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If things go the way they are going in the fluff, then the IOM is F***ed.

The question is not WILL, but WHEN.
There is only war, and the Imperium is literally just clawing its fangs into everything to stay afloat another day.

Well... No.

The story of 40k never actually moves forward. If it did, they'd need to advance technology, and story line, and special characters would grow old and die. They did that, in the Eye of Terror campaign, and have since done a big'ole edit / undo.

So no, the IoM will never fall, but eternally lean out over the abyss. It is the great complaint I have of 40k, more than any other. In the 18 years I've played, the "story" has never changed, and when it did, it was undone.

In Warhammer 40.000 everyone is .

And GW is the first. to fall....

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well... No.

The story of 40k never actually moves forward. If it did, they'd need to advance technology, and story line, and special characters would grow old and die. They did that, in the Eye of Terror campaign, and have since done a big'ole edit / undo.

So no, the IoM will never fall, but eternally lean out over the abyss. It is the great complaint I have of 40k, more than any other. In the 18 years I've played, the "story" has never changed, and when it did, it was undone.

If it did it would just be an illusion anyways. Look at Star Wars, it could certainly be argue that the EU has moved way ahead of what the movies ever covered, but it just feels like giant circle. I stopped reading the novels because every time I started a new series I had the strongest feeling that I had already read about this conflict, some of the names just changed.

So would you rather they just keep the setting as it is or would you rather they pretend to move the story forward and continually implement some gimmick to keep everything the same anyways?

 Orblivion wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well... No.

The story of 40k never actually moves forward. If it did, they'd need to advance technology, and story line, and special characters would grow old and die. They did that, in the Eye of Terror campaign, and have since done a big'ole edit / undo.

So no, the IoM will never fall, but eternally lean out over the abyss. It is the great complaint I have of 40k, more than any other. In the 18 years I've played, the "story" has never changed, and when it did, it was undone.

If it did it would just be an illusion anyways. Look at Star Wars, it could certainly be argue that the EU has moved way ahead of what the movies ever covered, but it just feels like giant circle. I stopped reading the novels because every time I started a new series I had the strongest feeling that I had already read about this conflict, some of the names just changed.

So would you rather they just keep the setting as it is or would you rather they pretend to move the story forward and continually implement some gimmick to keep everything the same anyways?

Star Wars is locked in an endless cycle of the Sith overthrowing the Jedi, then killing each other off, then the Jedi come back and kill the Sith, the Jedi soon forget about the Sith/don't consider them a threat, Jedi are then massacred by the Sith who take over again, and so on and so forth.

Also, while logically the Imperium would fall soonish, it will never fall as it's GW's bestseller. If the plot moves forward, the IOM will probably just seize power, primarchs will come back and/or the Empreror is rezzed, but still be grimdark to sell more models with Chaos and Xenos continuing to exist.

Really, the guys that should collapse are the Eldar. 'We're a dying race on the verge of extinction.' -loses multiple craftworls- 'We're still a dying race that has mysteriously not grown any weaker and still maintains power'.

one of the long running themes of 40k is that "humanity is screwed!" I mean just about every (non imperium) race represents some form of "how humanity will be screwed"

Chaos: humanity is screwed because the gods will eat their soul.
Tyranids: Humanity is screwed because the Tyranids will eat them
Necrons: Humanity is screwed because the Necrons will rise from their "graves" and over run the Imperium
Tau: Humanity is screwed because this new younger and more vibrant race has arisen and will likely supplant them. perhaps humanity will survive but they will no longer be their own masters.
Eldar and Dark Eldar: look at us! we're how humanity could end up screwed.
Orks: there are so many of them, if they ever all unite into a giant WAAARGH! we're screwed.

Oh, I'd rather not look at Star Wars. Movies are just fine by me, and the occasional decent video game. The rest is, at it's heart, well produced fan fic that rehashes what's interesting in the movies. The fact that people argue about what is "canon" and what isn't? Not my cup of tea.


To be honest, what I'd like is for an occasional world wide campaign to be played, that has an impact on the "history" of the game. Have a campaign every 4 or 5 years [once per edition] and then advance the history 20 to 30 years. You can leave special characters in the books, or let them die and become something else. Warp storm lands a reborn Eldrad in the "present" after his supposed death during the 13th Black Crusade... it isn't that hard to justify how a character that should be dead a hundred years or more makes it to the present, or how your battle might take place in the "recent" past.

I mean, they'd rather go to the "past" in the 30k Universe and show all the incredible things that used to exist that were incredibly powerful... but that's all gone now! The 40k Universe feels cripplingly static. I've always enjoyed the game, but the fluff grew old on me as soon as the edit / undo of the 13th Black Crusade began. There's only so many times I can read about the same events over 18 years.

IMHO what would be better is for GW to "world build" take small little areas and focus on them. consider the FFG's RPG line, it basicly focuses on a sector and details it. I think 40K might benifit from spotlighting regions a bit.

Currently all signs are the Imperium is screwed if the plot ever advances. However, even if GW does decide to advance the plot (not saying they will, though IMHO it'd be nice), they clearly left tons of things open for the Imperium which will keep hope alive. The most obvious is many of the Primarchs could simply be brought back, as GW has always left open the possibility of most of their returns. However, there are other ways the Imperium could get a big boost to keep it up. Discovery of really powerful STCs or anti-chaos rituals, for one thing, could pull the Imperium's ass out of the fire should it happen. Furthermore, there are potential allies out there for the Imperium if the gak really hits the fan. While the Imperium despises the Tau and Eldar, I'm sure it'll make more and more of an exception if the situation gets particularly bad.

Finally, if the Imperium's situation ever gets RIDICULOUSLY screwed yet GW wants to keep it alive (which they will), they could always like, bring back the Emperor in some form or fashion, Emperor's power to be determined depending on level of severity of the Imperium's situation (maybe he'll just come back as a regular Emperor and be like Karl Franz in Warhammer Fantasy, or maybe the situation will be so bad that GW could just bring him back as a god to smack back whatever ridiculously terrible situation is currently under way)

GW clearly has kept open tons of options to keep the Imperium alive (and the stalemate going) if it ever decides to advance the plot further.

The IOM is butt fisted no matter what but even in a total defeat, mankind will probably survive. There are so many worlds with humans on them that it is unlikely they will be hunted down and scoured completely off the face of the galaxy.

But even if things go well and some primarchs come back or cypher releases the star child or whatever, the IOM is probably going away.

The end of The Imperium of Man? Most definitely. The end of Humanity? Only if the Tyranids win.

The Story is predicated on this being the "END OF DAYS".

It's perpetual in the sense that the Simpsons is perpetual. If you read across all the fluff, it clearly shows that the End Time is near, Golden throne failing, Armageddon, 13th Crusade, Tyranids, Tau, Eldar on the Brink of annihilation. Essentially Humanity is about to fall, but because the story doesn't advance past this point in time it never ends. Imagine it more of a Setting in a Time..

The funny thing is, to advance the story, they are going the opposite direction, 40k is a dead end, so they are backfiling the 30k end of the timeline which gives more freedom to re-invent or clarify things.

There are also other Heresy's in the Canon, Goge Vandire and the Reign of Blood in the 36th Millenium for example. There is still alot of lee-way for them to re-imagine or invent in the timeline.

There is much to backfill but the 40k storyline is effectively static.

It's just recycled, heresy, epic ness, more heresy and an obvious fated return.....

The status quo will never shift, the story will never progress, to think otherwise is heresy of the greatest degree.

Funny thing about the IOM - expansion and technology took place while quashing the backwater view of religion and superstition. Emperor goes down, and humans do pretty much the exact opposite of what he wanted.

Makes me wonder if anyone has ever tried actually talking to the guy, or is just the puppet political parties holding control because only *they* can hear the true words. either way, man is boned. Cadian gate will eventually get overrun, bugs will mass (by accident or not) or orks will figure out how to work together. Too dispersed, too much overhead in the government - and their own stubbornness to relearn what they lost will see them decline. In a way, the Tau are the spiritual successors to Man - and honestly, out of everyone they're the best candidate to bring control to this chaotic place.

Well, funny thing...

In earlier editions of the game, when the Emperor actually could talk, he wasn't much of an Arch-Atheist or Super-Science guy, just Pro-Humanist.

This whole Great Crusade=Age of Enlightenment/Post-Heresy=Dark Ages vibe is relatively new.

ncshooter426 wrote:
Funny thing about the IOM - expansion and technology took place while quashing the backwater view of religion and superstition. Emperor goes down, and humans do pretty much the exact opposite of what he wanted.

Makes me wonder if anyone has ever tried actually talking to the guy, or is just the puppet political parties holding control because only *they* can hear the true words. either way, man is boned. Cadian gate will eventually get overrun, bugs will mass (by accident or not) or orks will figure out how to work together. Too dispersed, too much overhead in the government - and their own stubbornness to relearn what they lost will see them decline. In a way, the Tau are the spiritual successors to Man - and honestly, out of everyone they're the best candidate to bring control to this chaotic place.

They do try learn though, thats why they write every detail about every planet and look into eldar/tau tech when they can find it and so on. They just have to be careful not to remake killer robots again and so on. Also during full time war its hard to rearm the military and let alone replace factories and train new workers how to use the machines and so on. Then you got the constant (and righfully so) fear of aliens and gots trying to smite you its only normal for the imperium to be what it is. In other words, if the imperium where different, it would probably be dead already.

Its like blaming zombie apocalypse survivors for not having invented new T.Vs and cars after the government got eaten and a new provisional government was set up and everyone was working for food and fighting zombies day and night. Its not their fault they are using scraps from the past and clinging to hope, but they need to in order to live. Its that or untold misery of being eaten alive. Im sure you'd choose life over that. Same with the imperium, it has to be done or they will die.

Plus look at eldar tech and see how thats worked out for them. Also if the humans are screwed so are the tau. Id like to see them survive whatever just killed the largest united empire in the galaxy haha.

The emperor stomping out religion, if anything was a huge mistake. Alexander the great only did so well because he respected the cultures and religious views of those he conquered. Something thats vital when you are killing people and subjegating them (like the emeror was).

In short, the imperium is nigh on perfect to do what it needs to. Survive.

Imperial forces do not (overtly) disassemble tau gear. It's xenos, and therefor heretical to do so. They also consume massive amounts of raw materials for war production, and there *ARE* those who actually think (that is, understand the principles behind the materials) but they're often hunted down or exploited. They have the very real capability of bettering their equipment, however the strangle hold on all things scientific hinders that. It's an endless cycle. The religious aspect is what is killing the Imperium - not their outright manifest destiny approach to humans being superior. As far as constant war - this is true, and innovation in times of war is difficult. But let's be very clear here - the war is not everywhere constantly. Hell, most folks in the IOM never even see a SM or the like, and many live out their lives without a single hint of xenos interaction. As such, we cannot draw the conclusion that there is a lack of resource and time available for some world, some where, to be dedicated to nothing but RE or creation of new gear.

It's a massive, complex and deep clusterfeth

ncshooter426 wrote:
Imperial forces do not (overtly) disassemble tau gear. It's xenos, and therefor heretical to do so. They also consume massive amounts of raw materials for war production, and there *ARE* those who actually think (that is, understand the principles behind the materials) but they're often hunted down or exploited. They have the very real capability of bettering their equipment, however the strangle hold on all things scientific hinders that. It's an endless cycle. The religious aspect is what is killing the Imperium - not their outright manifest destiny approach to humans being superior. As far as constant war - this is true, and innovation in times of war is difficult. But let's be very clear here - the war is not everywhere constantly. Hell, most folks in the IOM never even see a SM or the like, and many live out their lives without a single hint of xenos interaction. As such, we cannot draw the conclusion that there is a lack of resource and time available for some world, some where, to be dedicated to nothing but RE or creation of new gear.

It's a massive, complex and deep clusterfeth

I read about some imperium scientists looking through eldar gear and many lost their loves when they activated a plasma grenade. Cant remember where i read it though.

And if a few worlds where to stop producing for just 2 weeks, then thats a huge blow to production. there is no time to think when everything has to be 100% full production. Thinkers arent killed nor are they prosecuted. Who comes up with war strategies and logistics and so forth... thinkers. Its those who think dangerously who are stomped out. Would you let the guy next to you talk about things unknown when the posiibility of him becoming possessed is a reality? I think not. Religion keeps that guy who knows nothing outside his planet/town safe from demons etc (which exist in 40k). Notice how the humans without religion are brainwashed by tau or belong to chaos... thats why 40k religion is important.

There is nothing wrong with the imperium as its doing the only thing it can, survive.

Its harder to upgrade (and more expensive) your industry then it is to start a fresh one. Advancing tech (when they dont really need to) will just soak up time and delay their production and short term will cripple them horrifically.

I mean unless you can come up with a solution that doesnt result in a loss of production and huge amounts of time, then yea i think they are bang on doing it right given the situation.

The 40k plot moving forward would be very boring. It is not possible to kill of any of the major factions, so like Star Wars, 40k would just be locked into an eternal cycle of repeating stuff.

Also, the Imperium can't really advance technology, as the AdMech does not even understand most current Imperial technology anymore, let alone that they could actually advance it. The Imperium's technology is degrading, rather than advancing.
Also, any technology not originating from a STC copy is heresy, so it would be impossible to invent anything 'new'. Technology can only be recovered, not newly invented.
The only way the Imperium could significantly progress in technology would be if a complete, working STC is found.

The Imperium had really kind of lost all the emperor stood for. The whole Heresy gak, and all the religious ruled society.

On topic
Most of the technology is mass produced, especially the imperial Guard's and the whole basis of the Imperium is not about inventing new weapons to fight off the enemy, but about beating them heroically and "for da emprah".

The IOM is basically fighting a war of attrition, and like the others have said. A endless, depressing cycle of death and destruction.

The interesting thing here, is that nature, to some degree is the same as life in 40k? Granted Darwinian Evolution says overtime things will slowly change, but to me, 40k is like the battle for species survival we see played out all over Earth, from microscopic organisms to complex organisms and creatures?

We just like to think we can accelerate things with technology, medicine and genetics. We say stagnation from a technological point of view, but isn't the human race evolving more Psykers? Is this the slow change? Is this the thing that the Emperor, as a perpetual foresaw?

Do not click this if you haven't read HH UNREMEMBERED EMPIRE

Well. The IOM is either gonna do one of three things:
1. Become an Eldar-like race of super-psykers capable of holding their own against everything
2. Get completely decimated/enslaved by a xenos race
3 keep on plodding.

The likely thing is that some of the primarchs will come back, I'm thinking Lion El'Johnson or Leman Russ are the most likely (Lion is only in cryo so him most likely, especially as the WITD say that "the time is nigh" or something.

The Imperium DID fall. It's currently a shell of it's former self and is barely able to govern what it still controls.

My take on the fluff advancing would be that essentially it leads to an escalation and reshaping of the factions. Specifically on the IoM I'd see it getting pushed back to the brink before the Primarchs & Emperor return, to lead a reformed Neo-Imperium forward under the doctrine of Imperial Truth rather than the worship of the Emperor. But in doing that reformation, while they gain in the quality of forces through the re-emergence of incredibly powerful beings & a rediscovery and/or invention of new tech, they lose in numbers as other races become increasingly capable of absorbing the disillusioned & weak.

^This^

I'd like to see the Big E come back and lead the Imperium back out into the galaxy once Cypher finaly reaches the throne room or the throne breaks. There's still the little matter of that hole in the basement that he's holding closed, but once that is sorted and he gathers a few of his sons back to his banner then the real work can begin.
Some may well resist his or not believe his return, while others will call it heresy once they find out that he is outlawing religion (again). Expect mass desertions to the Tau and Chaos as others claim domion over their own and surounding worlds in the hope of carving out their own little empire. And that's just within the the IoM.
Other races with take advantage of the fractured Imperium so it will be plenty grimdark still, and well, the Big E and few sons can't be everywhere. And even still, where they go will be the hardest, bloodiest, dirtist fighting there is so they could be bogged down in that particular theatre for decades.
i think that would pacify the people who say 'There is only war' while offering a glimmering hope to others who wish to see the IoM get off at least one of it's knees.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
^This^

I'd like to see the Big E come back and lead the Imperium back out into the galaxy once Cypher finaly reaches the throne room or the throne breaks. There's still the little matter of that hole in the basement that he's holding closed, but once that is sorted and he gathers a few of his sons back to his banner then the real work can begin.
Some may well resist his or not believe his return, while others will call it heresy once they find out that he is outlawing religion (again). Expect mass desertions to the Tau and Chaos as others claim domion over their own and surounding worlds in the hope of carving out their own little empire. And that's just within the the IoM.
Other races with take advantage of the fractured Imperium so it will be plenty grimdark still, and well, the Big E and few sons can't be everywhere. And even still, where they go will be the hardest, bloodiest, dirtist fighting there is so they could be bogged down in that particular theatre for decades.
i think that would pacify the people who say 'There is only war' while offering a glimmering hope to others who wish to see the IoM get off at least one of it's knees.

Eh, I'd prefer it if the Alpha Legion also played a part. Have the majority remain Chaotic, but Alpharius and Omegon form a joint strike with Cypher leading their non corrupted forces on the Golden Throne, and rip the Emperor off it, only for him to regenerate and it revealed that the Golden Throne was keeping him from regenerating/was wounded by the powers of chaos and needed his body to fully die to regenerate. However, as numerous Chapters and armadas were routed back to Terra to defend against the 'invasion', the Archenemy makes a fell swoop and fully smashes the Cadian gate in the confusion while Orks continue to poor in, more Necrons wake up, Tyranids launch more tendrils against the IOM, and the Tau start to violently expand.

Story doesn't change much, but the Emperor is back fixing humanity, but in turn with the Inquisition slowly being disabled, Chaos has gained more ground and more people, and is swallowing up territory around the Eye of Terror and fortifying it as the IOM engages in 'galactic trench warfare' in order to push chaos back into Eye. Alpharius is tasked with leading the loyalists against Chaos while Omegon rallies forces to both defend the frontier and search for the missing Primarchs. Guilliman defrosts eventually to unite Ultramar again while a whole new Hive Fleet converges on the sector.

Status quo is largely the same, but events get more interesting.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
^This^

I'd like to see the Big E come back and lead the Imperium back out into the galaxy once Cypher finaly reaches the throne room or the throne breaks. There's still the little matter of that hole in the basement that he's holding closed, but once that is sorted and he gathers a few of his sons back to his banner then the real work can begin.
Some may well resist his or not believe his return, while others will call it heresy once they find out that he is outlawing religion (again). Expect mass desertions to the Tau and Chaos as others claim domion over their own and surounding worlds in the hope of carving out their own little empire. And that's just within the the IoM.
Other races with take advantage of the fractured Imperium so it will be plenty grimdark still, and well, the Big E and few sons can't be everywhere. And even still, where they go will be the hardest, bloodiest, dirtist fighting there is so they could be bogged down in that particular theatre for decades.
i think that would pacify the people who say 'There is only war' while offering a glimmering hope to others who wish to see the IoM get off at least one of it's knees.

Yep you've got what I'm saying. I would also see elements of the Necrons gaining significantly as the C'Tan and specifically the Void Dragon re-emerge with the big fella escaping his Martian incarceration and taking with him a large number of the Cult Mechanicus (perhaps even some of the Iron Hands themselves) after having masqueraded as the Omnissiah for millennia. A new round of biotransference sees a whole number of human based Necrons & Pariahs created, with key Phaerons & their Dynasties serving under the C'Tan squaring off firmly against the ones they saw as traitors under the rebellion of the Silent King & Triarch... yes that may require a slight retcon after what they did to the Necron fluff in the latest book but considering where we're going with this it's not a massive leap whatsoever (plus you get some truly awesome characters out of it).

Basically everyone gains, and yet everyone loses for another stalemate just even more dramatically than currently.

I kind of think it'd be awesome if the Emperor officially died, and the primarchs come back too late. They'd lead their legions again, but because no one can get along in the 41st millenia, it'd fracture the remnants of the Imperium even further.