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A friend of mine keep using mindshackle scarab in his necron 's lists (i don't blame him: i would do the same )
there is a way to counteract or avoid them?
i tried to shoot him down but he's surronding the overlord with a wraith unit and other armour things; or transported him inside flying croissant-like thingy (don't remember the name sorry )
i tried also to avoid him putting my big IC inside the unit, but he keep challenging him

so... there is a way? a specifical psionic power? an item (maybe inquisitorial)?
if i charge his necron with a Dreadnaught, that's a veichle and not a character, can i avoid them or it will use it (and automatically work 'cause Dreaddy got no Ld)?

Ally in Ultramarines and take Tigurius for to try and get Hallucination. Lock them up for a while and shoot them with small arms fire- make them take as many saves as possible. Even 10 bolter shots can kill terminators.

1. Make sure to contact the scarab-bearer with a weak model when you use good quality troops.

i.e. If you have a paladin squad, put the guy with brotherhood banner next to the overlord, so he hits his guys with no force weapon.

2. Use low quality and high quantity in assaults

Orkmobs dont care for one dead ork as termies do for one dead termi...

3. Avoid challenges on the assault move by making sure any characters are out of 2" fighting range before ini step 10. So they can't get in a challenge, but can step in and fight nevertheless.

Ways to avoid MSS (and piss off a necron player)

1. Charge only with a unit - decline the challenge.

2. Charge with a walker

3. If you play DE/Eldar, have a Venom with Grisly Trophies close by to allow you to reroll the test.


Of these, #1 is the most annoying since Necrons are (for the most part) all I2 so even if you decline the challenge, more than likely, the rest of your unit will attack first and will deal enough wounds to force a sweeping advance on the necrons. Just don't lead the charge with your character.

-Nazdreg- wrote:3. Avoid challenges on the assault move by making sure any characters are out of 2" fighting range before ini step 10. So they can't get in a challenge, but can step in and fight nevertheless

sorry i did'nt understand what do you mean...
if i have a character out of 2" from enemy, he's not in combat (he's not in coherency anymore so he's a different unit now)... or what am i missing?

Unholyllama wrote:Ways to avoid MSS (and piss off a necron player)
2. Charge with a walker

so a walker is immune to MSS?
cool i got several dreadnaught and CC Dreadnaught (Furioso, Furioso Librarian, DC Dreaddy...)

Dreadnaughts (walkers in general) are Vehicles and thus are immune to leadership tests (they dont' even have a leadership value).

Now - I DON'T recommend assaulting a Necron character with a chariot or walker since the character will probably have a Warscythe which is S+2 AP2 Armourbane - which makes short any vehicle.

As a necron player, I love it when a BA player charges my Overlord with his Furioso since I'll make my saves (or Look out Sir them) and then have 3+ S7 AP2 Armourbane attacks against it.

Precision shooting - Use this to snipe him out of the group he is in.
Barrage sniping – Same as above.
Decline challenges - Make him waste it on a lesser model.

Quick question, are you talking Overlords with MSS or Destroyer lords with MSS.. maybe both? If he is running a Dlord with wraiths, then you handle them the same way, VoF. Put the unit down before it gets near you. You do not want a Dlord and full strength wraith unit assaulting you. Its just bad business at that point. If it is a normal lord, he tends to have to come in a transport. If it is a NS, it can only move 24 and still let him get out, so if he doesn’t drop them the turn they come in, you should be blowing that thing out of the sky. Make them walk on from the table edge. Veil teks allow them to DS around so it becomes a little more problematic.

Dont forget Step by step order.

After you make your charge and at the beginning of pre combat you can say MSS goes off first before challenges are declared. (If you charge. if necrons charge its different)

unless he is in the front he will waste it for a turn.

Unless you sweep him though second round he will get it though.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
1. Make sure to contact the scarab-bearer with a weak model when you use good quality troops.

i.e. If you have a paladin squad, put the guy with brotherhood banner next to the overlord, so he hits his guys with no force weapon.

2. Use low quality and high quantity in assaults

Orkmobs dont care for one dead ork as termies do for one dead termi...

3. Avoid challenges on the assault move by making sure any characters are out of 2" fighting range before ini step 10. So they can't get in a challenge, but can step in and fight nevertheless.

A model must be "engaged" in combat to issue or accept challenges. If the character is not "engaged" in combat, then he can not attack. You can't be engaged for combat, but not engaged for challenges.

The order in which challenges are issued and mindshackles going off is determined by who’s CC phase it is. If it’s your opponent’s phase he gets to choose, if it’s your phase you get to choose

When you charge your opponent’s mind shackle unit keep your IC out of base to base and it’s no problem unless you left your beat stick IC exposed out in front where the Dlord can base to base him during the charge. Base to base the dlord with a grunt, declare mindshackles go first, and have a grunt absorb the mind shackels. Then declare a challenge.

If you get charged but didn’t screw up and your IC is hidden deep within the unit everything is going to be ok.. When you get charged ask him which one goes first, he has to either declare which one goes first before you decide if you will accept the challenge. If the challenge goes first sacrifice a sergeant and have your IC focus on generating combat resolution. If he blows mindshakles first and you think your IC can take the Dlord accept the challenge after he wastes his mind shackles.

Also to note for 1 model unit characters.

there is are situations where you can charge a unit with a D-lord.

if possible come in from an angle where you touch a grunt first instead of the lord. that way you can make em pop MSS first as per order of operation. as it all happens before initiative pile in.

That is a very handy tip. Thanks guys.

Or simply: Just pass your Ld test :p

Shoot the ever loving heck out of it first.

1- Make sure the Cron player knows what they do...

As a long time Necron player nothing has pissed me off more than other Necron players abusing these. I pretty much only run them on my Phaeron now, and only if I don't have a better use for the points. Here are some tips that will probably land me traitor status.

1- This one has been mentioned, but when you charge keep models out of base contact with the MSS. If you can't, then put your weakest hitter in there. At the start of the turn, as the current player, you get to force him to use them, then issue challenges, etc.

2- Another one mentioned. Keep your Characters outside of 2" on the charge, but close enough that he'll be able to pile-in. CSM players are very familiar with this tactic. Also, feel free to decline the challenge on his turn and let the MSS take a grunt.

3- Sniping/Precision shots. I'm not sayin ally with GK's to get a Vindicare, but use those shots when you can. Sure the Lords will most likely have a 2+ save, but they only Look Out Sir on a 4+. This won't work as well with IC's, but put the pressure on.

4- Now this is one that really gets under my skin when I hear about it. A MSS model that goes down and then makes his RP, is no longer in a challenge. Off memory, he can't even be placed in base contact with an enemy model when he gets up. (Sorry Dex not with me). RP happens at the end of each phase, which is after piling-in. So if you manage to down the MSS model, you get a break for a turn.

5- BREAK THE UNIT. This one should be obvious, but I've seen far too many games where players under-commit to killing a unit. There is a myth that Necrons are bad in CC. We're not, we're just slow. WS, S, T are all equal to a Marine. Warriors took a small hit by being shafted to a 4+ from earlier Dex, but other than that you have to treat them as if your trying to break Marines.

A 10 man squad of Marines, for example, isn't going to stand toe-to-toe, with 10 Immortals. Even without the MSS, the Warscythe is going to dish some hurt, helping them pass the LD test, then RP kicks in and you're soon outnumbered. This is where MSS thrive and cause so much grief. I'm going to be honest and say, if you don't break the unit, then you deserve all the MSS love your opponent has brought.

*** Note on Dreads getting around MSS. There is only one Dread that I fear making it into CC, and that is the BAngels Furioso. Every other Dread that manages to make it through the Gauss fire, will still have a Warscythe waiting for them in almost all cases. Don't rely on them to save you as a tactic. ***

I used Bjorn (The only Dreadnought character) to challenge the Necron HQ. He foolishly accepted and promptly got IDed.

 schadenfreude wrote:
The order in which challenges are issued and mindshackles going off is determined by who’s CC phase it is. If it’s your opponent’s phase he gets to choose, if it’s your phase you get to choose

ooooh
i don't know this!
so, all "before initiative" actions will happen at the order chosen by player whos turn is?
coool

can i ask you where is on the rulebook? sometime i play with people who need the exact page where a rule is written...

each-uisge wrote:
Can i ask you where is on the rulebook? sometime i play with people who need the exact page where a rule is written...

Pg 9, under 'Exceptions'. It covers what to do for all rules when they occur at the same time.

Best way to stop MSS: don't take melee characters at all. IG, for example, laugh at MSS because who cares if a random sergeant hits himself with his bare fists? In fact the MSS probably helps the IG player by making them more likely to lose combat and fall back so the Necron unit can be shot next turn. By not having anything relevant to use the MSS on you've turned the upgrade into wasted points at best.

Akar wrote:

each-uisge wrote:
Can i ask you where is on the rulebook? sometime i play with people who need the exact page where a rule is written...

Pg 9, under 'Exceptions'. It covers what to do for all rules when they occur at the same time.

Thanks a lot!!

Peregrine wrote:Best way to stop MSS: don't take melee characters at all. IG, for example, laugh at MSS because who cares if a random sergeant hits himself with his bare fists? In fact the MSS probably helps the IG player by making them more likely to lose combat and fall back so the Necron unit can be shot next turn. By not having anything relevant to use the MSS on you've turned the upgrade into wasted points at best.

loooool
the problem is the warlord :\
first time he used MSS on me he was assaulted by vanguard; no IC, he just used one normal veteran and did very little effect. However, he launch at the assault pointing to your warlord and this could be pretty dangerous. However, i'm almost always launch my warlord in front line (most of time a libby with shield of sanguinius to shield main assault unit) so if he keep chasing my warlord, i can keep him around the table...

I tend to try and tie up MSS characters that cant really hurt themselves, characters with weapons with worse AP's then their armour ie: Chaplains with Crozius, Chapter Champions in Artificier armour with power swords, Terminators with power swords or lightning claws... guys that even if they get MSSed prolly wont do much harm to themselves.

Then as everyone else said, gotta try and sweep the unit

the above works well enough- for a single mss chatacter. but when the crons bring 7 of them in a unit... things get alot less easy to deal with as your unit just beats itself to death, or stands there and does nothing while the cron warscythes tear them a new one. MSS is not just there to make you kill your own guys - it also stops that model from attacking the crons. allowing them to swing in with impunity.

 Akar wrote:

Off memory, he can't even be placed in base contact with an enemy model when he gets up. (Sorry Dex not with me). RP happens at the end of each phase, which is after piling-in. So if you manage to down the MSS model, you get a break for a turn.

Turns out I was wrong. They immediately get to pile-in (Something I haven't been doing)

Sorry.

My problem with necrons is that i kill their warlord 3 times and he gets back up every time.


Literally happens every game.

Well that necron player should go to Vegas because thats pretty awesome luck.

Eihnlazer wrote:
My problem with necrons is that i kill their warlord 3 times and he gets back up every time.


Literally happens every game.

I hate to say this but if it really gets annoying start using strenght d weapons.

 Necrosis wrote:

I hate to say this but if it really gets annoying start using strenght d weapons.

And what is this supposed to do differently?

 Akar wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:

I hate to say this but if it really gets annoying start using strenght d weapons.

And what is this supposed to do differently?

Kills the mss from long range, with no saves or coming back from the dead.

 Necrosis wrote:
Kills the mss from long range, with no saves or coming back from the dead.

K, am I missing an FAQ or did they change the wording on how this works?

You're going to have a hard time getting to the MSS if it's in the middle or rear of a unit. IIRC (Im not an eldar player), D weapons only generate hits equal to the number of models if it's a line attack. I don't think there is anything in there to get around the normal Casualty Removal rules, like 'JotWW does. Only other possible way to get at him, is with Indirect fire, and the LoS rolls can be made.

Pretty sure that D-weapons only inflict ID on a 6, which really only matters if it's hitting something T6, and doesn't have the 'remove models from play' rule like the earlier versions did. The 'Instant Death' rule disappeared with the last codex. Instant Death no longer prevents Reanimation Protocols like it used to. So there is nothing there that gets around it, unless it expressly prevents it in the Weapons profile in the Eldar Dex (which I don't have, and I've not seen anyone use them against me yet). If it doesn't say it there, then it's still not really an issue since the BRB FAQ cleared it all up to the relief of Necron Players.

BRB FAQ
Q: If a model is ‘removed from play’ due to such effects as failing
their Initiative test against ‘Jaws of the World Wolf’, does this
count as being removed as a casualty? (p15)
A: Yes.

Again, I don't have an Eldar Codex, so if you have a page number, I'll look it up next time I'm around one. I'm happy to know if it's incorrect for if/when I actually see them against me on the table. However, if it doesn't expressly state that Necrons do not get a Reanimation Protocol, then it would be an effect of the attack, much like JotWW, so would count as a casualty. Then all you've managed to do is remove all the wounds on the MSS model before it gets to you. Which would really only matter if it's an Overlord/D-Lord, since everything else that can take it have 1 wound anyways.

He is talking about the strength D weapons in Escalation, not Eldar Distort weapons.