Amanda Knox Found Guilty (Again)

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**LordofHats**

Orlanth wrote:
Also don't denegrate Italians as degenerates who will murder each other for food, it's beneath the topic.

Oh lighten up

It is the answer. Thousands of murders happen everyday and what gets the famous ones in the news is a mix of luck and noteriety. An American exchange student killing her Italian roommate in a drug induced satanic sex orgy (which is how this murder was first reported and how the police first investigated it) hits so many special news buttons. Foreign nationals, sex, drugs, and Satan? That's too juicy not to report.

An italian killing an italian on the other hand happens all the time. It's a regular old murder so people pay less notice, especially overseas outside of Italy. As a result he'll only ever get mentioned in reference to the more noteable Knox even though their both in the same proverbial boat.

**Frazzled**

Also don't denegrate Italians as degenerates who will murder each other for food, it's beneath the topic.

Oh contraire, this is a society who's cuisine is so developed, so epically awesome, that its worth dying for.

This is a country I want to live in.

**dogma**

LordofHats wrote:
She was never acquitted, she was found guilty and the verdict set aside on appeal and appeals court ordered a retrail (several news reports use the word acquital in reference to this but that's not what happened).

My understanding is that it was the Italian supreme court which set aside the verdict of the appellate court and permitted a retrial. Had this not occurred it seems as though the appellate verdict would have been tantamount to an acquittal.

**Kilkrazy**

LordofHats wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Also don't denegrate Italians as degenerates who will murder each other for food, it's beneath the topic.

Oh lighten up

It is the answer. Thousands of murders happen everyday and what gets the famous ones in the news is a mix of luck and noteriety. An American exchange student killing her Italian roommate in a drug induced satanic sex orgy (which is how this murder was first reported and how the police first investigated it) hits so many special news buttons. Foreign nationals, sex, drugs, and Satan? That's too juicy not to report.

An italian killing an italian on the other hand happens all the time. It's a regular old murder so people pay less notice, especially overseas outside of Italy. As a result he'll only ever get mentioned in reference to the more noteable Knox even though their both in the same proverbial boat.

Italy has a fairly low murder rate, actually, about 1/4 that of the USA.

Admittedly that is because Italy is such a violent country.

**LordofHats**

tantamount to an acquittal

Effectively the outcome is the same but no one found her innocent. Both times she's been to trial she was found guilty and the court overturned the first verdict because of insanely sloppy police and lab procedures, not because they thought she didn't do it. Effectively a mistrial without prejudice (if thats the proper term).

The way it works in Italy (from what I can tell) is that the state can retry a case but they have to show that there is new evidence or with special permission from a judge. The same thing can happen here in the US but Italy has a much lower standard than us because they don't have protection from double jeopardy as a constitutional right but the state can't try the same case over and over either. They have to show that there is new evidence or some other valid reason for another trial which is over sighted by a judge.

Italy has a fairly low murder rate, actually, about 1/4 that of the USA

Less than that. It's almost 1/5.

That's not really my point. Good old fashion murder never gets as much attention as the flashy stuff, and Knox makes the case flashy hence why she gets so much more attention in media (and of course we're Americans, we care more about an American).

**Jihadin**

If Italy takes Justin Beiber permanently then they can have Amanda.....sorry Amanda...its for the Greater Good

**Kilkrazy**

an article on the BBC website wrote:Assuming Italy's highest court upholds the appeals court's decision, attention will turn to whether the US will extradite Knox if asked by Italian officials. According to Harvard Law Prof Alan Dershowitz, that's more likely than many in the US media may think.

"As popular as she is here and as pretty as she is here - because that's what this is all about, if she was not an attractive woman we wouldn't have the group love-in - she will be extradited if it's upheld," he tells Mira Oberman of Agence France Presse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-25989342

Here is what I could find about the evidence. It's not all circumstantial. One thing is the prosecutor changed the idea of motive from a sex game (which always seemed to me a bit unlikely) to an argument between flatmates.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21937829

What I would like is a sober account of all of the evidence used.

**LordofHats**

So Amanda Knox, the State Department, and the Italian ambassador go to a bar...

**Medium of Death**

I don't get the whole "She's really attractive thing so she won't face X, Y & Z consequences." She's not that attractive. I mean she isn't ugly, but she is hardly model worthy.

Also I don't think Italy has the death penalty, but if they did I'd suggest death by boulder.
(Came up in the suggested articles from KK links)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25975251

**Ouze**

Medium of Death wrote:
I don't get the whole "She's really attractive thing so she won't face X, Y & Z consequences." She's not that attractive. I mean she isn't ugly, but she is hardly model worthy.

She definitely has sharp knees.

**Medium of Death**

Ouze wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
I don't get the whole "She's really attractive thing so she won't face X, Y & Z consequences." She's not that attractive. I mean she isn't ugly, but she is hardly model worthy.

She definitely has sharp knees.

Nice one. I didn't say I wouldn't try my own chances but people proclaiming she's so beautiful that they are being swept up by it and disregarding evidence is ludicrous.

**Kilkrazy**

It's not the only thing. It is a factor, though.

**Ouze**

There's an interesting article on Slate claiming her (mostly) innocent.

That "argument that spun out of hand" angle is a little more believable.

Medium of Death wrote:
people proclaiming she's so beautiful that they are being swept up by it and disregarding evidence is ludicrous.

Yes, I will agree with that. She's just a normal looking girl, go to any mall any day of the week and you will likely see dozens of girls who look more or less like her.

**LordofHats**

Ouze wrote:
There's an interesting article on Slate claiming her (mostly) innocent.

If I may;

Most people know that Amanda Knox—"Foxy Knoxy"—is the pretty American student who was arrested and found guilty of the stabbing death of her British roommate in Italy, during a "sex game" gone wrong, when the pair were on study-abroad programs several years ago.

Unfortunately, a far smaller number of people know that Knox was probably completely innocent of the crime; that another man was successfully convicted of the murder; and that NONE of the evidence—blood, DNA, or witnesses—ever really pointed to Knox.

Here's a primer on the Knox case, and the miscarriage of justice at the heart of it.

Knox was initially convicted. Confusingly, the verdict was overturned by an Italian appeals court and then, a higher Italian court overturned that acquittal and asked that the case be heard again at the trial level. Thursday, Knox was found guilty again. She may choose to appeal the verdict.

This, of course, would never happen in a U.S. court, where the Constitution forbids suspects from being repeatedly retried.

The frustration for followers of the case—and Knox herself, of course—is that most people have a vague sense that she was Meredith Kercher's killer, and that somehow—on a technicality!—she wriggled free.

It's important to understand that when Knox went to Perugia to study, she was just 20 years old. Like a lot of kids in college, she experimented with marijuana, booze, and boys. She didn't feel the need to apologize or hide the fact.

This part of the Knox story—that she was a pretty, unapologetic party girl—seems to have worked against Knox from the start, even though it has nothing to do with the case.

Kercher's killer is actually Rudy Guede, an itinerant African immigrant.

Guede found Kercher's body in the house she shared with Knox (even though he didn't live there). His fingerprints were found at the scene. He admitted being there prior to the killing (and using the toilet). And one of his palm prints was found in a blood stain underneath Kercher's body.

He then fled town, and had to be extradited back to Italy from Germany to stand trial. He's serving 16 years.

In the excellent book on the case, "The Fatal Gift of Beauty; The Trials of Amanda Knox," author Nina Burleigh describes Guede's history with the law: He was previously arrested for housebreaking, and on one occasion stole a knife (Kercher was stabbed).

The baffling part of the book (which is sourced at a level of detail that's almost excruciating) is, why Knox was prosecuted in the first place.

The answer is that the Italian prosecutor in charge of the case was an obsessed weirdo who was convicted of corruption.

Giuliano Mignini had previously prosecuted the "Monster of Florence" serial killer case and became convinced that it was a masonic conspiracy. His case came to nothing. Mignini was later convicted of illegally tapping the phones of various police and reporters connected to the Florence case, and was given a 16-month suspended sentence.

Somehow, he was allowed to be in charge of the Kercher murder, and he screwed that up too. The alleged ritualistic sex game, for instance, turned out to be manufactured from whole cloth.

There was no evidence indicating Knox killed Kercher:

No DNA evidence linked Knox to the crime, even though she lived in the same house as Kercher.
The forensic evidence that did exist was mishandled by Italian authorities prior to trial. (Kercher's bra clasp was left on the floor of the crime scene for six weeks before blood evidence was found on it.)
A bloody knife print didn't match the knife police had in custody, so Mignini's team had to create a theory involving two knives, Burleigh reports.
One of Mignini's witnesses against Knox was Antonio Curalato, a homeless anarchist who slept on a bench near Knox's house. He testified on who was near the house that night, and he also remembered seeing a party bus on the night of the killing. Burleigh's book shows that that bus was not scheduled to run on the night of Kercher's death.
Curalato turned out to be a serial witness and heroin addict whom the police had persuaded to testify in two other murder cases.

It's not just that Knox was falsely accused. It's that her entire life was ruined in the process, in the most vindictive and sexist way possible. At one point, Burleigh reveals, a police official posing as a doctor informed Knox she had HIV, and asked her to name all her previous sexual partners so they could be alerted to the risk. She did so, and only found out later that it was a trick—the Italian cops just wanted to know about her sex life. (Her boyfriend at the time, Raffaele Sollecito, was also eventually acquitted of aiding in Kercher's murder.)

Knox was guilty of two things:

She did falsely accuse Patrick Lumumba, a bar owner, of being involved in the crime. She was convicted of that libel and sentenced to time served (three of the four years she spent behind bars).

She was also guilty of being young and naive. Burleigh's book paints a picture anyone who has ever been 20 years old and away from home for the first time will recognize: a girl enjoying herself, taking risks, being a bit of a jerk by all accounts, and not really understanding—or caring—how the perceptions of older adults might play against her.

She was convicted in part because the Lumumba accusation made her look guilty; because she failed to act sad enough; and because the Italian authorities and jury had sexist views of her behavior.

Few Americans regard the Knox case as a feminist issue, or Knox as a victim of discrimination. (She served four years in prison for having a sex life, basically). They should reconsider.

That "argument that spun out of hand" angle is a little more believable.

That anyone ever pursued the whole sex angle is bizarre. I came into the story long after that was dropped so I don't really have a good grasp on why anyone every bought into that in the first place.

Yes, I will agree with that. She's just a normal looking girl, go to any mall any day of the week and you will likely see dozens of girls who look more or less like her.

The whole "people only believe her side because she's pretty" thing is dumber than hell. She's not that pretty and there's a half dozen other good reasons to believe.

**Ouze**

Oops, thanks for posting the text, I forgot about that.

**Kilkrazy**

Obviously a professor of Law at Harvard wouldn't know anything valid about legal opinions.

**LordofHats**

Its a good summary of the case at large in a very brief article. Its entirely possible imo that Knox did kill her flatmate. But that the prosecutor involved is basically the Italian version of the woman who tried Zimmerman here but worse.

The thing that irks me the most is Guede. He should ahve been suspect #1 from the get go but they basically dropped him instantly at his word "I didn't do it" event though his story is essentially that he was taking a dump while Knox returned to the flat and stabbed Kuecher to death where in he immediately ran away and then Knox came back to the flat and undressed Kuecher for... some reason. Maybe he's telling the truth but basically he gave a story and cops just went "okay." Basically a guy with a violent criminal history was taken at his word while Knox who had 0 criminal history became the boogy woman.

**Kilkrazy**

Guede is in prison doing 16 years for murder.

**LordofHats**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Guede is in prison doing 16 years for murder.

Which is really the big wtf as to why they're still pursuing Knox.

**Medium of Death**

LordofHats wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Guede is in prison doing 16 years for murder.

Which is really the big wtf as to why they're still pursuing Knox.

He was doing 30 originally, it was bumped down to 16.

Perhaps indicating that they don't think he was solely responsible. Seems like a massive jump though.

**LordofHats**

The story that all three of them did it makes 0 sense. Knox and he boyfriend never had any contact with Guede until the investigations started. One one of the parties could have done it but the Italians decided they all did it and went after everyone, after a constant back and forth over who they thought did it.

EDIT: Essentially the Italians can't figure out who did it, so they're just legal carpet bombing the case and seeing what sticks. Ignore that Knox and her boyfriend got off on appeal while Guede did not, to which they then push for a reduction in his sentence while continuing to pursue Knox mostly on the demand of public opinion.

**djones520**

Just further goes to show how screwed up Italy's legal system is. If they were linked, they should have been tried together. As far as I'm aware, Guede wasn't brought up at all in the prosecution of Knox (please correct me if I'm wrong). So if there was a connection, why not?

Italy is just screwed up.

**LordofHats**

Italian politics can be corrupt (not Greece corrupt but they're not what you'd call clean) but how much these extends into their judicial system I don't know. Mostly the mess that is the Kuecher trial seems to fall squarely on the shoulders of the prosecutors trying the case. Giuliano Mignini took control of the investigation early one and basically decided on his own what is and is not important for the case.

This is the same guy who in 2010, charged a porn start with sentences worth 16 years in prison for being a stripper in a nightclub on a night some minors slipped into the club as if she should telepathically know that she is in the presence of minors in a club minors are not supposed to be allowed in. Same guy who went after a journalist for reporting his conduct during the Monster of Florence trial (another trial where the Italian courts couldn't decide who did it and sent 4 people to prison for the same crime even though it was impossible for them to have done it together or even in pairs).

The wierdist thing is that the way prosecutors work in Italy, he can commit as many abuses and scandals as he wants and never be removed from his position, i.e. he's accountable to no one.

**techsoldaten**

The thing a lot of people lose perspective of with all this is that Italian justice is wildly political. Big cases generate headlines that influence outcomes in trials.

The real reason this continues, despite all evidence about her innocence, is that about 80% of Italians think Knox is guilty.

**Orlanth**

Medium of Death wrote:
I don't get the whole "She's really attractive thing so she won't face X, Y & Z consequences." She's not that attractive. I mean she isn't ugly, but she is hardly model worthy.

You don't need to 'get it', because there is nothing to get. The presentation that Knox deserves sympathy because of her pretty face isn't rational, but its there all over the media nonetheless.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

My general impression of the case is that it was a farce from the very beginning, fethed up by forensic and legal incompetence and corruption. Media interference and pressure have prevented her ever getting a fair trial.

Whether or not Knox actually is guilty, she was never given a fair trial and never will be, and for that reason alone I think she must be acquitted.

The US Government should tell the Italiens to go feth themselves.

**techsoldaten**

I would be shocked if the Italians make a formal extradition request. We will see what happens at the end of the summer, but... yeah.

**Howard A Treesong**

Has Knox ever taken a polygraph? Not usually admissible in court but would hold away in public opinion.

**Ouze**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The US Government should tell the Italiens to go feth themselves.

But we can't, and probably won't. My feeling is that if they run the course for appeals and request an extradition, that we will turn her over. She has little ground to stand on legally and she is essentially meaningless from a political standpoint.