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 Blacksails wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

but you just proved me right by highlighting that SPACE MARINES is the best sellng army. Doesn't matter if it is SW or BA or BT they are all SM. Thank you for proving me right

Well, if lump them all in, let's just lump all the Xenos together.

Do what you want.

My point was that SM as a whole are the overwhelming popular choice for players. You proved that fact correct. End of debate

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
How many individual armies of SM are there as a product line?

Let's count the individual product lines: Vanilla, BA, BT (with the Upgrade Pack), Chaos, DA, GK, and SW.

That's 7 armies. If we assume that these armies sell in equal amounts, and we take the previously-posted sales numbers, we learn that each individual army of Space Marines accounts for 1.7% of GW's 40K sales. That puts them below the average of the Xenos races, actually, and only become the majority of sales if you lump all 7 of these armies into 1 category.

This is "creative math" used to prove a point (that SM are the best-selling faction) and provides them an advantage that no other faction in the game has (that is, the ability to build 2000 different armies out of 7 books). However, if we want to compare an individual group, like Vanilla Space Marines, we see that they are (mathematically) on par with the Xenos factions, noted as all being 2% of sales volume, and all sell more or less equally, at the time the data was published.

Now... prove me wrong.

but you just proved me right by highlighting that SPACE MARINES is the best sellng army. Doesn't matter if it is SW or BA or BT they are all SM. Thank you for proving me right

No, what I did was illustrate the fact that there are 3 kinds of lies in the world: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.

Statistically speaking, the SM are the top-selling army.

But... that is with them all together, they have 12% of sales.

Then we compare them to "All Armies that are not SM", then they are the lesser faction (assuming 2% each, we have AS, IG, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Daemon, Necron, Tyranid, Ork) totalling the Non-SM Army sales of 18%.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

but you just proved me right by highlighting that SPACE MARINES is the best sellng army. Doesn't matter if it is SW or BA or BT they are all SM. Thank you for proving me right

Well, if lump them all in, let's just lump all the Xenos together.

Do what you want.

My point was that SM as a whole are the overwhelming popular choice for players. You proved that fact correct. End of debate

Well if we're lumping, then he didnt prove it as you need to compare total marines to total xenos.

Thats not how debates work. And the guy above me with the numbers proves counter to your point

Yeah, but he said 'End of debate', so he had us there.

I mean, he must be right if he claims to be right.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

but you just proved me right by highlighting that SPACE MARINES is the best sellng army. Doesn't matter if it is SW or BA or BT they are all SM. Thank you for proving me right

Well, if lump them all in, let's just lump all the Xenos together.

Do what you want.

My point was that SM as a whole are the overwhelming popular choice for players. You proved that fact correct. End of debate

Well if we're lumping, then he didnt prove it as you need to compare total marines to total xenos.

Thats not how debates work. Nor have there actually been any numbers posted other than "a couple guys said"

No we don't......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
Yeah, but he said 'End of debate', so he had us there.

I mean, he must be right if he claims to be right.

Read the first comment in the thread where I say SM as a whole then read the post where the poster proved me correct by highlighting SM as a whole are the most popular end of debate I was proved right.

Nice try tho

champagne_socialist wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

but you just proved me right by highlighting that SPACE MARINES is the best sellng army. Doesn't matter if it is SW or BA or BT they are all SM. Thank you for proving me right

Well, if lump them all in, let's just lump all the Xenos together.

Do what you want.

My point was that SM as a whole are the overwhelming popular choice for players. You proved that fact correct. End of debate

Well if we're lumping, then he didnt prove it as you need to compare total marines to total xenos.

Thats not how debates work. Nor have there actually been any numbers posted other than "a couple guys said"

No we don't......

Oh well if we're just going to be dishonest and compare total of all marine variant sales to individual Xenos then orcs/tyranids sell more cause their model count is higher and fluff says so.

champagne_socialist wrote:

Read the first comment in the thread where I say SM as a whole then read the post where the poster proved me correct by highlighting SM as a whole are the most popular end of debate I was proved right.

Nice try tho

12% is greater than 18%?

 Psienesis wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
How many individual armies of SM are there as a product line?

Let's count the individual product lines: Vanilla, BA, BT (with the Upgrade Pack), Chaos, DA, GK, and SW.

That's 7 armies. If we assume that these armies sell in equal amounts, and we take the previously-posted sales numbers, we learn that each individual army of Space Marines accounts for 1.7% of GW's 40K sales. That puts them below the average of the Xenos races, actually, and only become the majority of sales if you lump all 7 of these armies into 1 category.

This is "creative math" used to prove a point (that SM are the best-selling faction) and provides them an advantage that no other faction in the game has (that is, the ability to build 2000 different armies out of 7 books). However, if we want to compare an individual group, like Vanilla Space Marines, we see that they are (mathematically) on par with the Xenos factions, noted as all being 2% of sales volume, and all sell more or less equally, at the time the data was published.

Now... prove me wrong.

but you just proved me right by highlighting that SPACE MARINES is the best sellng army. Doesn't matter if it is SW or BA or BT they are all SM. Thank you for proving me right

No, what I did was illustrate the fact that there are 3 kinds of lies in the world: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.

Statistically speaking, the SM are the top-selling army.

But... that is with them all together, they have 12% of sales.

Then we compare them to "All Armies that are not SM", then they are the lesser faction (assuming 2% each, we have AS, IG, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Daemon, Necron, Tyranid, Ork) totalling the Non-SM Army sales of 18%.

Yes with them all together which was my point, my point was not BA are the most popular army or BT or DA etc it was SM. Now you proved me correct by saying all SM are the most popular so there is no more need to debate.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
How many individual armies of SM are there as a product line?

Let's count the individual product lines: Vanilla, BA, BT (with the Upgrade Pack), Chaos, DA, GK, and SW.

That's 7 armies. If we assume that these armies sell in equal amounts, and we take the previously-posted sales numbers, we learn that each individual army of Space Marines accounts for 1.7% of GW's 40K sales. That puts them below the average of the Xenos races, actually, and only become the majority of sales if you lump all 7 of these armies into 1 category.

This is "creative math" used to prove a point (that SM are the best-selling faction) and provides them an advantage that no other faction in the game has (that is, the ability to build 2000 different armies out of 7 books). However, if we want to compare an individual group, like Vanilla Space Marines, we see that they are (mathematically) on par with the Xenos factions, noted as all being 2% of sales volume, and all sell more or less equally, at the time the data was published.

Now... prove me wrong.

but you just proved me right by highlighting that SPACE MARINES is the best sellng army. Doesn't matter if it is SW or BA or BT they are all SM. Thank you for proving me right

No, what I did was illustrate the fact that there are 3 kinds of lies in the world: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.

Statistically speaking, the SM are the top-selling army.

But... that is with them all together, they have 12% of sales.

Then we compare them to "All Armies that are not SM", then they are the lesser faction (assuming 2% each, we have AS, IG, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Daemon, Necron, Tyranid, Ork) totalling the Non-SM Army sales of 18%.

Yes with them all together which was my point, my point was not BA are the most popular army or BT or DA etc it was SM. Now you proved me correct by saying all SM are the most popular so there is no more need to debate.

Are you deliberately ignoring the 18% non-SM being greater than the 12% SM?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

but you just proved me right by highlighting that SPACE MARINES is the best sellng army. Doesn't matter if it is SW or BA or BT they are all SM. Thank you for proving me right

Well, if lump them all in, let's just lump all the Xenos together.

Do what you want.

My point was that SM as a whole are the overwhelming popular choice for players. You proved that fact correct. End of debate

Well if we're lumping, then he didnt prove it as you need to compare total marines to total xenos.

Thats not how debates work. Nor have there actually been any numbers posted other than "a couple guys said"

No we don't......

Oh well if we're just going to be dishonest and compare total of all marine variant sales to individual Xenos then orcs/tyranids sell more cause their model count is higher and fluff says so.

champagne_socialist wrote:

Read the first comment in the thread where I say SM as a whole then read the post where the poster proved me correct by highlighting SM as a whole are the most popular end of debate I was proved right.

Nice try tho

12% is greater than 18%?

your argument is falling apart by the second. But keep trying though.

Keep in mind those numbers are almost 2 years old, and were off the cuff by a former employee. He also doesn't clarify what he means by Marine books, since there are some armies that could get rolled in there (like Grey Knights)

Since then, the following books came out:
CSM & Black Legion
Eldar & Iyanden
Tau Empire & Farsight Enclaves
Dark Angels
Space Marines

Of these, two were probably the most popular xenos books, and both got incredible power upgrades.

Meanwhile the SM codex was a minor bump in power (which left them as still mediocre), had another codex rolled into it, and both the DA and CSM codices are considered two of the weakest books in 6th.

This is why I'm honestly curious if the statement "Marines sell more than other armies" was still actually true.

nobody wrote:
Keep in mind those numbers are almost 2 years old, and were off the cuff by a former employee. He also doesn't clarify what he means by Marine books, since there are some armies that could get rolled in there (like Grey Knights)

Since then, the following books came out:
CSM & Black Legion
Eldar & Iyanden
Tau Empire & Farsight Enclaves
Dark Angels
Space Marines

Of these, two were probably the most popular xenos books, and both got incredible power upgrades.

Meanwhile the SM codex was a minor bump in power (which left them as still mediocre), had another codex rolled into it, and both the DA and CSM codices are considered two of the weakest books in 6th.

This is why I'm honestly curious if the statement "Marines sell more than other armies" was still actually true.

Just look at the range of SM products available and the fact that most GW stores only stock limited models of each army but always seem to have their focus on SM. They only stock what they can sell.

That's anecdotal, and has no evidence to support it.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's anecdotal, and has no evidence to support it.

Well the only evidence we have supports my view that SM are the most popular and moose sellable army.

Only if you choose to crunch the numbers that way. I already demonstrated how I can make that statement false, using the exact same numbers, just crunched in a slightly different way.

Again, lies, damn lies, and statistics.

On one side, we have All Armies That Are Space Marines (AATASM). They are 12% of total sales.

To keep this competition fair, we compare them to All Armies That Are Not Space Marines (AATANSM). They're 18% of total sales.

Therefore, SM are not the best-selling army.

***

To actually find a fair comparison of numbers, we would not only need current sales data from GW (which we aren't going to get), we are going to need that broken down by army-type (which they don't provide), and we would then need to fairly compare each product line as separate entities, not permit one side to be comprised of 7 different product lines and then compare that to the remaining individual product lines. That is just bad science, really.

I know it's a commonly-repeated thing in the fandom... and for all I know, it might be true... but we don't have any good evidence outside the anecdotal (or that which is shoehorned in to providing the evidence to support the claim, which can as easily be shoehorned to not support it) to prove it.

 Psienesis wrote:
Only if you choose to crunch the numbers that way. I already demonstrated how I can make that statement false, using the exact same numbers, just crunched in a slightly different way.

Again, lies, damn lies, and statistics.

On one side, we have All Armies That Are Space Marines (AATASM). They are 12% of total sales.

To keep this competition fair, we compare them to All Armies That Are Not Space Marines (AATANSM). They're 18% of total sales.

Therefore, SM are not the best-selling army.

***

To actually find a fair comparison of numbers, we would not only need current sales data from GW (which we aren't going to get), we are going to need that broken down by army-type (which they don't provide), and we would then need to fairly compare each product line as separate entities, not permit one side to be comprised of 7 different product lines and then compare that to the remaining individual product lines. That is just bad science, really.

I know it's a commonly-repeated thing in the fandom... and for all I know, it might be true... but we don't have any good evidence outside the anecdotal (or that which is shoehorned in to providing the evidence to support the claim, which can as easily be shoehorned to not support it) to prove it.

No the numbers speak for themselves and that is SM are the most popular. SM on their own nearly outsell all the other armies combined. SM are the most popular. The debate is over the facts speak for themselves. I don't want to spend my whole friday debating with you on this topic so I will just copy and paste the following from now on

SM outsell all other armies by 6-1. SM nearly outsell all other armies when they are combined.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Only if you choose to crunch the numbers that way. I already demonstrated how I can make that statement false, using the exact same numbers, just crunched in a slightly different way.

Again, lies, damn lies, and statistics.

On one side, we have All Armies That Are Space Marines (AATASM). They are 12% of total sales.

To keep this competition fair, we compare them to All Armies That Are Not Space Marines (AATANSM). They're 18% of total sales.

Therefore, SM are not the best-selling army.

***

To actually find a fair comparison of numbers, we would not only need current sales data from GW (which we aren't going to get), we are going to need that broken down by army-type (which they don't provide), and we would then need to fairly compare each product line as separate entities, not permit one side to be comprised of 7 different product lines and then compare that to the remaining individual product lines. That is just bad science, really.

I know it's a commonly-repeated thing in the fandom... and for all I know, it might be true... but we don't have any good evidence outside the anecdotal (or that which is shoehorned in to providing the evidence to support the claim, which can as easily be shoehorned to not support it) to prove it.

No the numbers speak for themselves and that is SM are the most popular. SM on their own nearly outsell all the other armies combined. SM are the most popular. The debate is over the facts speak for themselves. I don't want to spend my whole friday debating with you on this topic so I will just copy and paste the following from now on

SM outsell all other armies by 6-1. SM nearly outsell all other armies when they are combined.

Can you read what you're writing? "I won't prove myself right, so I'm just going to spam this over and over."

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Only if you choose to crunch the numbers that way. I already demonstrated how I can make that statement false, using the exact same numbers, just crunched in a slightly different way.

Again, lies, damn lies, and statistics.

On one side, we have All Armies That Are Space Marines (AATASM). They are 12% of total sales.

To keep this competition fair, we compare them to All Armies That Are Not Space Marines (AATANSM). They're 18% of total sales.

Therefore, SM are not the best-selling army.

***

To actually find a fair comparison of numbers, we would not only need current sales data from GW (which we aren't going to get), we are going to need that broken down by army-type (which they don't provide), and we would then need to fairly compare each product line as separate entities, not permit one side to be comprised of 7 different product lines and then compare that to the remaining individual product lines. That is just bad science, really.

I know it's a commonly-repeated thing in the fandom... and for all I know, it might be true... but we don't have any good evidence outside the anecdotal (or that which is shoehorned in to providing the evidence to support the claim, which can as easily be shoehorned to not support it) to prove it.

No the numbers speak for themselves and that is SM are the most popular. SM on their own nearly outsell all the other armies combined. SM are the most popular. The debate is over the facts speak for themselves. I don't want to spend my whole friday debating with you on this topic so I will just copy and paste the following from now on

SM outsell all other armies by 6-1. SM nearly outsell all other armies when they are combined.

Can you read what you're writing? "I won't prove myself right, so I'm just going to spam this over and over."

SM outsell all other armies by 6-1 as proven by the lnk earlier in the thread. I have proven myself right

champagne_socialist wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Only if you choose to crunch the numbers that way. I already demonstrated how I can make that statement false, using the exact same numbers, just crunched in a slightly different way.

Again, lies, damn lies, and statistics.

On one side, we have All Armies That Are Space Marines (AATASM). They are 12% of total sales.

To keep this competition fair, we compare them to All Armies That Are Not Space Marines (AATANSM). They're 18% of total sales.

Therefore, SM are not the best-selling army.

***

To actually find a fair comparison of numbers, we would not only need current sales data from GW (which we aren't going to get), we are going to need that broken down by army-type (which they don't provide), and we would then need to fairly compare each product line as separate entities, not permit one side to be comprised of 7 different product lines and then compare that to the remaining individual product lines. That is just bad science, really.

I know it's a commonly-repeated thing in the fandom... and for all I know, it might be true... but we don't have any good evidence outside the anecdotal (or that which is shoehorned in to providing the evidence to support the claim, which can as easily be shoehorned to not support it) to prove it.

No the numbers speak for themselves and that is SM are the most popular. SM on their own nearly outsell all the other armies combined. SM are the most popular. The debate is over the facts speak for themselves. I don't want to spend my whole friday debating with you on this topic so I will just copy and paste the following from now on

SM outsell all other armies by 6-1. SM nearly outsell all other armies when they are combined.

Can you read what you're writing? "I won't prove myself right, so I'm just going to spam this over and over."

SM outsell all other armies by 6-1 as proven by the lnk earlier in the thread. I have proven myself right

You keep repeating that if that's what you want to believe. It's pretty obvious that we can't explain to you why you're wrong.

The ol 'If I repeat it enough times it must be true"

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Only if you choose to crunch the numbers that way. I already demonstrated how I can make that statement false, using the exact same numbers, just crunched in a slightly different way.

Again, lies, damn lies, and statistics.

On one side, we have All Armies That Are Space Marines (AATASM). They are 12% of total sales.

To keep this competition fair, we compare them to All Armies That Are Not Space Marines (AATANSM). They're 18% of total sales.

Therefore, SM are not the best-selling army.

***

To actually find a fair comparison of numbers, we would not only need current sales data from GW (which we aren't going to get), we are going to need that broken down by army-type (which they don't provide), and we would then need to fairly compare each product line as separate entities, not permit one side to be comprised of 7 different product lines and then compare that to the remaining individual product lines. That is just bad science, really.

I know it's a commonly-repeated thing in the fandom... and for all I know, it might be true... but we don't have any good evidence outside the anecdotal (or that which is shoehorned in to providing the evidence to support the claim, which can as easily be shoehorned to not support it) to prove it.

No the numbers speak for themselves and that is SM are the most popular. SM on their own nearly outsell all the other armies combined. SM are the most popular. The debate is over the facts speak for themselves. I don't want to spend my whole friday debating with you on this topic so I will just copy and paste the following from now on

SM outsell all other armies by 6-1. SM nearly outsell all other armies when they are combined.

Can you read what you're writing? "I won't prove myself right, so I'm just going to spam this over and over."

SM outsell all other armies by 6-1 as proven by the lnk earlier in the thread. I have proven myself right

You keep repeating that if that's what you want to believe. It's pretty obvious that we can't explain to you why you're wrong.

i am not wrong, I am quoting an external source whioch said that

SM outsell all other armies by 6-1

Can we close this circle jerk already? Three pages of two people arguing over something neither of whom can actually prove with any certainly ...

I haven't seen someone argue so poorly in the longest time.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I haven't seen someone argue so poorly in the longest time.

you should probably get out more then

This whole roundabout with double standards and fingers in ears going "lalalala I can't hear you I'm right you're wrong lalalalala!" Is hurting my head. This is a poor response and horrid arguing coming out of champagne_socialist. You're probably going to give me the same copy/paste waste of time, but the fact of the matter is is that you've decided it's alright to snowball multiple factions together under one heading (SM) and left the rest seperate (anything but SM). It really isn't a fair or accurate way of comparing them. If you don't wish to spend your friday arguing here, have an open mind and try to see things in another light. This childish stubbornness will go nowhere. Personally, I don't really care if SM (clustered togetheror not) are the best sellers, this logical fallacy is just bewildering.

I disagree with the sentiment that CSM fall into the category of the SM armies. There are so many differences between the two. Especially the way people view the CSM codex at the moment as being a waste of time.
Unless you collect a Black Legion army with no Princes, Spawns, cultists then I agree to some extent, then they are just SM's with spikey bitz on.

Increase the power level of marines and increase the point cost. Marine players will be happy they get movie marines but the fact they only get to put 20 models on the board makes other armies seem more varied and attractive to most people

Hey I like marines (I play CSM as one of my three mains and am building a SM army) and honestly movie marines would make me quit my army xD)

Entrenched mentalities are dangerous things.

Anyway:

I think they need to increase the number of space marines players. Even if you count all the loyalists together around my area, they are still outnumbered by Xenos armies. I know 6 people who play Tau, 3 who play Eldar, 2 who play Chaos Daemons, 4 with Chaos Space marines, 2 with Necron, 3 with Nids. I know maybe like 9 people who have space marine armies and only TWO of them play Codex Astartes marines. Everyone else is a divergent chapter.

Tau are incredibly popular in our area. We have a lot of anime lovers in our playing circle, and they all seemed to gravitate toward Tau or Nids. It's pretty frustrating to battle a riptide or two without fail week and and week out.

Thanks for specifying them as 'Loyalist Marines' SRSFACE, a whole lot different than traitors.

I may just be slightly peeved as I just changed from BA to a mono Nurgle CSM list.

On a side note you mention two riptides, the last (I mean last :( ) White Dwarf features 3 riptides in its batrep. Sure it was a no troops game, but I doubt it would have been a draw without some interference...

 phayze wrote:
Thanks for specifying them as 'Loyalist Marines' SRSFACE, a whole lot different than traitors.

I may just be slightly peeved as I just changed from BA to a mono Nurgle CSM list.

On a side note you mention two riptides, the last (I mean last :( ) White Dwarf features 3 riptides in its batrep. Sure it was a no troops game, but I doubt it would have been a draw without some interference...

It was rigged, and it was rather blatantly obvious.