Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I'm a huge fan of the Raven Guard Chapter, and am hugely disappointed in the Raven Guard Chapter Traits from the 6ed Codex. Looking for a variant that I can take to my LGS and gaming group that is more in line with the Chapters fluff, tactics, and unit composition while not being a power grab to somehow make them better than the other Chapter Traits in the dex. Not looking for anything "official" just looking to bring something that fits the fluff, and while effective, is still "balanced".
For me there are three pillars to the Raven Guard battle plan. Stealth, Coordinated Assault, and Speed.
Stealh - Any Raven Guard non vehicle model that is not bulky or extra bulky gains the "Shrouded" USR at game start. If the model moves during any turn it will lose the USR, but may gain it again if it spends a turn stationary.
Coordinated Assault - Raven Guard reserve units that would arrive from reserve using the "Deepstrike" USR may re-roll ALL reserve rolls.
Speed - Raven Guard units equipped with jump packs may use their jump packs in both the movement phase and assault phase.
In order to further capture the "feel" of a Raven Guard force the following would also apply.
Scouts - A Raven Guard detachment must include at least one Scout squad.
Jump Pack Command Squads - If a Raven Guard character equipped with a Jump Pack takes a command squad, that squad may be equipped with jump packs for 3 pts a model. If so equipped, they may not take wargear from the "Ranged" wargear section.
Talons - Any Jump Pack equipped model that may choose wargear from the "Melee" wargear section may choose a pair of Lightning Claws for +20 points. If they do so, then the model cannot choose to upgrade its bolt pistol.
Again, not trying to find anything official, just hoping for some feedback on whether this is too much of a Chapter Trait. Considering the White Scars and Iron Hands traits, I think these are fairly balanced. Fine tweaking and alternate perspectives are greatly appreciated.
Strike, retreat, strike again, the moto of the raven guard... So why o why don't they have hit and run?
Raven guard should have chapter tactics (raven guard) gain the following
All units gain "stealth" usr
All "infantry" gain the infiltrate, this includes characters, all "jump infantry" gain the outflank usr All jump infantry may use there jump packs in the movement and assault phase, they also MUST rr failed to would with hammer of wrath.
Last but not least, any command squad bought.with a captain ONLY, May take jump packs for 3pts per model
I was responding to the OP. But scout that gives outflank. I don't know about infiltrate giving outflank actually and dont have the BRB on me... ive just always assumed people are outflanking with scout when they play it against me. If ive missed that throughout 6th then its a facepalm moment.
I also like your suggestions btw.
Both of you are correct with the command squad needing jps. Although I would price it at 5ppm since they are elite troops (also means more people would accept it - I personally wouldnt mimd if you paid 3).
Why only a captain btw?
I thought Raven Guard chapter tactics were one of the better chapter tactics in the book. What exactly are the problems you're running into while running it?
Formosa wrote: Strike, retreat, strike again, the moto of the raven guard... So why o why don't they have hit and run?
Excellent point, got me looking at a comparison of Shrike and Korsaro. Seems to me that Korsaro is a much better bargain, and he provides an army wide SR. I think it'd be worth arguing that Shrike should provide Hit and Run.
Poly Ranger wrote: I was responding to the OP. But scout that gives outflank. I don't know about infiltrate giving outflank actually and dont have the BRB on me... ive just always assumed people are outflanking with scout when they play it against me. If ive missed that throughout 6th then its a facepalm moment.
I also like your suggestions btw.
Both of you are correct with the command squad needing jps. Although I would price it at 5ppm since they are elite troops (also means more people would accept it - I personally wouldnt mimd if you paid 3).
Why only a captain btw?
Scout does give outflank. I priced jump packs at 3 ppm to match the cost Vanguard Vets pay for them.
SRSFACE wrote: I thought Raven Guard chapter tactics were one of the better chapter tactics in the book. What exactly are the problems you're running into while running it?
My wall of text reply to the above.
Spoiler:
While my main objection is that the Raven Guard chapter traits don't involve deepstriking reserves, namely drop pods. I don't really think that the RG traits are worthwhile or more importantly, in line with their fluff. They get stealth but it only lasts first turn, White Scars get +1 jink the entire game. Korsaro gives his entire detachment the Scout USR. Which the RG get as well, but its limited to non bulky infantry and their dedicated transports. The jump pack rule, I do like.
I believe the RG fluff has them deploying more from the air in drop pods or with jump packs from thunderhawks than a "scout" move that allows vehicles to surge forward/sideways or outlfank. They are supposed to be quite skilled at Aerial assaults, so I thought that re-rolling reserve rolls of units deploying by deepstrike was far more fitting, it gives them a better chance to get their pods and jump troops on the appointed place at the appointed time.
In reading a great deal of the fluff, Raven Guard seem to have an ability that allows them to blend into the shadows when they don't want to be seen. Especially highlighted in the new ebook Shadow Captain. Rather than giving stealth to all units on turn one, which is far less than the Scars get when they move with their bikes during the entire game. I thought it better to give them the "shrouded" USR when the Ravens DO NOT move. This allows them to cloak their presence when they wish to, but doesn't give troops arriving from a drop pod on turn one an unexplainable cover save. The argument could be made that shrouded is a lot more than just stealth when they don't move. I have some test games set up with willing opponents, I'll be taking a deep look at the feedback my opponents give me.
As far as the issues I've had with the current Raven Guard chapter traits, competitively. The stealth rule is laughable with Taudar shenanigans. It's only first turn though, so you don't laugh too long. Scout moves are quickly shut down by 34 point inq/servoskulls. Outflank is still there of course, but I don't want to play White Scars. Which is what the use of this rule seems like to me. I like the jump pack chapter traits, they're fine like they are. Coupled with the jump pack command squads, "hit and run" from Shrike (thanks for that inspiration Formosa) and the ability to re-roll reserve rolls for Deepstriking units, I think the rule will finally make using jump infantry worthwhile in my Raven Guard force.
My first issue with the Raven Guard chapter traits is that they don't point you towards playing the detachment according to their fluff. Raven Guard are the first SM detachment I'd think of if someone asked which chapter would go all drop pod. Their chapter traits do nothing besides give the DPA troops +1 stealth on that first turn. After that, they have nothing to add. I don't want to play White Scars in black armor. I'm not looking for chapter traits that are broken, or an auto win button. And while I recognize that this pales in comparison to the plight of the Traitor Legions, they have far more to complain about than my RG do. I don't play them, and will leave it to those players to seek their own solutions to the problem.
My first issue with the Raven Guard chapter traits is that they don't point you towards playing the detachment according to their fluff. Raven Guard are the first SM detachment I'd think of if someone asked which chapter would go all drop pod. Their chapter traits do nothing besides give the DPA troops +1 stealth on that first turn. After that, they have nothing to add. I don't want to play White Scars in black armor. I'm not looking for chapter traits that are broken, or an auto win button. And while I recognize that this pales in comparison to the plight of the Traitor Legions, they have far more to complain about than my RG do. I don't play them, and will leave it to those players to seek their own solutions to the problem.
Firstly, let me say I get your beefs now! Usually when I see people saying stuff like "fixing" something it's because they feel it lacks being competitive rather than more for fluff reasons. Out of the two guys who play regular space marines around here, the one who's winning most often plays Raven Guard so I'd kind of assumed they were a fairly decent army.
As for drop pods:
They actually get SOMETHING out of the Stealth rule when they utilize drop pods, which is more than any other army can say. I kind of assumed the chapter tactic that didn't deal with jump packs rule they all got had to do with the prevalence of scouts used by the Raven Guard chapter.
I also think it's folly to ever say "isn't a big deal against Taudar cheese" because that's why Taudar is cheese. The stealth on first turn thing, especially if you roll night fight, keeps all your stuff especially beyond 24" pretty safe from just about anything that isn't a broken I WIN button like Tau markerlights.
They actually get SOMETHING out of the Stealth rule when they utilize drop pods, which is more than any other army can say. I kind of assumed the chapter tactic that didn't deal with jump packs rule they all got had to do with the prevalence of scouts used by the Raven Guard chapter.
I also think it's folly to ever say "isn't a big deal against Taudar cheese" because that's why Taudar is cheese. The stealth on first turn thing, especially if you roll night fight, keeps all your stuff especially beyond 24" pretty safe from just about anything that isn't a broken I WIN button like Tau markerlights.
The first turn drop pods get a little something, the rest dont benefit from it. Interceptor Tau don't realy care much about my 6+ cover save. As far as the Taudar go, my point with a drop pod list is that generally thats all your going to get unless you drop close enough to cover, and close enough to put your target into rapid fire range. But its gone after the first turn anyways, so compared to a full game ability like the Scars/Fists/Sallies, or even one like the Ultra traits that can be chosen to optimize your list as the game goes on, it doesn't do much.
Worked my way into another play test game this weekend, should be three games, by and large my game group seems to be open to the rules. I don't have a terrible win/loss ratio with my Raven Guard, I just want them to actually seem like Raven Guard when I play them.
I agree that the rg CT are not fully fluffy, jump packs should totally be able to benefit from scout first of all since they are a jump pack army. I don't think they should get shrouded though, maybe stealth in the way you describe but even then if it was possible every turn, people would take 3 devastator squads and have a 2+ cover save with a Techmarine in there or ally in a thunder fire cannon.
I like all the stuff you came up with but honestly, allowing jump packs to be able to benefit from first round scout and stealth would be enough to put them on same level and depending on builds be better then other CT, especially if you have 1st turn omg so OPlol :p
Corvaxes wrote: The first turn drop pods get a little something, the rest dont benefit from it. Interceptor Tau don't realy care much about my 6+ cover save. As far as the Taudar go, my point with a drop pod list is that generally thats all your going to get unless you drop close enough to cover, and close enough to put your target into rapid fire range. But its gone after the first turn anyways, so compared to a full game ability like the Scars/Fists/Sallies, or even one like the Ultra traits that can be chosen to optimize your list as the game goes on, it doesn't do much.
Worked my way into another play test game this weekend, should be three games, by and large my game group seems to be open to the rules. I don't have a terrible win/loss ratio with my Raven Guard, I just want them to actually seem like Raven Guard when I play them.
Keep in mind if you're worried about their counter-shooting, you can usually utilize your drop pod as cover. Even if you don't cheat and you drop the doors down like a respoectable player, the drop pods themselves tend to be enough to give you the 5+ cover, meaning Stealth ups it to 4+. It's not going to be against every unit, like the guys left over in the squad they initially shot at, but it's something to be mindful of.
Personally I'd be okay if they simply gained Stealth at all times, the whole game wide. It only counts for regular infantry which equates to tacticals, scouts, and anything you drop pod in (as they'd obviously no longer be with jump packs.) I guess that'd potentially make their librarians "better" than other non-Tigirius libbys in that codex and I'm not sure how fluffy that is, but it'd be in a way I don't feel is particularly overpowered.
Dat Guy wrote: I agree that the rg CT are not fully fluffy, jump packs should totally be able to benefit from scout first of all since they are a jump pack army. I don't think they should get shrouded though, maybe stealth in the way you describe but even then if it was possible every turn, people would take 3 devastator squads and have a 2+ cover save with a Techmarine in there or ally in a thunder fire cannon.
I like all the stuff you came up with but honestly, allowing jump packs to be able to benefit from first round scout and stealth would be enough to put them on same level and depending on builds be better then other CT, especially if you have 1st turn omg so OPlol :p
I'm looking for my playtest games to give me a clue on whether or not shrouded is too powerful rather than simply stealth when they don't move. I don't like scout for RG jump packs simply because I feel that they should be deployed through deepstrike either as Thunderhawk deployed or long range jumps to get them onto the battlefield from off table edge. As for the 3 dev squad idea, I'm not advocating these rules for anyone besides myself amongst my own local play group. My objective is to have chapter traits that reflect the chapter I'm playing.
No units in these chapter traits would gain the "scout" USR. And bulky models (jump pack models) don't benefit from the stealth rule at all. So no first turn OP'ness here =]
SRSFACE wrote: Keep in mind if you're worried about their counter-shooting, you can usually utilize your drop pod as cover. Even if you don't cheat and you drop the doors down like a respoectable player, the drop pods themselves tend to be enough to give you the 5+ cover, meaning Stealth ups it to 4+. It's not going to be against every unit, like the guys left over in the squad they initially shot at, but it's something to be mindful of.
True. I do enjoy "circling the wagons" with my pods to help weather some of the incoming shots. Sadly, there are too many armies that easily make a mockery of cover. Thats why I don't put much stock in it, that +1 on first turn never really does much for my pods.
SRSFACE wrote: Personally I'd be okay if they simply gained Stealth at all times, the whole game wide. It only counts for regular infantry which equates to tacticals, scouts, and anything you drop pod in (as they'd obviously no longer be with jump packs.) I guess that'd potentially make their librarians "better" than other non-Tigirius libbys in that codex and I'm not sure how fluffy that is, but it'd be in a way I don't feel is particularly overpowered.
True, stealth all the time certainly would fit, and a I was perhaps running a little too close to the fluff with shrouded when they don't move. Looking for something that allows them to blend in when they wish too and take action to allow it. Rather than just running around with it always on. The Bulky and Extra Bulky unit omission from the rule does help a bit but I don't want the chapter traits to somehow turn my Raven Guard into defensive siegemasters.
It'll I guess come down to how I play them, I usually camp objectives with scout squads and pod, jump pack, storm raven everything else. First wave to hopefully smash the shiny bitz and subsequent waves to contest or claim objectives. Shrouded would usually be unavailable since most of the army either doesn't have access to it, or is moving constantly to maintain their march on objectives. It would come into play mostly once those objectives are reached.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/31 05:15:54
The difference with white scars +1 to jink, it only works if they move and it doesn't matter what terrain cover save is. With stealth its a plus 1 to any cover save, with a tech marine and bolster defenses and stealth you can have 2+ cover save ruins or 3+ area terrain.
I like it, but if you're going with the concept of the RG ability from the new e-book, you should allow your stealth ability inspired by it to apply to jump pack units. All the marines in it are 8th company marines equipped with jump packs.
Hit and Run might actually make Shrike worthwhile.
dracpanzer wrote: I like it, but if you're going with the concept of the RG ability from the new e-book, you should allow your stealth ability inspired by it to apply to jump pack units. All the marines in it are 8th company marines equipped with jump packs.
Hit and Run might actually make Shrike worthwhile.
Um Shrike is already worth it. He is 1 of the 2 fastest special character HQs. He gets stealth for the entire game and it counts toward any squad he is attached to. He and any assault squad he is attached to can infiltrate or out flank. His war lord trait is good for his battle field purpose when attached with a squad.
His weapons are awesome 5 attacks on charge plus a rerollable hammer of wrath that can rend! WTF?! Master crafted, rending and shred all at initiative 5. Yeah that's how he rolls.
There are many strategies with him. Start him off with a 10 man assault squad with the chapter master with a bike or jump pack if you care about fluff. Give him shield eternal with a thunder hammer or teeth of terra. Oh look at that you have 3 power hitting units/models starting 18"away along with your scouting rhinos or razorbacks. Add drop pods and bam you have a in your face what are you going to deal with now force.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its really powerful if you get first turn, but if you don't, just place your guys to benefit from at least 5+ cover and you have stealth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 23:53:22
