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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/06 23:39:03
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Mighty Vampire Count
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Martel732 wrote:There's always going to be people who just won't accept the common convention.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote:Martel732 wrote: Mr Morden wrote:Martel732 wrote:WAAC doens't exist. Either you are fielding the best army you can or not. There are reasons to field sub-optimal lists, but fielding good lists does not make you mean or whatever.
Fielding Killer lists in a known casual envrionment and keeping on doing it is the epitome of WAAC players.................. and thats being polite
I can't blame players for taking options that GW made legal. No one can know a priori how much to self-nerf, and so I don't think players should have to give GW an assist in balancing a game that we paid big bucks for.
You could also look at it as trying to get others to improve their game.
Your solution is for Eldar players to take pity on the less fortunate players. WHY are there less fortunate players to begin with?
Sorry but your statement "You could also look at it as trying to get others to improve their game". -means "Everyone should just play with the same broken units from a couple of Codexes as I do" brilliant solution - not,
My solution is for non WAAC people to discuss what sort of game you want and play to that - so that EVRYONE has more fuin - only the very worst WAAC players just want to whitewash their opponents every game.
I agree GW made the intial mistake/s but some players compound the problems by being WAAC................
If there were no broken units, this wouldn't be an issue. Players, in my experience, don't always have or own the models to change up the game in the way you describe. I don't we're going to agree on this because I just don't see how it's a player's job to police GW's idiocy.
Def we are not going to agree - I think that its best if both players enoy the game as much as possible. I also think most really good players don;t like just kurbstomping other players but wnat to beat people of thier own calibre.
Don't own the models - thats what proxying is for...............
We don;t have ot police games - just make polite enquiries about what sort of game a person wants and work it out that way.................thats a civilised way to work and play
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I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 00:47:07
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator
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Dunklezahn wrote: BrotherHaraldus wrote:Plus, if you field a unit of pathfinders, banshees etc, your army isn't OP.
Your codex is.
If my codex is OP my army cannot not be OP. Phrase you statements however you want, I gave an example, but be accurate, sweepingly declaring the entire book OP isn't accurate.
BaalSNAFU wrote:
Quoted for truth. Got to test drive my buddy's eldar vs nids. 1500..I won 13-5.and I was hardly trying. I ran.all of 2 serpents, no wraithknights and only 1 unit of bikes (no council).
So you played one game with *only* 290pts (almost 1/5) of the OP units we are talking about in your army and won so they must be OP? C'mon, thats an almost textbook definition of anecdotal.
Please tell me you're being facetious and aren't really that thick. I said, in my post, that the game was 1500 pts. I mentioned the lack of wraithknights, seer bikes and minimal serpents because the apologists seem to think its only these units, when spammed is what makes eldar cheese. I'm saying they are very wrong. If you need anything else drawn out in crayon I'd be happy to do so.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 10:53:58
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Brainy Zoanthrope
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BaalSNAFU wrote:
Please tell me you're being facetious and aren't really that thick. I said, in my post, that the game was 1500 pts. I mentioned the lack of wraithknights, seer bikes and minimal serpents because the apologists seem to think its only these units, when spammed is what makes eldar cheese. I'm saying they are very wrong. If you need anything else drawn out in crayon I'd be happy to do so.
Hey, keep it civil.
The fact remains almost 1/5 of your total points was Wave Serpents, you were playing what is widely being shouted down as the weakest army in 40k currently and did in one game against an opponent of unknown caliber running an list that for all we know had 9 lictors in it and are touting it as some kind of concrete evidence of Eldar OP-ness, it carries no weight.
Also you jumped on the apologist bandwagon.
Martel732 wrote:
Also, there are many units in the Eldar codex that are quite resilient compared to their marine counterparts. I'm not sure that is a fair statement.
I don't think I'd say many. Wraiths and the Jetseer council in terms of infantry, that's it.
Eldar don't get 2+ saves, don't get 3++ saves, don't get eternal warrior outside the preset Phoenix SC's. They are T3 and only a few units even manage a 3+ save with only jetbikes in the troop section
On a Jetbike they are as tough as a marine on foot. Every aspect warrior or guardian base is either slightly or significantly less durable.
Vehicles are a thornier comparison, Eldar stuff is all 10/10/10 or 12/12/10 and usually packs a 5+/4+ if it can keep moving from cover/holo. That makes it tougher on the move than Predator type chassis and certainly less vulnerable to flanking. They however don't have a Raider grade chassis and their vehicles can't be used to block LOS but generally speaking I'd say yeah, Eldar Falcon chassis vehicles are more durable while their Speeder chassis are less due to open topped.
Martel732 wrote:
What I claimed was that I could build an Eldar list without the three mentioned units and then dominate marines in a 60/40
However you also admitted you have no idea what that list would look like because you never see them, can you not see how that makes the comment come off as unsubstantiated?
They really aren't world beating wonder lists, a lot of it is T3 guys with short range and high lethality guns. Without those guns they'd be fragile, short range *and* weak damage at 66%-100% marine cost.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 11:05:56
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Oh, and Dunkle?
I'd obviously not leave out the strongest things in such a poll.
In a matter of winning or losing, the strongest units are what matters, since it is those units that see the field and decide the battle.
If you play uncompetetively, often using UP units like I do (Which you do, I believe you said) then fine. Any codex in this game can be made to match an uncompetetive army. But when we are talking about OP codices and armies, I assume we are talking competetive play, since why else would you bother?
In a casual environment, any army can shine, so why give a feth?
All this gak still looks like making a fuss for the sake of it.
Eldar is an OP army. That you can get a reasonably balanced army by selecting the weakest things does not mean that the codex as a whole, as well as the average Eldar unit, isn't OP.
If you disagree with that, then it's just you not knowing how descriptive words work in contexts like this.
Sweden is a very rich country. That doesn't mean that poor people doesn't exist here, or that you can't find 100 poor people here, stuff them in a bus and show them to other countries.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/02/07 11:38:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 11:49:08
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Dunklezahn wrote:BaalSNAFU wrote:
Please tell me you're being facetious and aren't really that thick. I said, in my post, that the game was 1500 pts. I mentioned the lack of wraithknights, seer bikes and minimal serpents because the apologists seem to think its only these units, when spammed is what makes eldar cheese. I'm saying they are very wrong. If you need anything else drawn out in crayon I'd be happy to do so.
Hey, keep it civil.
The fact remains almost 1/5 of your total points was Wave Serpents, you were playing what is widely being shouted down as the weakest army in 40k currently and did in one game against an opponent of unknown caliber running an list that for all we know had 9 lictors in it and are touting it as some kind of concrete evidence of Eldar OP-ness, it carries no weight.
Also you jumped on the apologist bandwagon.
Martel732 wrote:
Also, there are many units in the Eldar codex that are quite resilient compared to their marine counterparts. I'm not sure that is a fair statement.
I don't think I'd say many. Wraiths and the Jetseer council in terms of infantry, that's it.
Eldar don't get 2+ saves, don't get 3++ saves, don't get eternal warrior outside the preset Phoenix SC's. They are T3 and only a few units even manage a 3+ save with only jetbikes in the troop section
On a Jetbike they are as tough as a marine on foot. Every aspect warrior or guardian base is either slightly or significantly less durable.
Vehicles are a thornier comparison, Eldar stuff is all 10/10/10 or 12/12/10 and usually packs a 5+/4+ if it can keep moving from cover/holo. That makes it tougher on the move than Predator type chassis and certainly less vulnerable to flanking. They however don't have a Raider grade chassis and their vehicles can't be used to block LOS but generally speaking I'd say yeah, Eldar Falcon chassis vehicles are more durable while their Speeder chassis are less due to open topped.
Martel732 wrote:
What I claimed was that I could build an Eldar list without the three mentioned units and then dominate marines in a 60/40
However you also admitted you have no idea what that list would look like because you never see them, can you not see how that makes the comment come off as unsubstantiated?
They really aren't world beating wonder lists, a lot of it is T3 guys with short range and high lethality guns. Without those guns they'd be fragile, short range *and* weak damage at 66%-100% marine cost.
I have a new army swap project I guess, but even that would be anecdotal. There is no good way to collect the data to substantiate either of our claims it seems. I'm going to continue to consider the Eldar and Tau OP. And probably daemons, because FMC circus is so strong.
But you did neglect the fact that T4 is playing a lot more like T3 these days. The perceived Eldar fragility is not as great as you think. And their firepower is so much greater. AND being unable to punch back well is the cardinal sin of 6th edition, and so marines really can't even take advantage of this "Eldar fragility" because their firepower is so low compared to other lists.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/07 12:03:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 13:23:11
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Brainy Zoanthrope
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BrotherHaraldus wrote:Oh, and Dunkle?
I'd obviously not leave out the strongest things in such a poll.
In a matter of winning or losing, the strongest units are what matters, since it is those units that see the field and decide the battle.
Then all you are gonna get is people voting assuming you mean Jetseer/Serpent Spam and your poll shows that people consider them overpowered, nothing more.
Those units are not always in play so basing an opinion off them gives an inaccurate return of data.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:
If you play uncompetetively, often using UP units like I do (Which you do, I believe you said) then fine. Any codex in this game can be made to match an uncompetetive army. But when we are talking about OP codices and armies, I assume we are talking competetive play, since why else would you bother?
In a casual environment, any army can shine, so why give a feth?
Things can be OP in a casual environment too though which is why it still matters. I agree with the crux of what you are saying here but that's not what we see in these posts, we just see "Eldar are OP" full stop and it's a generalization that hurts the hobby as a whole, see the comment about the kid worried he's be considered cheesy merely for wanting to play Eldar. If people took the time to mention they mean in a competitive/tourney setting there would be no problem, it would take literally seconds.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Eldar is an OP army. That you can get a reasonably balanced army by selecting the weakest things does not mean that the codex as a whole, as well as the average Eldar unit, isn't OP.
If you disagree with that, then it's just you not knowing how descriptive words work in contexts like this.
Sweden is a very rich country. That doesn't mean that poor people doesn't exist here, or that you can't find 100 poor people here, stuff them in a bus and show them to other countries.
The average Eldar unit isn't OP through, this thread has barely raised an eyebrow at saying 3 are and Martel (who I agree with in this instance) isn't even convinced of the 3rd, which is where your example falls down, lets use your example.
A very quick google search, so feel free to correct, puts 7% of Sweden below the poverty line so calling them a poor country would be very inaccurate yes?
The Eldar codex has what? 20 units, maybe a few more, (excluding all the flavours of Phoenix and stuff which skews it further to my point) of which maybe 3 are overpowered, that's 15%.
So in this case you have chosen to give status to the Eldar "nation" based on 15% of it's population. You judged the population on it's outliers and as such skewed your dataset.
Now you get to tourney play and that 15% is the majority of what's seen but it's only one aspect, like basing the wealth statistic of a nation from the net worth of people who bought Ferrari's.
As I say though, I get the crux, if people would emphasise they mean competitive play this whole problem would go away, but blanket statements are lazy and hurt the hobby.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 14:00:32
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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I still do not see how it hurts the hobby.
In my meta, we have agreed that Heldrakes and Lootas are a bit strong, so we fixed them. A few more points for lootas, away with the 360 degree Baleflamer.
I don't see what the big deal is. It's overpowered. Yes, it is. But that's not the end of the world. Look at the codex. Look at the Op things. Fix them. Look at the UP things. Fix them.
It does not have to be perfect or major. One A4 of local meta Codex errata is enough to make this game better.
Eldar has maybe 2-3 units that are more than OP, they are broken. Jetseer council, Wave Serpents, for example.
Then they have a buttload of units that are simply overpowered, but not the point of breaking the game, just bending it unpleasantly. Examples: Windrider jetbikes (Jetbikes for the cost of a tactical marine? Seriously?) or Farseers in themselves (W3 ML3 for 100 points is too good. Look at the Primaris Psyker as a comparison, and weep for humanity (Literally)) or even Warp Spiders.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 14:01:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 14:09:01
Subject: Re:Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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Guys, stop trying to reason with Dunkle. He's 2 or 3 more replies from using the poverty line's impact on Obamacare as a way to prove how balanced Eldar are, and I really don't want to see that can of worms opened.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 14:28:13
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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"Things can be OP in a casual environment too though which is why it still matters."
My BA can be OP in a casual environment if jello-headed players fill their lists with horrible units from codices that have choices that can crush BA.
Once player competence/motivation/experience is a large factor, you can no longer compares two codices. Because I can make BA look like champs against Tau if the Tau list if full of Vespids and Devilfish.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 14:38:55
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Brainy Zoanthrope
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I already said this, the kneejerk blanket statements lead to people feeling bad for wanting to play Eldar at all, that hurts the hobby.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Then they have a buttload of units that are simply overpowered, but not the point of breaking the game, just bending it unpleasantly. Examples: Windrider jetbikes (Jetbikes for the cost of a tactical marine? Seriously?) or Farseers in themselves (W3 ML3 for 100 points is too good. Look at the Primaris Psyker as a comparison, and weep for humanity (Literally)) or even Warp Spiders.
Well that's three and I wouldn't consider a single one OP.
Seriously, play against these units without the big 3 and it's not a big deal. Windriders are good, very good in fact but I dont think OP, they are in fact 121% of the cost of a marine but yeah, they are good. Farseers are ML3, 1A, T3 4++ save models, they have very little durability or damage output outside their powers. Also you know full well the Primaris is part of the old psyker points costs, just look at how much Libbys came down in price. Warp Spiders are another good unit but again with a 12" range and T3, very vulnerable to retaliation.
Void if all you are gonna do is swing by and make personal attacks please save us all the trouble and don't bother. Also Obamacare? Check my nationality flag, like I know enough about the state of welfare in your country to comment on it.
Martel732 wrote:My BA can be OP in a casual environment if jello-headed players fill their lists with horrible units from codices that have choices that can crush BA.
Once player competence/motivation/experience is a large factor, you can no longer compares two codices. Because I can make BA look like champs against Tau if the Tau list if full of Vespids and Devilfish.
So I should start making the comment " BA are OP" without quantifying it because in that one specific instance it seems true? That's basically the point I've been making. A little specificity goes a long way.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 14:46:21
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Dunklezahn wrote:
So I should start making the comment " BA are OP" without quantifying it because in that one specific instance it seems true? That's basically the point I've been making. A little specificity goes a long way.
If a competent player makes a list with the Blood Angels Codex and plays it against a list from Codex: Eldar made by a competent player, the Blood Angels player has little to no chance of winning.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 14:49:20
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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It's more than in one specific instance that Eldar are OP.
Farseers are OP. Compare their cost and capabilities to a librarian. Yeah, not even close.
I think we have a barrier in definitions here. I consider OP to be equal to undercosted. Something that is undercosted, is, by definition of "cost", overpowered, because they are getting more utility than they are paying for.
Windriders, farseers, and warp spiders are all undercosted, and therefore, OP. Most of Codex:Eldar is undercosted, and therefore, OP.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 14:51:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 14:51:14
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Dunklezahn wrote:
So I should start making the comment " BA are OP" without quantifying it because in that one specific instance it seems true? That's basically the point I've been making. A little specificity goes a long way.
If a competent player makes a list with the Blood Angels Codex and plays it against a list from Codex: Eldar made by a competent player, the Blood Angels player has little to no chance of winning.
It basically boils down to this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 14:52:52
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Brainy Zoanthrope
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If a competent player makes a list with the Blood Angels Codex and plays it against a list from Codex: Eldar made by a competent player, the Blood Angels player has little to no chance of winning.
Sorry did we mean to state anyone who doesn't tourney min-max his list for power is not a competent player? There's a lot of personal attacks coming in so I have to check whether it was a poor choice of words or just another one.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 14:53:49
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Dunklezahn wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If a competent player makes a list with the Blood Angels Codex and plays it against a list from Codex: Eldar made by a competent player, the Blood Angels player has little to no chance of winning.
Sorry did we mean to state anyone who doesn't tourney min-max his list for power is not a competent player? There's a lot of personal attacks coming in so I have to check whether it was a poor choice of words or just another one.
You don't have to min-max Eldar to find undercosted/ OP units.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 14:55:51
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Dunklezahn wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If a competent player makes a list with the Blood Angels Codex and plays it against a list from Codex: Eldar made by a competent player, the Blood Angels player has little to no chance of winning.
Sorry did we mean to state anyone who doesn't tourney min-max his list for power is not a competent player? There's a lot of personal attacks coming in so I have to check whether it was a poor choice of words or just another one.
Competent in the sense that you're building a list that's trying to win. Otherwise power level is moot anyway.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 14:57:42
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Dunklezahn wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If a competent player makes a list with the Blood Angels Codex and plays it against a list from Codex: Eldar made by a competent player, the Blood Angels player has little to no chance of winning.
Sorry did we mean to state anyone who doesn't tourney min-max his list for power is not a competent player? There's a lot of personal attacks coming in so I have to check whether it was a poor choice of words or just another one.
Competent in the sense that you're building a list that's trying to win. Otherwise power level is moot anyway.
This. There need to be some baseline assumptions about list building in order to compare codices. This is almost not true with Codex:Eldar, as a random grabbing of units would be probably pretty good.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 15:03:37
Subject: Re:Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Please shut up.
Dunk is clearly either incompetent or a child,
I'm guessin th first,
Blood angels? You play blood angels as blood angels? Thats pretty bad ass.
Leta look at it this way, terminators are the third best unit in the space marine codex
Next is biker captain (or maybe sternguard)
The best Is honor guard.
The third in the eldar codex is wraith knight,
Second is wave serpent,
First is jetseer.
Wraith knight AP 2's the terminators (or is it rending?)
Wave serpents use serpent shield to kill bike captain (or sternguard)
And jetseer council shoots the honout guard to death before they get close.
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*Insert witty and/or interesting statement here* |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 15:05:41
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I'm playing them as BA less and less. Sometimes I whip out the AV 13 wall or 40 FNP ASM for the hell of it.
"Dunk is clearly either incompetent or a child,"
I don't think this is fair. But he is trying to defend the indefensible, in my opinion. Eldar are worse than the GK ever dreamed of in 5th, and that's saying something.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 15:06:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 15:05:53
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Brainy Zoanthrope
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Martel732 wrote:It's more than in one specific instance that Eldar are OP.
Farseers are OP. Compare their cost and capabilities to a librarian. Yeah, not even close.
I think we have a barrier in definitions here. I consider OP to be equal to undercosted. Something that is undercosted, is, by definition of "cost", overpowered, because they are getting more utility than they are paying for.
Windriders, farseers, and warp spiders are all undercosted, and therefore, OP. Most of Codex:Eldar is undercosted, and therefore, OP.
You mean the Higher S/T/A model with 1 less Wound and BS (I think that's still right) ID power weapon usable fighter with far better equipment lists? Seems pretty close to me.
How far does something need to be undercosted before it becomes overpowered though. I use them as totally different terms as they are different words for a reason. The Windrider for example I feel is a little too cheap for what you get, but given their relative strengths and weaknesses I wouldn't call them overpowered.
Warp Spiders gamble a lot on being able to get back out of their 12" fire range to safety before you even mention the odds of them killing themselves (I forget what the odds are for rolling a double on 2 dice) and cost a fair wedge of points. Don't get me wrong, it's a great gun when they get it in range, but that range iless than the average charge distance...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 15:09:10
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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" Seems pretty close to me. "
We're playing different games, then. The quality of Eldar buffs trump all that other useless crap you listed off for the librarian. It's not even remotely even or close.
See? It's a problem of definitions. To me, OP and undercosted are one in the same. It's just a matter of degree. Wave Serpents are highly OP, farseers moderately OP, and Warp Spiders minorly OP.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 15:11:35
Subject: Re:Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Brainy Zoanthrope
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More personal attacks, you then go on to reiterate what's already been covered that the top 3 Eldar are stronger than the top 3 marines, yes we all agree, what about the rest of the dex?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 15:17:34
Subject: Re:Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Dunklezahn wrote:
More personal attacks, you then go on to reiterate what's already been covered that the top 3 Eldar are stronger than the top 3 marines, yes we all agree, what about the rest of the dex?
You want me to go through both codexes?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 15:17:47
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Brainy Zoanthrope
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Martel732 wrote:"We're playing different games, then. The quality of Eldar buffs trump all that other useless crap you listed off for the librarian. It's not even remotely even or close.
See? It's a problem of definitions. To me, OP and undercosted are one in the same. It's just a matter of degree. Wave Serpents are highly OP, farseers moderately OP, and Warp Spiders minorly OP.
Clearly, the Libby does far more direct damage and is capable of killing a melee opponent before it Id's him out, unlike the Seer. When you say you think Farseers are OP is it Divination/telepathy access or Runes of Fate?
Those two things mean different things though, each to their own I guess, but as i say if you felt a model was worth say 12pts and it cost 11pts would you then consider it OP? To me OP is a very strong statement.
Serpents are OP, 10 ish S6-7 hits at 24" on a dedicated transport is *way* too high, even at their cost.
Like I say, Spiders are good but that 12" range is lethal when it comes down to an actual battle. Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you're gonna lay off the personal attacks I'd love to hear what you think is OP in the Eldar dex and why sure.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 15:18:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 15:20:04
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Dunklezahn wrote:Martel732 wrote:"We're playing different games, then. The quality of Eldar buffs trump all that other useless crap you listed off for the librarian. It's not even remotely even or close.
See? It's a problem of definitions. To me, OP and undercosted are one in the same. It's just a matter of degree. Wave Serpents are highly OP, farseers moderately OP, and Warp Spiders minorly OP.
Clearly, the Libby does far more direct damage and is capable of killing a melee opponent before it Id's him out, unlike the Seer. When you say you think Farseers are OP is it Divination/telepathy access or Runes of Fate?
Those two things mean different things though, each to their own I guess, but as i say if you felt a model was worth say 12pts and it cost 11pts would you then consider it OP? To me OP is a very strong statement.
Serpents are OP, 10 ish S6-7 hits at 24" on a dedicated transport is *way* too high, even at their cost.
Like I say, Spiders are good but that 12" range is lethal when it comes down to an actual battle.
If a 12 pt model cost 11pts, that would be minorly OP to me. OP, to me, is just the flip side of undercosted.
Spiders are usually safe in real battles because they shred their targets so badly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 15:56:06
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Brainy Zoanthrope
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Martel732 wrote:
If a 12 pt model cost 11pts, that would be minorly OP to me. OP, to me, is just the flip side of undercosted.
Spiders are usually safe in real battles because they shred their targets so badly.
Fair shout, as I say for me OP is such a strong term especially when you see it on a forum I think for most people OP implies a real deficit in balance as opposed to the little tweaks we all know exist here and there.
Maybe, I mean 10 of em do 11.1 wounds on average so 2.2 rends and 2.9 failed saves assuming 3+ so assuming no cover that's 5 kills which is a heavy punch, no denying that, but it means on an average roll even from their maximum range they are 19" ish away from your troops. Thats well within the threat range for units with jump packs, bikes, transports. Those spiders have committed at that point they are in real danger of a counter strike. Not only are they only T3 with power armour equivalent but in melee, which they are not very much close enough to be caught in, they are only gonna do 0.55 wounds to a MEQ equivalent which means getting swept is a real and present danger even assuming they don't get shot up.
Now I get what you're saying, if your opponent is rocking 5-6 Serpents as well he's gonna maul those units that might retaliate with 50-60 saves, but without those serpents the knock on effect is felt throughout the whole army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 16:00:27
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Dunklezahn wrote:Martel732 wrote:It's more than in one specific instance that Eldar are OP.
Farseers are OP. Compare their cost and capabilities to a librarian. Yeah, not even close.
I think we have a barrier in definitions here. I consider OP to be equal to undercosted. Something that is undercosted, is, by definition of "cost", overpowered, because they are getting more utility than they are paying for.
Windriders, farseers, and warp spiders are all undercosted, and therefore, OP. Most of Codex:Eldar is undercosted, and therefore, OP.
You mean the Higher S/T/A model with 1 less Wound and BS (I think that's still right) ID power weapon usable fighter with far better equipment lists? Seems pretty close to me.
You're paying for S, T, A and BS on a model whose sole function is to cast psychic powers. You're not supposed to fight people with a Librarian other than as a last resort, because if you run into anything remotely competent in CC you lose your Librarian.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 16:03:57
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Dunklezahn wrote:Martel732 wrote:
If a 12 pt model cost 11pts, that would be minorly OP to me. OP, to me, is just the flip side of undercosted.
Spiders are usually safe in real battles because they shred their targets so badly.
Fair shout, as I say for me OP is such a strong term especially when you see it on a forum I think for most people OP implies a real deficit in balance as opposed to the little tweaks we all know exist here and there.
Maybe, I mean 10 of em do 11.1 wounds on average so 2.2 rends and 2.9 failed saves assuming 3+ so assuming no cover that's 5 kills which is a heavy punch, no denying that, but it means on an average roll even from their maximum range they are 19" ish away from your troops. Thats well within the threat range for units with jump packs, bikes, transports. Those spiders have committed at that point they are in real danger of a counter strike. Not only are they only T3 with power armour equivalent but in melee, which they are not very much close enough to be caught in, they are only gonna do 0.55 wounds to a MEQ equivalent which means getting swept is a real and present danger even assuming they don't get shot up.
Now I get what you're saying, if your opponent is rocking 5-6 Serpents as well he's gonna maul those units that might retaliate with 50-60 saves, but without those serpents the knock on effect is felt throughout the whole army.
But there's more. Warp Spiders threaten the sides of our crappy ass tank hulls. They have battlefield flexibility that marines don't have. But the marines are supposed to be generalists.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 16:27:45
Subject: Re:Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Infiltrating Oniwaban
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The butthurt is strong in this thread.
From reading it you'd get the impression that a single Guardian Defender could table 2000 points of Blood Angels cause the space fairies are just that over powered.
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The Imperial Navy, A Galatic Force for Good. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/07 16:27:49
Subject: Yes i know i'm way behind.
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Brainy Zoanthrope
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Martel732 wrote: But there's more. Warp Spiders threaten the sides of our crappy ass tank hulls. They have battlefield flexibility that marines don't have. But the marines are supposed to be generalists. They can, but you have to stick your neck out pretty far to get side hits on a tank with a 12" range, if there are troops on the side of that tank you are gonna have to practically sit in their laps unless the tank is pretty forward, dangerous place to put nearly 200pts of troopers. I was still curious though, are you seeing the classic Fortune/Invis fishing on Farseers for the Seer stars? What about the armies that are pure Serpent spam? AlmightyWalrus wrote: You're paying for S, T, A and BS on a model whose sole function is to cast psychic powers. You're not supposed to fight people with a Librarian other than as a last resort, because if you run into anything remotely competent in CC you lose your Librarian. Well yeah, if you don't use those stats they are wasted, but if that squad gets caught up in melee you are gonna wish you had them. MC's have nothing to fear from a Farseer, a Libby with a Force Weapon on the other hand is a serious threat because if you don't put him down you are in real danger of getting ID'd out. Arschbombe wrote:The butthurt is strong in this thread. From reading it you'd get the impression that a single Guardian Defender could table 2000 points of Blood Angels cause the space fairies are just that over powered. C'mon man there's no need for that, there are some things in the dex that are blatantly too good, I disagree with some of these opinions too but lets try to keep it civil.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/07 16:32:40
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