar
Space Wolves
Dark Eldar
Space Marines
Heldrakes
Grey Knights

Those armies just mulch Nids, bad. We've tried a lot of them and it's rough.

Then be a man and give all Tyranid players +250pts at each tourney you run starting with the LVO. You have said yourself it is the worst codex ever written. Time to legislate the Tyranid Players Disability Act of 2014 and give them more points.

Let's assume It's been determined that the new nid book is grossly underpowered. Ok, that sucks but what else can nid players do? I suggest a series of batreps featuring

Space Wolves
Dark Eldar
Space Marines
Heldrakes
Grey Knights

Vs the studio TauDar list and see how well they do. Maybe isn't the problem that nids don't meet the bar -- perhaps taudar simply set the bar too high...

I think it is the Taudar that are making the Nids look bad. They do alright against some of the other armies.

@Darth

Lol, be a man? Haha, that is a bit much on the inflammatory language scale, but, I agree with you.

It is too late to do anything for LVO, that is a week away. We're going to let Nid players use the Old or New dex this year though, which will help.

I have joked about giving all Nid players a free, out of FoC chart Tyranid Prime with Norn Crown to help level the playing field or to just ignore Instinctive Behavior all together. Synapse grants fearless or does nothing at all.

I think either of those changes will help a lot.

@Tetrisphreak

I agree Taudar is bananas. No question. The entire point of this experiment was to see if Nids had any chance against ANY army. Not just Taudar. I just threw in the $100 challenge to spice things up and make it more exciting.

So far, Nids haven't managed to win any fights against any army unless the opponent had a very soft list and made a lot of mistakes. Even then, it is a struggle.

We would pit the studio Taudar agasint the other armies as learning how to beat Taudar is a valuable bit of info, but we will only have it for another week and a half! Haha, it will belong to someone else at LVO after we raffle it off.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Blackmoor

We tried Nids vs. Dark Eldar, Frankie tabled them turn 2!

They suck against so many armies, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, etc.

I think it's time to do what Pokemon does and make Tiered levels of competitiveness for units... Either way, there's going to have to be some major TO homebrew rules to make this game not reliant on two armies always winning.

Even IF tyranids won this match, would it really be a win? I mean, all they did was sit back and pray to the hive mind that everything would work out perfectly on turn 5. That doesn't seem very fun to me at all.

 jy2 wrote:
Unless, of course, he targets the synapse.

That's why I highly recommend the bastion. Don't let Tau kill off your synapse with SMS ripple-fire.

Only if you build the rest of your list poorly. A Norn crown prime that hops from unit to unit is probably nids most reliable synapse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as the bastion, I am starting to think its not worth it. It soaks up three slots and costs 170 minimum (venom, zoan, bastion = 2 elite + fortification) and I don't think it's that hard to counter once familiar with it. EVERY TAC army I think that's worth its salt has some form of barrage or ignores LOS unit OR has a solid form of AT to drop the tower turn 2. nailing 3 slots worth of linchpn units that total 170 and are soft for FB makes it to wonky to base a list on IMO. Heck I'd rather see an aegis plus venoms and 6-9 biovores. Nids need to force the enemy to ground early for the tide to hit.

A shame i didn't get a chance. Sad face. But the travel would negate the $100 pretty darn quick

 Red Corsair wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Unless, of course, he targets the synapse.

That's why I highly recommend the bastion. Don't let Tau kill off your synapse with SMS ripple-fire.

Only if you build the rest of your list poorly. A Norn crown prime that hops from unit to unit is probably nids most reliable synapse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as the bastion, I am starting to think its not worth it. It soaks up three slots and costs 170 minimum (venom, zoan, bastion = 2 elite + fortification) and I don't think it's that hard to counter once familiar with it. EVERY TAC army I think is worth its salt has some form of barrage or ignores LOS unit OR has a solid for of AT to drop the tower turn 2. nailing 3 slots worth of linchpn units that total 170 and are soft for FB makes it to wonky to base a list on IMO. Heck I'd rather see an aegis plus venoms and 6-9 biovores. Nids need to force the enemy to ground early for the tide to hit.

I pretty much agree with you. Every game so far everyone has targeted my synapse. Even in games I have won I am normally left with just a Hive Tyrant hiding behind LOS blocking terrain. They made almost everything's leadership so low and the instinctive behavior tables so bad that doing without synapse means that your whole army is crippled. Add to this that the units that have synapse are so few and not that great is a huge problem. I am starting to think that you need a Tyranid Prime.

I am also not sold on a bastion, but I see that it can work. I played one with my Eldar (before the new codex) and it was destroyed more often than not.

You know what the reminds me of? The old Vampire Counts rules. ho man. Lose those Vampires and you are in trooooooouble. Though crafty placement and outflankign can keep synapse going as you cross the board.

This is why I think the Tyranid Prime with the Norn Crown is better than just a Zoanthrope in a Bastion. IF the Bastion gets destroyed then your Zoanthrope is flapping out in the wind but the Prime can just quickly join a large unit of Gants and then march up the field. To each his own I have yet to try out my army list so everything im saying is just what I have seen on paper.

That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!

Honestly, I think what we are getting out of these reports is two things:

1. Taudar is stupid OP.

2. The nid book is written like trash.

I would like to see a battlereport with, say, an all comers list vs. nids and then that EXACT same list vs. Taudar to test if Nids are really that bad or if Taudar is really unstoppable.

Blackmoor played right into Reecius' hands... holding back the Mawlocs that could have been awesome disruption units... no comms relay... not outflanking with the genestealers. And really you should have rolled FNP for the Flyrant... Reecius said himself in the batrep you gave him a ton of mulligans "because he is an old man"... OMG...Totally played... ROFLMAO !!!

 Happygrunt wrote:
Honestly, I think what we are getting out of these reports is two things:

1. Taudar is stupid OP.

2. The nid book is written like trash.

I would like to see a battlereport with, say, an all comers list vs. nids and then that EXACT same list vs. Taudar to test if Nids are really that bad or if Taudar is really unstoppable.

Thats not what I got out of it. =)

 Reecius wrote:
That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!

The book is wonky I'll give you that. But really people should take the norn prime as it is. He really isn't overpriced for the book he is written into. People REALLY don't understand how crazy it is to have a mini MC IC in a book with units of MC's and massive waves of fearless swarms.
consider this core:
~170- Norn prime (don't have book)
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
180- 30 x Gargs

That leaves you with plenty of point still in 1500-1850 for things that buff and support these gribblies.

My theory; people are justifiably denying this because they spent the last 2 editions buying flyrants, tervigons and a million termigants. Now the better unit is the horm IMO, better IB chart even if Crap hits the fan as you'll stay on that objective and WAY more mobile for the cost. Nobody wants to shlef 75-100 gants to now build 75-100 GAUNTS!

Taudar have crazy firepower but giving them juicy targets is just what they want. Make him waste riptides on cheap gribblies while your primes hide out in them. Each riptide needs to kill almost 2 full broods to recoup cost... never gona happen. Wraithknight is even worse. Trouble with all these dual flyrant lists is the same problem. On paper you have 2 great synapse creatures, except they generally never want to be in range of synapse in order to be affective. So they end up hiding baby sitting units. They are also laughably easy to shoot down without biomancy.

I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.

 Red Corsair wrote:


I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.

True words. Those are true words.

 Happygrunt wrote:
Honestly, I think what we are getting out of these reports is two things:

1. Taudar is stupid OP.

2. The nid book is written like trash.

I would like to see a battlereport with, say, an all comers list vs. nids and then that EXACT same list vs. Taudar to test if Nids are really that bad or if Taudar is really unstoppable.

I wouldn't even classify this particular Taudar list as top tier. It has too many squishy bits in it. Pathfinders, smaller squads of Fire Warriors. I know my Daemons list wouldn't fear this like they would an Ovesa Star, a Jetstar, or a build flipped around to Eldar Primary with a few Serpents to toughen it up.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!

The book is wonky I'll give you that. But really people should take the norn prime as it is. He really isn't overpriced for the book he is written into. People REALLY don't understand how crazy it is to have a mini MC IC in a book with units of MC's and massive waves of fearless swarms.
consider this core:
~170- Norn prime (don't have book)
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
180- 30 x Gargs

That leaves you with plenty of point still in 1500-1850 for things that buff and support these gribblies.

My theory; people are justifiably denying this because they spent the last 2 editions buying flyrants, tervigons and a million termigants. Now the better unit is the horm IMO, better IB chart even if Crap hits the fan as you'll stay on that objective and WAY more mobile for the cost. Nobody wants to shlef 75-100 gants to now build 75-100 GAUNTS!

Taudar have crazy firepower but giving them juicy targets is just what they want. Make him waste riptides on cheap gribblies while your primes hide out in them. Each riptide needs to kill almost 2 full broods to recoup cost... never gona happen. Wraithknight is even worse. Trouble with all these dual flyrant lists is the same problem. On paper you have 2 great synapse creatures, except they generally never want to be in range of synapse in order to be affective. So they end up hiding baby sitting units. They are also laughably easy to shoot down without biomancy.

I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.

This is where I don't really understand these horde players who don't do MSU. The proposed broods of 30 horms will take 25 deaths from 5 serpent in a single turn of average shooting. It is even worse from a tau pulse bomb, etc. After 25 casualties you will have trouble just gaining ground from your casualties. After 25 deaths the prime is looking much more exposed. There is also the issue of time constraints (may be a positive to keep the tyranid player on the board as you will never clear 5 turns) and force concentration where that many troops takes up a huge board area.

I am not saying it couldn't work but I think it needs a lot more development as the swarm is not that survivable in modern 40K where cover just doesn't increase survivability like you might want. Venomthropes might help a little (it reduces the SL damage and makes the Tau player burn MLs).

Outflanking broods are cool.

 ansacs wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!

The book is wonky I'll give you that. But really people should take the norn prime as it is. He really isn't overpriced for the book he is written into. People REALLY don't understand how crazy it is to have a mini MC IC in a book with units of MC's and massive waves of fearless swarms.
consider this core:
~170- Norn prime (don't have book)
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
180- 30 x Gargs

That leaves you with plenty of point still in 1500-1850 for things that buff and support these gribblies.

My theory; people are justifiably denying this because they spent the last 2 editions buying flyrants, tervigons and a million termigants. Now the better unit is the horm IMO, better IB chart even if Crap hits the fan as you'll stay on that objective and WAY more mobile for the cost. Nobody wants to shlef 75-100 gants to now build 75-100 GAUNTS!

Taudar have crazy firepower but giving them juicy targets is just what they want. Make him waste riptides on cheap gribblies while your primes hide out in them. Each riptide needs to kill almost 2 full broods to recoup cost... never gona happen. Wraithknight is even worse. Trouble with all these dual flyrant lists is the same problem. On paper you have 2 great synapse creatures, except they generally never want to be in range of synapse in order to be affective. So they end up hiding baby sitting units. They are also laughably easy to shoot down without biomancy.

I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.

This is where I don't really understand these horde players who don't do MSU. The proposed broods of 30 horms will take 25 deaths from 5 serpent in a single turn of average shooting. It is even worse from a tau pulse bomb, etc. After 25 casualties you will have trouble just gaining ground from your casualties. After 25 deaths the prime is looking much more exposed. There is also the issue of time constraints (may be a positive to keep the tyranid player on the board as you will never clear 5 turns) and force concentration where that many troops takes up a huge board area.

I am not saying it couldn't work but I think it needs a lot more development as the swarm is not that survivable in modern 40K where cover just doesn't increase survivability like you might want. Venomthropes might help a little (it reduces the SL damage and makes the Tau player burn MLs).

Actually it's HILLARIOUS to be called a none MSU horde player since almost all of my armies run MSU. Beauty of certain armies like nids and orks is that they are cheap enough to run multiple LARGE units. Certain races don't do MSU well. They are too cheap and lack high skills and durability which is why so many of these lists have been failing.

I have to laugh at your example btw. No disrespect intended but come on, you basically proved me correct in regard to durability when 5 serpents firing full on can't kill one brood. That's ~750 points just in transports targeting a single150pt brood and failing to wipe it. Further yet that's the MOST efficient ranged tank in the system, period and it still fails.

Beauty of the prime is he will lead from behind and simply join a new unit if it is getting battered. Your also missing the point where its the baseline for list building. You can still bring support units and MC.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Actually it's HILLARIOUS to be called a none MSU horde player since almost all of my armies run MSU. Beauty of certain armies like nids and orks is that they are cheap enough to run multiple LARGE units. Certain races don't do MSU well. They are too cheap and lack high skills and durability which is why so many of these lists have been failing.

I have to laugh at your example btw. No disrespect intended but come on, you basically proved me correct in regard to durability when 5 serpents firing full on can't kill one brood. That's ~750 points just in transports targeting a single150pt brood and failing to wipe it. Further yet that's the MOST efficient ranged tank in the system, period and it still fails.

Beauty of the prime is he will lead from behind and simply join a new unit if it is getting battered. Your also missing the point where its the baseline for list building. You can still bring support units and MC.

So 800 pts of your army against 600 pts of the opponent's army (it is 600 pts of transports btw). After 4 turns your army would be decimated without being able to to hurt the opposition. This is ignoring the fact that serpent are actually worse than a significant number of other options at killing cheap infantry (say Tau firewarriors with an ethereal). I selected serpent as an example not because they are the most efficient but because they are the most common. The real question is how much will you bunch up so that you can actually move forward past your casualties? Admittedly if you are lucky your opponent didn't take any blast weapons and you can afford to do this but if they did then you are probably looking at 3-4 turns of just trying to get into change range as the opponent shoots your front line of models off the board each time. I think you will need to make us a batrep to prove your idea can work.

Yet another very slow army trying to hide from Tau firepower. So sad and ineffective.

WS with holos is 135 so 675 minimum, with canons your well over 700 so I have no idea where you are getting 600,THEN there's the troop tax you seen to like to ignore. Cheapest way to grab 5 WS is DA units that 75x5=375 +675= 1050.

So in reality it's MUCH more expensive. If you can't fallow that then I'm not going to waste my time explaining it further. It's also not killing 800 points of an army. As you illustrated an entire turns shooting can't even finish a single brood which with any cover plus catalyst reduces your casualty number even more, but I humored you and ignored the fact that only half the WS output ignores cover.

Way to be cheeky but your the one calling my ideas spank so maybe you can put the time in to discredit it or move along and ignore me. At least I am looking for a solution in different places.

Tyranids seem to struggle against Guard as well, as Guard is able to match nids model for model and if Guard is min/maxed correctly can put out an insane number of shots. Literally rolling buckets of dice.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ansacs wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!

The book is wonky I'll give you that. But really people should take the norn prime as it is. He really isn't overpriced for the book he is written into. People REALLY don't understand how crazy it is to have a mini MC IC in a book with units of MC's and massive waves of fearless swarms.
consider this core:
~170- Norn prime (don't have book)
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
180- 30 x Gargs

That leaves you with plenty of point still in 1500-1850 for things that buff and support these gribblies.

My theory; people are justifiably denying this because they spent the last 2 editions buying flyrants, tervigons and a million termigants. Now the better unit is the horm IMO, better IB chart even if Crap hits the fan as you'll stay on that objective and WAY more mobile for the cost. Nobody wants to shlef 75-100 gants to now build 75-100 GAUNTS!

Taudar have crazy firepower but giving them juicy targets is just what they want. Make him waste riptides on cheap gribblies while your primes hide out in them. Each riptide needs to kill almost 2 full broods to recoup cost... never gona happen. Wraithknight is even worse. Trouble with all these dual flyrant lists is the same problem. On paper you have 2 great synapse creatures, except they generally never want to be in range of synapse in order to be affective. So they end up hiding baby sitting units. They are also laughably easy to shoot down without biomancy.

I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.

This is where I don't really understand these horde players who don't do MSU. The proposed broods of 30 horms will take 25 deaths from 5 serpent in a single turn of average shooting. It is even worse from a tau pulse bomb, etc. After 25 casualties you will have trouble just gaining ground from your casualties. After 25 deaths the prime is looking much more exposed. There is also the issue of time constraints (may be a positive to keep the tyranid player on the board as you will never clear 5 turns) and force concentration where that many troops takes up a huge board area.

I am not saying it couldn't work but I think it needs a lot more development as the swarm is not that survivable in modern 40K where cover just doesn't increase survivability like you might want. Venomthropes might help a little (it reduces the SL damage and makes the Tau player burn MLs).

Actually it's HILLARIOUS to be called a none MSU horde player since almost all of my armies run MSU. Beauty of certain armies like nids and orks is that they are cheap enough to run multiple LARGE units. Certain races don't do MSU well. They are too cheap and lack high skills and durability which is why so many of these lists have been failing.

I have to laugh at your example btw. No disrespect intended but come on, you basically proved me correct in regard to durability when 5 serpents firing full on can't kill one brood. That's ~750 points just in transports targeting a single150pt brood and failing to wipe it. Further yet that's the MOST efficient ranged tank in the system, period and it still fails.

Beauty of the prime is he will lead from behind and simply join a new unit if it is getting battered. Your also missing the point where its the baseline for list building. You can still bring support units and MC.

Meanwhile your Flyrant, Crones, Mawlocs and Biovores pound the rest of his army that is exposed. I would gladly trade that many points to absorb that much firepower.

If you take 5+ serpents you will usually not take holo fields as keeping any one alive becomes less important. Holo fields are also a liability in a mirror match between serpent armies. I also left off the DA as they are pretty efficient at killing your horms. With them the list is wave serpent (120 pts) + 5 Dire Avengers (65 pts) = 185 pts x 5 = 925 pts. With them added in you will spend 2 turns getting there and then the 3rd turn the DA + serpent kill ~50 horms in a single turn of shooting. I ignored the troop tax because they are actually quite good against horms (don't forget they have 18" guns and battle focus to run away each turn).

Also I already gave them a 5+ cover save in my calcs (erroneously in my calc for serpent shield actually). I am sorry, without that 5+ the horms take 30 deaths a turn from the serpents.

I don't think you understand where I am going with this. I think your basic idea might be the way to go. A large number of cheap nid units with an IC to provide synapse. Though I am not sure it might not be better to turn a unit into 30 termi and a tervigon to spawn additional units. The problem I see with this is that you need to be extremely efficient in your AV killing with the rest of your list (crones perhaps). You need to toughen the horms somehow if you expect them to survive to reach the opponent (ADL?, venomthrope?, try for catalyst?, void shields?). Each of the solutions to improve the toughness of nids comes with problems and draw backs. This I believe is the biggest obstacle to overcome with your idea.

I really would like to see how your idea works out. I was not being glib though I probably am cheeky by nature. Therefore a batrep would be nice to demonstrate it.

How does Catalyst help Horms against Serpents?

SCP Yeeman wrote:
How does Catalyst help Horms against Serpents?

It doesn't.

I wish stronghold assault was more widely accepted. A void shield generator helps the tiny nids so much.