Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I finally picked up the model for Cypher (or rather I bought it and it'll be here whenever shipping happens) and was planning on making a chosen squad or two to bring with him, utilizing his formation so they'd all have ATSKNF and all that.

How would you rig up the Chosen squad you'd bring Cypher attached to?

For those that haven't seen it, his chosen that can come along with his formation gain ATSKNF but can't take any marks of chaos gods. Therefore the only icon they can bring is the Icon of Vengeance. Other than that, they can be geared the exact same as Chosen in C:CSM. Cypher himself has Infiltrate (which means the squad benefits from it, correct?) and Hit and Run among other skills so the unit would be able to do some silly things in combat.

I am thinking of bringing a full 10 man squad, 5 of them with plasma guns and the Champion with a Power Maul, but that'd be mostly to be silly. I am also thinking of jamming as many power weapons, power fists and lightning claws as I can fit on the squad to go attempt to tie things up and eventually win Assaults seeing as the infiltration should get them close enough I could charge by turn 2, and the ATSKNF helps out Chaos Marines tremendously, AND to utilize Cypher's Hit and Run ability.

I have the following plan - I'll deal with Typhus being Ld 9 without caring.

Cypher. Some Chosen. 4 Plasma, 1 combi-plasma and a power sword. Outflank, roll plasma death and start playing hit and run hell as I feel like. Not a lot is going to want to risk that much plasma being thrown at it in overwatch either.

Hey I just had a thought. If you bought Veterans of the Long War on, say, a Chaos Lord, would his Ld still be 10? Or is that applied before the negatives from Cypher, so it'd still go down to 9?

I figure it's the latter.

It caps at 10. You're only paying points for the Hatred really.

A friend of mine is infiltrating Cypher with 2 squads of Plasma chosen in his current armies. They are devastating alpha-strikers.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Hey I just had a thought. If you bought Veterans of the Long War on, say, a Chaos Lord, would his Ld still be 10? Or is that applied before the negatives from Cypher, so it'd still go down to 9?

I figure it's the latter.

I would think if they are both additive modifiers that the -1 and the +1 would cancel out, there doesn't seem to be a defined order. A related question would be how does VotlW interact with things like Shadow in the Warp that reduce Ld. A Sorcerer can have Ld 10 and take VotlW for +1. If SitW is -3 (i think) does that plus VotLW make it only -2?

A funny sidenote is that special characters are only Ld 10 with VotlW so if the above is true then they could have less Ld than joe schmoe chaos lord at times.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Hey I just had a thought. If you bought Veterans of the Long War on, say, a Chaos Lord, would his Ld still be 10? Or is that applied before the negatives from Cypher, so it'd still go down to 9?

I figure it's the latter.

I would think if they are both additive modifiers that the -1 and the +1 would cancel out, there doesn't seem to be a defined order. A related question would be how does VotlW interact with things like Shadow in the Warp that reduce Ld. A Sorcerer can have Ld 10 and take VotlW for +1. If SitW is -3 (i think) does that plus VotLW make it only -2?

A funny sidenote is that special characters are only Ld 10 with VotlW so if the above is true then they could have less Ld than joe schmoe chaos lord at times.

Tzeentch daemons from Chaos Daemons get a +3Ld on psychic tests that effective neuters the new SitW mechanic, so I imagine by the same vein of logic Cypher's -1LD and VotLW +1LD cancel.

Also - the infiltration conferring is questionable. A number of tournaments have allowed that ruling (IC confers to unit, unit does not confer to IC) but YMMV based on your FLGS. There's arguments for both yes and no.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Hey I just had a thought. If you bought Veterans of the Long War on, say, a Chaos Lord, would his Ld still be 10? Or is that applied before the negatives from Cypher, so it'd still go down to 9?

I figure it's the latter.

I would think if they are both additive modifiers that the -1 and the +1 would cancel out, there doesn't seem to be a defined order. A related question would be how does VotlW interact with things like Shadow in the Warp that reduce Ld. A Sorcerer can have Ld 10 and take VotlW for +1. If SitW is -3 (i think) does that plus VotLW make it only -2?

A funny sidenote is that special characters are only Ld 10 with VotlW so if the above is true then they could have less Ld than joe schmoe chaos lord at times.

Tzeentch daemons from Chaos Daemons get a +3Ld on psychic tests that effective neuters the new SitW mechanic, so I imagine by the same vein of logic Cypher's -1LD and VotLW +1LD cancel.

Also - the infiltration conferring is questionable. A number of tournaments have allowed that ruling (IC confers to unit, unit does not confer to IC) but YMMV based on your FLGS. There's arguments for both yes and no.

There's no question about the Fallen being able to infiltrate, they have the USR as well. It's listed as a USR for the formation.

EDIT: Ahriman or Huron can partner well with Cypher and his Fallen. I'm a fan of Ahriman and 2-3 squads of 1k Sons. You'll be infiltrating Cypher + 3 Chosen squads + 1-3 squads of 1k Sons from Ahriman's Warlord trait

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Also - the infiltration conferring is questionable. A number of tournaments have allowed that ruling (IC confers to unit, unit does not confer to IC) but YMMV based on your FLGS. There's arguments for both yes and no.

I don't have my book on me as I'm at work. Doesn't it specifically say a "unit with a model" in the infiltrate rules, much like it does for Hit and Run?

I thought that was the point of when IC's have infiltrate is to then confer it on the squads they are a part of. Regardless I'll definitely talk to my friends before playing with Cypher to see what they think.

I am kind of glad I thought of the VOTLW thing, though because my biggest issue is I like running a Chaos Sorcerer in terminator armor as my warlord, but psykers with sub-10 leadership are just horribly unreliable for me. It'd allow me to keep him at LD10 so I wouldn't have to sweat him miscasting as often.

andystache wrote:

There's no question about the Fallen being able to infiltrate, they have the USR as well. It's listed as a USR for the formation.

Correct. But then, that's not what I posted about.

If the formation is being fielded all of the Chosen have infiltrate anyway.

SRS - yes, that is the wording. However - the question lies in deployment. The argument against ICs conferring infiltrate is that ICs can only join units after deployment, but infiltrators set up after all other units have deployed. Ergo the infiltrating IC can't join the unit without deploying with it, and if he deploys with it they aren't infiltrated because he'd go down during normal deployments.

Poor wording. But as was stated - the Chosen in the formation all have infiltrate anyway.

EDIT: Ahriman or Huron can partner well with Cypher and his Fallen. I'm a fan of Ahriman and 2-3 squads of 1k Sons. You'll be infiltrating Cypher + 3 Chosen squads + 1-3 squads of 1k Sons from Ahriman's Warlord trait

The only issue I see with this is you have your ML4 psyker with Ld9 who is not allowed to take a spell familiar. Recall he is only Ld 10 already counting VotLW. That's nearly a 50% chance to have at least one perils when casting 4 powers.

I thought ICs were fielded as part of a squad during deployment if you wished. Otherwise, wouldn't that mean you could Boromir the enemy warlord during the first turn if you went first as his guy wouldn't have had a movement phase to then be part of a unit? And wouldn't he then not be able to deploy inside Drop Pods or other dedicated transports along with the squad the IC was partnered with?

Freakin' GW needs to learn how to right rules in a way that's less confusing, or actively update FAQs, because there are so many glaring errors and loopholes it's created a culture among the fans to seek out loopholes to gain unfair advantages on their opponents rather than to play a cinematic, fun game.

 obsidiankatana wrote:


Also - the infiltration conferring is questionable. A number of tournaments have allowed that ruling (IC confers to unit, unit does not confer to IC) but YMMV based on your FLGS. There's arguments for both yes and no.

To be honest the Infiltrate rule has the exact same wording as Stubborn - when a unit with at least one model with. As a result it is safe to assume that is conferred across as Stubborn is to a unit. The issue of course is whether ICs are allowed to be attached units before deployment. Something which was messy with the last round of codices as Space Marines could and Tyranids couldn't (you could stick Space Marine ICs in with drop pod squads but not attach Tyranid Primes to spore pod units). Since I believe they generally are then that solves that.

Ah, one of the advantages the old 5th edition rulebook had over the current rulebook - the special rules which transferred from character to unit and vice versa were marked with an asterisk!

 SRSFACE wrote:
I thought ICs were fielded as part of a squad during deployment if you wished. Otherwise, wouldn't that mean you could Boromir the enemy warlord during the first turn if you went first as his guy wouldn't have had a movement phase to then be part of a unit? And wouldn't he then not be able to deploy inside Drop Pods or other dedicated transports along with the squad the IC was partnered with?

Freakin' GW needs to learn how to right rules in a way that's less confusing, or actively update FAQs, because there are so many glaring errors and loopholes it's created a culture among the fans to seek out loopholes to gain unfair advantages on their opponents rather than to play a cinematic, fun game.

ICs join units during deployment. Units held in reserve (for arrival in drop pods, outflanking, etc) also occurs during deployment. Infiltration occurs after deployment. Therein lies the argument.

JubbJubbz wrote:

EDIT: Ahriman or Huron can partner well with Cypher and his Fallen. I'm a fan of Ahriman and 2-3 squads of 1k Sons. You'll be infiltrating Cypher + 3 Chosen squads + 1-3 squads of 1k Sons from Ahriman's Warlord trait

The only issue I see with this is you have your ML4 psyker with Ld9 who is not allowed to take a spell familiar. Recall he is only Ld 10 already counting VotLW. That's nearly a 50% chance to have at least one perils when casting 4 powers.

First Ld 9 or 10 has no bearing on Perils, that's only snake eyes or box cars. You have a slightly higher chance of failing one of your powers is all. Second there's debate as to whether Ahriman is Ld 10 before or after VotLW. There is no indication that VotLW is included in his profile, he has a stat line and special rules. It can be read that Cypher and VotLW cancel each other out leaving him at Ld 10.

I prefer Ahriman to Huron of the two HQs guaranteed to get Deception because you can infiltrate scoring 1k Sons. This leaves your opponent with lots of targets right at his door step and whatever choice he makes there will be something left with enough dakka and/or choppy to cause problems.

andystache wrote:
There is no indication that VotLW is included in his profile, he has a stat line and special rules. It can be read that Cypher and VotLW cancel each other out leaving him at Ld 10.

I prefer Ahriman to Huron of the two HQs guaranteed to get Deception because you can infiltrate scoring 1k Sons. This leaves your opponent with lots of targets right at his door step and whatever choice he makes there will be something left with enough dakka and/or choppy to cause problems.

It says specifically in the VOTLW rule that any model automatically included with it has it marked in his profile. It's why Chaos Space Marine daemon princes are technically LD8 so they are gimp compared to ones from Daemons.

I wish daemon princes didn't have the rule and could just take VOTLW because then they'd be LD10 which would be so awesome.

@obsidiankatana: Thanks for clearing up what the debate was about. I bet that's something no one has reached a consensus over and would have lots of WAAC TFG cheater calling if put up in YMDC.

I stand corrected. The line about not going over Ld 10 seems a bit ridiculous there, but I suppose GW actually put thought into the rule ahead of time. That being said I'm still a fan of the combo, you're infiltrating lots of pain that has to be dealt with.

I think I'm going to settle on 5 plasma guns with a champion rocking a power maul. First, power mauls are the only power weapons worth taking, and they look cool. The plasma guns should be easy to obtain in huge numbers, too. I think I'm going to order 10 of the Legiones Astartes ones from 30k off Forgeworld, then buy a bunch of Dark Angels upgrade sprues which have enough bits on them to build 5 robed dudes per, rig up at least 10 guys with plasma guns and another 10 guys to max out the squads. Best part is I could run them as Dark Angels company veterans, too! Huzzah!

Hate to bump my own thread but I also noticed something else.

The way "Shrouded" is worded says "if a unit containing a model that has". Therefore, it confers to the whole sqaud if a single guy has it, which Cypher does.

I think this definitely cements the plan to bring a horde of plasma guns in his squad, rather than try to build something close combat oriented.