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Ah the DA, so fluffy, such an awesome concept, so... ok well really comparatively to the other CSM HQ options he's not that great. But hey I play a Word Bearers army and by the false Emporer I'm bound and determined to field this guy. So here's the question: How would you guys build this HQ up? What gear? What options? Field him with a specific squad to make better use of him? I'll start with a the builds I currently use.

DA, Plasma Pistolx2 MoN/MoT/MoS based on my mood and who I'm fighting (they all cost the same points) and if I have points to spare I'll get a combat familiar.
Why: First and foremost when I read the gunslinger rule I thought to myself "Why yes, yes I think I will" But also because this actually makes him a threat to termies and the tougher things on the field. Honestly the power maul is kool but not against the 5 SM players I'm up against, AP 4 just doesn't cut it. Then of course there's the IG player and his 10-million tanks. Next is the marks, not too expensive and a good way to tailor him to certain play styles of tactics. Lastly is the combat familiar. On the surface the 2 extra STR 4 attacks don't sound that great but given that now that he's a gunslinger and only has STR 4 AP - attacks it's just a good way to stack quantity over quality. Coupled with zealot and he isn't a slouch in CC. As for CC, he's got 2 wounds and I 4 with a locked 3+ save, even with his power maul he wouldn't stand up too great to some of the CC powerhouse HQ options out there (his SoC really does help though). So since I'm trying to avoid CC going gunslinger just made sense.

Currently I am trying him out in different squads (chaos cultists, chose with PG) and seeing where he fits in best. All in all though he's turned out to be an adequate model on the field even if he is overpriced for what he does, but I don't believe he is ridiculously overpriced.

Next build!

DA, Burning brand of Skalathrax, MoN/MoT/MoS
Why: Look at the stats on that flamer! STR 4 (meh) AP 3! with Torrent and Soul Blaze! You want to mess up your opponents day sitting in cover or how about tear up that stupid SM squad? Well look no further. This once again keeps your squishy DA out of CC and makes him a real threat to almost any infantry on the board. This is a real troll build I like to hide in a rhino too. Once again I'm currently running this build with multiple escort options to see where he fits in best.

QQ moment please. Oh why couldn't they word it so that Beseech the Dark Gods affected units with the Gift of Mutation?! or better yet just make that rule table-wide rather than just the unit he is attached to? Those would be great ways to justify the points on this guy.

Anyways there's my two builds so I'd like to see yours! And please don't just post "Not worth, take Chaos Lord instead". I've heard it, we've all heard it we get it he's not great for tourney play or anything like that. Let's keep this thread creative and filled with lots of ways we can make use of this fluffy and in my opinion good looking model (of course I chopped his head off and gave him a helmet because in war...safety first).

I read a bat rep with a 1500pt army running
-DA w/Black Mace in a squad of 35 cultists with flamers, autoguns
-2x 10 CSM w/2 plasma, rhino w/dirge caster
-Lev 3 Sorc aiming for telepathy/invisibility
-Maulerfiend
-2x 2 nurgle oblits
-Baledrake

Totally crushed his enemy, I think it was ultramarines. The black mace enables the DA to destroy most things in CC by drowning them in wounds, and since he always challenges it helps kill a couple extra guys in the enemy squad thanks to the toughness curse. This way he gets to reroll his own boons which he should be earning plenty of. The cultists are there for an ablative shield to ensure he gets across the board, and with their auto guns they're at least forcing saves on enemy models.

I've altered the list for my use, taking out one rhino with CSM and the Sorc in favour of Be'lakor for guaranteed invisibility and all his other awesomeness.

In my very first build when I got my dex I initially gave him the black mace, then switched to my other builds once I decided he wasnt as good in CC as almost any other HQ. Using it to get extra wounds out there on a forced challenge is actually a great idea. For fluff reasons cultists are a great addition and it essentially makes him a 37 wound model lol (barring called shots, snipers and challenges). I'm surprised you put the points into autoguns, most people just leave cutlists naked as they are just there to die anyways. How has your success been with their shooting? Is the 24" range atacks worthwhile or would they be better off with the +1 attack in CC? Because of the DA zealot rule that could be a pretty nasty charge.

I also use a Word Bearers army and i insist on using him. He always does okay but he has a couple of issues you can get around.
First off he needs to be a secondary threat, take the heat off him with a FMC and an aggressive army.
I try to find points for the black mace but as ive already paid for a power mace i only give it him at 1500 or more.
Having paid for hatred i always try to use it with CSM units to negate their poor LD and from a land raider if possible so he can pick his fights.
With T4 and 2 wounds he is fragile but i avoid MoN as I find his I4 is just too slow so the mark of slaanesh is good, otherwise he can get easily killed in a challenge.
Speaking of which, he needs a champion bodyguard to help with unfavourable match ups and is the only time you can have a PF champion without being forced to throw him into a challenge. You can also avoid the challenge with the DA and kill hordes.

I Run: Dark Apostle, Mark of Slaanesh (optional Black Mace) 120/165
In a CSM unit with a PF champion.

37 wounds with a 2+ look out sir vs the called shots and snipers, I'll still take it.
Autoguns are hilarious if you can be bothered. Yes, I usually prefer to run cultists naked since they just die anyway. But with this list there are enough other threats ripping down the road into the enemy's teeth that
A- they don't usually bother shooting at cultists, and
B- if they do shoot cultists it's still only 5pts/model, you can just laugh it off.
But getting 32-64 shots still forces people to take saves and lose models. It's how IG operate, why can't we use it? I've used it to drop half the models out of terminator squads before they charged into my flamethrower Wall of Death before. Hilarity ensues. If nothing else it makes their overwatch scarier.

Edit: I will still state that it's almost points you're throwing away. 'Cause they're cultists. But where else am I going to fit 32pts in this list anyway? And if they're all invisible, suddenly opponents panic and tend to waste even more ammo shooting at them. Messing with target priority to the point people bother shooting cultists is potentially game-winning.
And as garbage as cultists are, I've had a squad of 10 cultists with pistols and a flamethrower break and sweep the squad of 10 ork boys that charged them.

I had long posulated on how to run one of them in the silliest manner possible and I figured I'd do something like run a Chaos Spartan Assault Tank off Forgeworld and bring the hordiest horde of all hordes inside. The thing has a 25 model carry capacity. You could bring a 20-man blob of any of the units you can bring 20-man blobs of all kitted up for melee. I'd probably go Noise Marines with an Icon of Excess, or Nurgle-marked CSM, or Plague Marines if I was feeling really spendy.

You'd have 4 carry capacity left over, which means you can throw in another HQ of your choosing, and you could kit it out any way that'd still allow you to bring him on a transport. My vote would be on a nurgle Sorcerer on a Palanquin, or a Terminator Slaaneshi dude rocking at least one Lightning Claw and whatever else you want to throw on him. Possibly the Quicksilver Blade if you want to roll Black Legion rules so he'd be I6 with a bajillion attacks.

I realize that it immediately becomes priority target numero uno against every last army out there, but who cares? Imagining an entire legion horde pouring out of a Spartan all with Feel No Pain and Rerolls and all that fun stuff, would just be epic to see happen.

Some really great ideas here guys thanks for contributing! I'm thinking my next matchup I'm gunna try the cultist blob and try the autoguns on them, I know it was one of my sobbing moments when I realized that an ork dakka army will always outshoot my CSM. It really doesn't matter how bad the rools you need are if you got a bajillion of em!

Yeah my DA is never priority #1 for my opponents, they know he's not going to clean-up the table but in any mission where the warlord is worth extra they will point things at him. To be honest though I'm ok with that since they are ignoring my other units that can really hurt back. Always satisfying to trade warlord kills just to find out my opponents warlord was still worth so much more than my DA

I'm liking MoS more and more in my armies nowadays too, even MoS CSM squad with VotLW will ruin a SM players day real fast loving that combo lately.

SRSFACE that does sound like a deadly force. Huge points sink and a big fire magnet but it'd kill whatever it breathes on Maybe couple it with some MSU and watch the enemy pour fire into the big scary unit and ignore the small fries on the table while they acquire juicy targets and snag objectives!

Anyone else thought of using the DA in larger games as a super expensive piece of wargear to allow a terminator lord warlord chaos boon rerolls? I'm thinking if the points allow take a Chaos lord in termie, DA pretty much naked and then either cultist blob to soak up shots or some MoN/MoT CSM to soak up fire. Kit your termie lord to win duels and watch your opponent either pour fire into the squad or run his juicy targets away from your kill-squad in fear. Any credibility to this?

On a side note, re-rolling the chaos boon in my last match saved me a lot of heartache. Rolled up poorly and my DA was going to turn into a chaos spawn. As I was pulling out the model I remembered "oh wait I get to re-roll this! So I re-rolled and he turned into a Daemon prince instead. The look on my opponents face was priceless. Ask of the Chaos gods and Thou Shalt Receive!

I like DA with a max blob of cultists (naked of course) Every 4 autoguns is an extra cultist, and they've destroyed some pretty decent units in CC - the most recent being tooled up Harlequin squad.

MarsNZ wrote:
I like DA with a max blob of cultists (naked of course) Every 4 autoguns is an extra cultist, and they've destroyed some pretty decent units in CC - the most recent being tooled up Harlequin squad.

Yeah some times all you gotta rely on is the massive number of dice you can throw in your enemies face! I have yet to run a full 35 blob but one day I will, I'm thinking of even doing the 70 model double blob just for giggles. keep the DA within demagogue range and laugh hysterically!

I think the cultist blob is the best home for the DA. All of the marks except Khorne help you win challenges, and Mon/Mot keep you alive against everything. The goal is to keep the DA alive, but not break the bank. MoS to help go first, MoN to not be instagibbed by S8(weaker in a cultist blob, as you are majority T3) and MoT to bolster your invul save.

DA+mark in a full cultist blob is threatening enough. The mace allows you to pile on high S attacks, hoping to break through power armor or TDA. Combat famaliar is OK, and gifts never go wrong on a warlord. The black mace is a lot for such a weak model to bear, so best to go cheap and go killy, while using the support abilities of the apostle to max effect.

I used apostle in fluffy low-point games. The lists are FAR from optimised but they're for the plot.

1250 pts
-Apostle devoted to Tzeench, gift of mutation
-Tzeench sorcerror, gift of mutation
-25+ barebones cultists the number depends on the ammount of other stuff i take
-9 csm with 2 plazmaguns and a champion with combi-melta + gift of mutation in a rhino with havok launcher
-6+ thousand sons with their sorc leader taking meltabombs and gift of mutation in a rhino with havok launcher, number also depends on points
-9 possessed with possessed champion taking 2 gifts of mutation

The idea is that a bunch of sell-souls (cultists) inspired by a charismatic leader (apostle) were just a bunch of Tzeench-worshippers - an elitist's manipulative cult. However, they were contacted by an aspiring 1000 son's sorcerror that had his own plans and needed some sort of striking force either for distraction or something cunning like that. He allready managed to get 'allied' with some chaos space marines, however their combined forces were too low to acomplish his goals. When he discovered a bunch of cultists devoted to Tzeench he saw a great opportunity. Why not help them get the god's blessing they lusted? So with a help of his knowledge, dark sorcerry and an apostle's superior oratory, cultists gladly exposed themselves to becoming daemon-hosts. Sure, many died in process, that's why there are so few remaining. Not only that, but they were distracted by force X (current enemy).

Sometimes i take more cultists, sometimes more rubrics.
Gifts are more for fun and are very unreliable. But sometimes you get something like 2+ armor on a sorc or shrowded on possessed. However, there are many occasions when you get nothing for 60 points. Or something like +1 ini on a model with power axe.
And this list somehow managed to win way more ballanced lists like necrons with a c'tan shard and night-scythe, tau with a forgeworld rapetide that fires 4 pieplates per turn and dark angels with a venerable landraider redeemer. In a game vs crons - apostle downed C'Tan shard in a challenge thanks to the ammount of rerolls provided by cultists. In a game vs DA, csm champ got +1 bs as a gift and rolled a 2 to-hit a landraider with his combi-melta kabooking it with a single shot! Even venerable reroll din't save it. I think Tzeench was watching.

Ofc, i don't play vs taudar and such boring things with this list. Fluffy lists for fun games.

I deploy apostle with sorc and possessed to get some rerolls on gifts of mutation at gamestart. Than depending on what's my plan i either run him with possessed or join cultists.

If going somewhat more competitive - i see him good in a landraider accompanied by regular marines with cc weapons. Or slaanesh marines with a fnp icon. Don't pick on targets good in mellee unless it's desperately needed strategically. Though, they can down most things they encounter in mellee with that to-hit rerolls and are really good with fearless.

However, i think that apostle's designed to be amidst a footslogging horde with his ld10 bauble. It's not his fault footslogas are so bad in 6-th.

I always run at least one mob of 30 cultists, and lately have been running 2 squads of 30. My autogun squad usually performs much better, but they're both a lot of fun.

I have tried DA with MoT in cultist blob,its ok and he can spend forever in a challenge if he needs to (3++ with community support rerolls).

Next time though I'd take him with MoK and AoBF so he actually has AP2 (and gets at least 1 turn swinging it becaude cultist champ can challenge)

The other option I considered was abaddon, 3 oblits and a da in a land raider (fun fun). I've done it without da but with nobody (other than abaddon) to accept challenge, he got screwed by atsknf

MoT, Sig, BM, Airmans book to make himlv 1 Pycher

 koooaei wrote:
I deploy apostle with sorc and possessed to get some rerolls on gifts of mutation at gamestart. Than depending on what's my plan i either run him with possessed or join cultists.

If I'm not mistaken you can't use the DA's ability to re-roll chaos boons on gift of mutation as the RAW do not allow. Gift of mutation specifies that you roll on the chaos boon table prior to deployment and the Beseech the dark gods rule states you re-roll chaos boon table results only after deployment. It's one of my gripe points concerning the DA. However if all you do is causal, fun fluffy games then by all means have at it cause if your opponent doesn't mind then its legal

MoT is quickly becoming one of my favourite marks with the DA because a 3++ sounds just awesome. It'd be sweet if the DA had a special rule that allowed him to take multiple marks, cause you know, he's devout and prays a lot and stuff lol.

To do the option with Abaddon and three oblits wouldn't it be better to take 3 mutilators as they are more CC focused?

By ahriman's book feindus maximus do you mean the scrolls of magnus? to my knowledge that's the only way to make him a psyker. Though now that you have mentioned it I do like the idea of a psychic DA, since I would take MoT anyways it could be worthwhile, thought the S3 AP1 hit does sacre me and the fact you can't take a primaris power is a little disheartening. It's a risk taking the scrolls for sure but I think it could catch some people off-guard

Great ideas here guys, I definitely need to run A LOT more matches to try out all these ideas cause they sound too fun! Keep em coming.

The Dark Apostle is not worth it outside of fluffy lists. He just simply isn't worth it when a sorcerer has the same statline and comes in at 20 points cheaper with the same loadout, with arguably better abilities and army support.

If I recall correctly, does the Dark Apostle gives Ld 10 to every unit with 6 inches? With that in mind you could also charge up another cultist squad next to the Dark Apostle's unit.

3 oblits are better than 3 mutilators because you can rapid fire plasma / heavy flamers before charging. The bonus of having lightning claws and +1 attack isn't enough to outweigh the oblits benefits. Also you can open a transport with 3 multi melta and charge the occupants

herpguy wrote:The Dark Apostle is not worth it outside of fluffy lists. He just simply isn't worth it when a sorcerer has the same statline and comes in at 20 points cheaper with the same loadout, with arguably better abilities and army support.

I'm pretty sure everyone here realizes that the DA isn't the best choice for almost any CSM army especially in competitive play but I addressed that in my first post when I started the thread. There are plenty of other threads out there to argue his viability but this isn't one. I created this thread as a collection of creative and fun ideas to put this little loved champ to use. If you've got some ideas for how to field him we'd love to hear it but we've all heard the "he sucks don't take him" schtick before. For clarity I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything I'm just keeping the purpose of this thread clear

GorillaWarfare wrote:If I recall correctly, does the Dark Apostle gives Ld 10 to every unit with 6 inches? With that in mind you could also charge up another cultist squad next to the Dark Apostle's unit.

yes he does and I've seen some lists with obscene numbers of cultists in them to utilize this bubble. I don't think it's a very strong list but it'd still be a wild ride to play! Sadly I don't have nearly the number of cultist models I'd need to field a 6 troop choice cultist blob army.

wtnind wrote:3 oblits are better than 3 mutilators because you can rapid fire plasma / heavy flamers before charging. The bonus of having lightning claws and +1 attack isn't enough to outweigh the oblits benefits. Also you can open a transport with 3 multi melta and charge the occupants

Ah I see your point, and to be honest this appears like it would apply to almost any army build, even those not using a DA. Makes me wonder as to the viability of any mutilator use in any CSM list.

herpguy wrote:
The Dark Apostle is not worth it outside of fluffy lists. He just simply isn't worth it when a sorcerer has the same statline and comes in at 20 points cheaper with the same loadout, with arguably better abilities and army support.

He isn't perfect, but he cant really be compared to the sorcerer considering he is mostly used for giving a unit fearless and hatred. Demagogue is rarely useful.
The sorcerer doesn't give the hatred or more importantly fearless, so the unit can run away pretty easily.

Like i said before i give mine a MoS and black mace at 165pts. I find the Mos Important due to the initiative, however if you dont mind losing the hatred you could use a Lord in disguise.
Not only will he have an extra WS, BS, W, and A but the extra Initiative means he doesn't need to be slaanesh so can take a MoN or MoT to make him more survivable (along with his extra wound)
He will also have 10pts change for a combi or melta-bombs if you like.

Dark Apostle, MoS, Black Mace 165
Vs.
Chaos Lord, MoN, Sigil of Corruption, Black Mace, VOTLW 155

I know this thread is for trying to make him work, just putting him out there as an alternative option. It's a shame the Lord is cheaper, perhaps he should be more expensive and even better.
Keep trying though, the Apostle is a Beast.

One thing I am noticing with my DA is that if I put him in a cultists squad I am pretty much forced to footslog him which seldom gets him anywhere near where he needs to be to help out. the more I think about it the more I want to try putting him in a rhino with some Chosen and kit them out to compliment the DA in whatever role I want him to fill. To stay on the cheaper side I could probably just do a CSM squad instead of chosen and save my elite slot for something else. That'd also give me another scoring unit on the field, albeit a small once since I'd probably just run them as a 5-man.
So what do you guys think, chosen or CSM?
What loadout would you give the chosen or CSM squad to compliment the DA loadout of your choice?

I'm thinkin CSM with 2 plasma guns and a power weapon (axe maybe).
Not sure what options the chosen marines have to make them different from a standard CSM squad and make them more useful, i'll have to check my dex.

Oh, if he doesn't allow rerolls on gifts...the only good use i see is a commissar lord. Sitting backfield behind aegis with devastators and cultists around.

Kharn. He has hatred and fearless (Zealot) and he's also a combat monster.

Sidguard wrote:
Kharn. He has hatred and fearless (Zealot) and he's also a combat monster.

Hmmm. Kharn plus Chosen in a landraider? Could be fun.
Is it legal though? I don't have my codex on me right now. Chosen have all the marks so can be joined by a character with any mark correct?

chosen are unmarked then buy a mark, just like regular CSM.

Tzeentch Dark Apostles are pretty fun. Rerolling Gift of Mutation rolls can be pretty awesome especially if you bring Daemonic allies.

The Scrolls of Magnus are also my favorite artifact. It's probably not worth it's points cost but it is lots of fun to play with and I've done some pretty silly things with it before. It fits very well onto a Dark Apostle, too.

I think my biggest gripe with Dark Apostles is how they can't take jump packs. I would *love* to run one of these guys with some Tzeentch Warp Talons if it was possible but making that work is just sadly impossible.

stewy37 wrote:
Chosen have all the marks so can be joined by a character with any mark correct?

If only! I would totally pay the current cost of chosen if they all got +1T, Init,A and +1++ ... alas only Abaddon gets to have all the marks (and that fool doesn't even nick a sigil of corruption of one of his buddies for a 3++ - what a dummy).

That's where I got the confusion. Abaddon has all the marks with the boosts included in his statline. Obviously I've never used Chosen before And my friend has my codex right now, so I can't reference it.

Inevitable_Faith wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:If I recall correctly, does the Dark Apostle gives Ld 10 to every unit with 6 inches? With that in mind you could also charge up another cultist squad next to the Dark Apostle's unit.

yes he does and I've seen some lists with obscene numbers of cultists in them to utilize this bubble. I don't think it's a very strong list but it'd still be a wild ride to play! Sadly I don't have nearly the number of cultist models I'd need to field a 6 troop choice cultist blob army.

Keep in mind the unit has to be within 6" of the Dark Apostle, not just his unit. It's hard enough to get this on any unit let alone several blobs. Trying it usually ends up just making it extremely difficult to maneuver the squads; hurting more than the Ld10 is helping

So looking in the dex the advantages to chosen are a Ld of 9 (meaningless since we will be grouping them with a DA) +1 attack and the special weapons options are opened up. 4 of the chosen can take special weapons such as flamer, melta, plasma, combi weapons and melee weapons such as power weapons, lightning claws or power fists. One chosen may also choose to take a heavy weapon.

They get the same marks as the CSM (can't take multiples. Abaddon gets this not beacause he has all 4 marks but rather he has the mark of chaos ascendant which counts as all four) and of course option to take a rhino.

So my thinking is this: Kitting out a CSM squad is going to be cheaper (less options) and a CSM squad is cheaper by 15 points. What you are missing out on is 4 attacks (1 for each regular CSM because the aspiring champ has 2) and some flexibility. Having said that the unit would be a scoring unit whereas the chosen are not.

So here are a couple retinue ideas I have for the DA's honour guard:

CSM squad retinue
Plasma gunx2
Power weapon on Aspiring champ (choose whichever one will be most effective vs your opponent, I'm thinking either axe or sword mostly since the DA already has a maul)
Rhino
Mark them as you please... probably MoN or MoT
Roughly 165 to 170 pts based on mark

Chosen Retinue
5 Plasma Guns or 5 power weapons
Rhino
200 pts without marks

Chaos terminator retinue
MoT
Icon of Flame
125 points

Of the three options I think they all have some merit. The CSM squad appeals to me because they are also a scoring unit. The chosen squad seems like they would be absolutely deadly but a huge points sink either way you build them (coupled with the DA zealot though the power weapons build sounds kool) And the termies will be super tough with the MoT and they are the cheapest of the three choices. However with the termies you are locked to footslogging again like you would be with your cultists.

So what you guys think? Could honour guard be another fun way to field our DA?