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As someone who has only been playing 40k for about a year and only really played maybe around 30 games or less, I have run into an unusual situation. I am planning on fielding Plague Marines for the first time and I can't figure out if plague knives are by RAW close combat weapons.

Logic would suggest that they are, but I cannot find anywhere in the CSM codex nor the BRB that directly states plague knives are "close combat weapons", they are only ever described as melee weapons. Is there a difference?

Basically what I'm asking is do plague knives combined with the autopistol that Plague Marines get confer +1 attack for having two CCW? Or is this at least generally accepted to be the case?

Page 64 of the Codex presents the profile.
Page 51 of the Basic Rule Book informs us what to do with multiple Melee Weapons, note the use of the word Melee and not 'close combat weapons' within these rules.

JinxDragon wrote:
Page 64 of the codex presents you with the profile you use in close combat.

Hmmm, I already checked there and I see your point, while it still doesn't specifically state that plague knives are close combat weapons according to... English grammar, there are only three weapons listed in detail on the page and none of them are a close combat weapon, so that would imply that plague knives are close combat weapons. It's written poorly but I guess you answered my question, thanks.

Not stating that at all, trying to bring your attention to the weapon type in the profile itself: Melee

I don't normally break rules down like this when I believe they are straight forward, simply not to anger the Game Workshop Lawyers, but it is clear you have a misconception that needs to be corrected. You are putting the card before the horse in this situation; assuming that all weapons that are used in Close Combat have to be Close Combat Weapons to function but this is not true. The rules written for weapons used in close combat are centered around a single term: Melee. These rules do not single out Close Combat Weapons themselves, Close Combat Weapons simply benefit because their weapon profile states they are Weapon Type: Melee.

The Plague Knife, in this example, is not a close combat weapon but it doesn't matter because it falls under the rules for Melee weapons all the same.

JinxDragon wrote:
Not stating that at all, trying to bring your attention to the weapon type in the profile itself.

I'm looking at the codex right now and it says plague knives are melee weapons. The rulebook says melee weapons are "weapons that can only be used in close combat", however in this instance the BRB is phrasing an adjective, whereas "close combat weapon" is a noun. So even the rulebook doesn't technically state that melee weapons are "close combat weapons", it says that melee weapons can only be used in close combat. But not all weapons that can be used in close combat are close combat weapons. Example: pistols.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
You edited your post and I agree with you now, at this point I'm just arguing for the sake of technicality and playing Devil's advocate.

 ZultanQ wrote:
Logic would suggest that they are, but I cannot find anywhere in the CSM codex nor the BRB that directly states plague knives are "close combat weapons", they are only ever described as melee weapons. Is there a difference?

In this edition, a "close combat weapon" is a specific melee weapon with a bare-bones profile (S:user, AP-, SR:Melee). A plague knife is not a close combat weapon; it has its own profile. It is, however, explicitly a Melee weapon, which is what matters to your following question.

 ZultanQ wrote:
Basically what I'm asking is do plague knives combined with the autopistol that Plague Marines get confer +1 attack for having two CCW?

Plague Marines get +1A for having two Melee weapons. (The only reason you'd get +1A for having two CCW's is because both CCW's are Melee weapons.) And their other weapon is a bolt pistol, not an autopistol.

EDIT:

 ZultanQ wrote:
But not all weapons that can be used in close combat are close combat weapons. Example: pistols.

Ironically, while most Melee weapons are not CCW's, pistols actually are.

 ZultanQ wrote:
...at this point I'm just arguing for the sake of technicality and playing Devil's advocate.

There's no technicality. Getting +1A for two Melee weapons does not depend on them being CCW's at all. CCW's are merely a specific type of Melee weapon.

Pyrian wrote:

 ZultanQ wrote:
Logic would suggest that they are, but I cannot find anywhere in the CSM codex nor the BRB that directly states plague knives are "close combat weapons", they are only ever described as melee weapons. Is there a difference?

In this edition, a "close combat weapon" is a specific melee weapon with a bare-bones profile (S:user, AP-, SR:Melee). A plague knife is not a close combat weapon; it has its own profile. It is, however, explicitly a Melee weapon, which is what matters to your following question.

 ZultanQ wrote:
Basically what I'm asking is do plague knives combined with the autopistol that Plague Marines get confer +1 attack for having two CCW?

Plague Marines get +1A for having two Melee weapons. (The only reason you'd get +1A for having two CCW's is because both CCW's are Melee weapons.) And their other weapon is a bolt pistol, not an autopistol.

EDIT:

 ZultanQ wrote:
But not all weapons that can be used in close combat are close combat weapons. Example: pistols.

Ironically, while most Melee weapons are not CCW's, pistols actually are.

...at this point I'm just arguing for the sake of technicality and playing Devil's advocate.There's no technicality. Getting +1A for two Melee weapons does not depend on them being CCW's at all. CCW's are merely a specific type of Melee weapon.

But the BRB states that pistols are close combat weapons, not Melee weapons. Besides, melee weapons are described on pg. 50 as weapons that can only be used in close combat, and this is clearly not the case with pistols.

 ZultanQ wrote:
But the BRB states that pistols are close combat weapons, not Melee weapons.

That statement makes zero sense. A close combat weapon IS a Melee weapon, quite explicitly; see its profile on page 51.

 ZultanQ wrote:
Besides, melee weapons are described on pg. 50 as weapons that can only be used in close combat, and this is clearly not the case with pistols.

This is gotten around by the fact that pistols are only CCW's during the assault phase. Really, as long as the weapon profile you're using doesn't have Melee type, that rule doesn't apply.

Yeah I do that a little here; people are probably used to me doing it by now. I just feel like I don't get the point across well enough so revamp what I was trying to say a few times before I slap away the Obsessive Correcting Disorder and give up. Even weeks afterwards, if the thread sticks around long enough, I keep seeing grammar and spelling mistakes that just rake down my spine and have to be corrected. Particularly when I am half asleep, because then I simply can't stop seeing the mistakes and I do sometimes overlook some things, around 2:30 in the morning like it is right now.

Still, back on topic:
Playing Devil Advocate for what reason?

The rule are pretty straight forward here. The defining term in the Rule is 'Weapon Type: Melee,' which Close Combat Weapons are only one of many. In fact if it wasn't for a restriction on page 50 making the 'Shooting Weapon profiles' only selectable during the shooting phase, or shooting phase like events in other phases, there would be nothing stopping us from selecting a Weapon Type: Heavy profile to use in close combat. This is because there is no restriction stating that only Close Combat Weapons can be used in close combat, it is just impossible to select any weapon without Melee for close combat thanks to the way the two restrictions are written.

Grenades?
Well they are unique because they have both close combat and shooting rules but the profiles within will always relate back to the restrictions on page 50.

Pyrian wrote:

 ZultanQ wrote:
But the BRB states that pistols are close combat weapons, not Melee weapons.

That statement makes zero sense. A close combat weapon IS a Melee weapon, quite explicitly; see its profile on page 51.

 ZultanQ wrote:
Besides, melee weapons are described on pg. 50 as weapons that can only be used in close combat, and this is clearly not the case with pistols.

This is gotten around by the fact that pistols are only CCW's during the assault phase. Really, as long as the weapon profile you're using doesn't have Melee type, that rule doesn't apply.

Oops, looks like I'm stupid, lol. Well at least I know where the rules are about this now, like I said I have played a relatively small amount of games.