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Hello, folks.

This came up in a game today, a techmarine with a thunderfire is shot at and the gun takes a few wounds and dies.

Does the techmarine become "free" and is allow to operate as a normal infantry unit?

We checked the rules for artillery and it says if the crew man dies then remove the gun , although it doesn't mention anything if the gun dies?

Perhaps we were reading it In correctly, could somebody please help to point us in the right direction.

Thanks in advance

He just becomes a unit of a techmarine gunner all by himself. IIRC they don't become ICs anymore after their cannon dies.

I thought he became an infantry unit, but I cannot seem to find it in the rulebook.

Would anybody else be able to shine a light on this issue, if you can quote page numbers that would be great.

Thanks

Nope, the unit type doesn't change. Now that this would mean that artillery crew without a gun would still be unable to board transports, enter buildings, or ascend ruins.

The old codex had it so that the techmarine was an IC after his cannon was destroyed so he could go join a squad.


I think now in the new codex he just becomes a character and so cannot join units.

 insaniak wrote:
Nope, the unit type doesn't change. Now that this would mean that artillery crew without a gun would still be unable to board transports, enter buildings, or ascend ruins.

So be would be unable to launch charges? For example

as the techmarine himself is clearly infantry, i would not play it that way.

Pyreguard wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Nope, the unit type doesn't change. Now that this would mean that artillery crew without a gun would still be unable to board transports, enter buildings, or ascend ruins.

So be would be unable to launch charges? For example

Re-read the very first sentence under "Assault" on the Artillery unit type page.

For the entry for Thunderfire Cannon, doesn't it liste the cannon and Techmarine Gunner seperately? The gunner is listed as "Infantry" if I remember right.

It's similar to a Vaul Support Battery in that if it blows up, you'll just have two guardians who kind of sit around and play pattycake with each other.

Insaniak,
Re-Reading your post made me ponder if you where talking about the unit as a whole, or this one individual model, but that is just because I have seen so many 'unit as a whole' arguments when it comes to unit types questions relating to multiple models.
If you do mean the entire unit as the unit type, then I disagree; but only because there is no rules informing us how to figure out the 'Unit Type' of an entire unit.
If you mean the individual model's unit type can not change, then I would sit on the fence but only because Game Workshop can not be trusted to write a rule which doesn't change unit type of an individual model at some point.

Though I would really still love to have instructions on how to deal with the Unit Type of an entire unit. Without such instructions it is simply impossible for us to state, from a Rule as Written point of view, that a unit even has a unit type to begin with let alone if is possible for that unit type to change during the course of the game. Instructions informing us of such would be very appreciated though, there are rules which do effect units types of X or units types Y, but trigger during the point of play where your targeting the entire unit as a whole. This has led to so many questions as to how these rules work, and in particular how they deal with 'mixed units.' For once I would like to be able to state something more then 'how I would Play it' for those situations. If someone can quote me a page or Frequently Asked Question that goes about detailing this massive gap in the rules I would very much like it, it would make my understanding of these situations a great deal more solid.

Both the gunner and artillery piece for the Thunderfire are listed as unit type artillery. So without the cannon he is still artillery by the book?

Does that mean he cannot overwatch then?

 Melcavuk wrote:
Both the gunner and artillery piece for the Thunderfire are listed as unit type artillery. So without the cannon he is still artillery by the book?

If he's still listed as "Artillery" next to his individual unit type, then I'd say so.

Does it say anything about how to work the Techmarine if the TFC dies on the actual unit page rather than simply in the back of the book?

 SRSFACE wrote:
Does it say anything about how to work the Techmarine if the TFC dies on the actual unit page rather than simply in the back of the book?

No additional rules.
You treat it the same as every other artillery unit that has no guns.

 Formosa wrote:
Does that mean he cannot overwatch then?

I don't see anything that restricts the crew from firing personal weapons in Overwatch provided they didn't move the gun.

It was my understanding that artillery could not ow?

Nothing in the artillery rules states that.

The guns can't, but nothing prevents the crew using their own weapons.

Fair enough, can't remember where I saw it but I could have sworn thst artillery were not allowed to make snap shots haha. Oh well

 Formosa wrote:
artillery were not allowed to make snap shots

You did read that. But it only applies to the guns.

Eihnlazer wrote:
as the techmarine himself is clearly infantry, i would not play it that way.

Where do you see that the techmarine is Infantry?

My codex lists him as Artillery.


SRSFace: the Techmarine Gunner is absolutely listed as Artillery unit type.

So if the techmarine is artillery unit type he cannot overwatch then

 Formosa wrote:
So if the techmarine is artillery unit type he cannot overwatch then

You got the answer to that earlier
You can't Overwatch with the gun.
Nothing stops crew from overwatching with their personal weapons.

 Formosa wrote:
So if the techmarine is artillery unit type he cannot overwatch then

No, the sentence you are talking about is talking about gun models.

"Gun models cannot be fired if they move at all in that turn's movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots."

See that's why.I'm asking , rule queries allow other people to search and find this post and now it's clearly spelled out

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
as the techmarine himself is clearly infantry, i would not play it that way.

Where do you see that the techmarine is Infantry?

My codex lists him as Artillery.


SRSFace: the Techmarine Gunner is absolutely listed as Artillery unit type.

I didnt say anything about seeing an entry which declares techmarine gunners to be infantry in the book.

I merely stated that he is "Clearly" infantry since he is a single space marine, on foot.

Eihnlazer wrote:
I merely stated that he is "Clearly" infantry since he is a single space marine, on foot.

The problem being that he is a single space marine, on foot, with the Unit Type: Artillery.

Eihnlazer wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
as the techmarine himself is clearly infantry, i would not play it that way.

Where do you see that the techmarine is Infantry?

My codex lists him as Artillery.


SRSFace: the Techmarine Gunner is absolutely listed as Artillery unit type.

I didnt say anything about seeing an entry which declares techmarine gunners to be infantry in the book.

I merely stated that he is "Clearly" infantry since he is a single space marine, on foot.

Which has a classified Unit Entry that is "Clearly" not Infantry.

Much like the Khonre Lord of scarsa is on treads but is a SH Walker(not tank).

And a Chimera and Hellhound are on the same Chassis, but 1 is Fast and the other is not.

Or that Grot Crew are also Artillery while normal Gretchin are infantry, or any other case where you have artillery guns and crew where the crew have analog models with Infantry units.

Clearly the unit is classified as it's unit type and nothing else.

Unit type is not unit based, it's model based.

"are sometimes utilized by Infantry Artillery teams" Artillery, BRB, page 46.

The gun is Artillery.
The crew is Infantry Artillery.

The only operational difference I see for a crew without a gun and regular infantry is they will automatically get Sweeping Advanced if they fall back from CC (barring intervention from other rules). The rest of the artillery rules specify 'when a gun model is present' or something to that effect that renders the rule non-applicable to a unit without at least one such model.

Your interpretation does not get around a direct statement that the crew are Artillery.