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Hi everyone, so I recently started using Chaos Daemons as my main army, and I was wondering how this army mainly deals with Grey Knights, seeing as they
are so tailored to killing Daemons. For example I was looking through their codex, and I wasn't sure how to deal with their HQ Kaldor Draigo. I've built a flying
circus army, which has a lot of heavy hitting Daemon Princes including Be'lakor, and all I've really come up with is taking a wound or two off with lots of flickering fire
then coming in with Be'lakor buffed with invisibility and the grimoire. I haven't faced grey knights yet, but I personally just like to know how to deal with things ahead of time,
so any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

you basically cant kill draigo with beatsticks, to win against grey knights you need to flood them with high number of modells. Grey knights lack modell-count and cannot cover the field, daemons can cover the field very well and can bogg down the small grey knight units effectively killing them with numbers of wounds that go through. Grey knights love fighting big MCs which cost alot of points and can be insta-killed by anyone of their models so stay away from them.

Weight of numbers is our Achille's Heel. Its easier to overwhelm us with more models/more dice than to actually bother killing us. If you can play to the mission with whatever models you have that are not engaged in tying GK units down, you win. GK win by getting you to panic and play stupid.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Weight of numbers is our Achille's Heel. Its easier to overwhelm us with more models/more dice than to actually bother killing us. If you can play to the mission with whatever models you have that are not engaged in tying GK units down, you win. GK win by getting you to panic and play stupid.

SJ

well that totally makes sense, unfortunately my flying circus list doesn't really have too many models either in comparison, well at least I think it does. I'm not too sure how many models GK would have at 2000 points. Here is my list
for comparison.

HQ-630

Fateweaver-

Daemon Prince-
-DoS
-Level 3
-Greater Reward (Lash of Despair)
-Greater Reward
-Flight
-WF armor

Troops-270

Plaguebearers x10-
Daemonettes x20-

Heavy Support-700

Daemon Prince-
-DoT
-Level 3
-Exalted Reward (Grimore)
-Greater Reward
-Flight
-WF armor

Daemon Prince-
-DoT
-Level 3
-Greater Reward
-Greater Reward
-Flight
-WF armor

CSM Allied Detachment-400

Be'lakor-

Chaos Cultists x10-

Total-2000

At 2000 points, I firld about 30-36 models in my GK army.

SJ

All you need to do is avoid combat with your MC at all costs and you will be fine. GK really don't have an answer to daemonettes in combat.

I agree with herpguy (nice name..) that you just avoid combat with your MC unless you have iron arm. Fateweaver should stay in the air and shoot. Use your MC to engage AV you need to destroy and if they get iron arm destroy stuff with them.

Another option is going all shooting with all your princes and avoiding CC completely. You could just go straight telepathy with all of them. Shriek isnt too great on GK but there is some fun stuff that you can get and their psychic defense isnt

Belakor can still kick ass in CC. He should also be throwing invis down on your daemonettes to get them to the other side of the board. Watch out for psych out grenades because those are annoying as .

jakl277 wrote:
I agree with herpguy (nice name..) that you just avoid combat with your MC unless you have iron arm. Fateweaver should stay in the air and shoot. Use your MC to engage AV you need to destroy and if they get iron arm destroy stuff with them.

Another option is going all shooting with all your princes and avoiding CC completely. You could just go straight telepathy with all of them. Shriek isnt too great on GK but there is some fun stuff that you can get and their psychic defense isnt

Belakor can still kick ass in CC. He should also be throwing invis down on your daemonettes to get them to the other side of the board. Watch out for psych out grenades because those are annoying as .

Alright I guess for the most part I'll be having to kite them more often than anything. Fateweaver is always in the air and back so to avoid getting grounding tests. As for spells what i usually do is, have the slaanesh prince roll all 3 on biomancy for Iron arm or endurance. The 2 tzeentch princes roll twice on biomancy, hopefully get iron or endurance, and the last ML is for Flickering fire. At least one usually gets iron arm (hopefully the slaanesh since he has the lash of despair), and this way they just pass buffs to each other. I don't think I'd go into CC with any MC unless they had iron arm for sure, but is this still risky? I think if I went with trying the CC route, I'd take out 2 Daemonettes to give the one Tzeentch prince the staff of change for +2 Strength as well. Otherwise all shooting, I have all the tzeentch spells which are ok, but it is alot of shots, the lash (which is getting a little too close for comfort i think), and all telepathy.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
At 2000 points, I firld about 30-36 models in my GK army.

SJ

Anywhere between 30-45 will be where a great Pure GK force is at.

I think my last 1850 list was 38.

High model count is the bane of the Knights

Flood us with bodies and we arent in a good place

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
High model count is the bane of the Knights

Flood us with bodies and we arent in a good place

Unless we're purifiers.

use fateweavers AP2 shots, Belakor can hold his own in combat with invis and EW, and the daemonettes can really cause some pain with weight of attacks and their rending attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ductvader wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
High model count is the bane of the Knights

Flood us with bodies and we arent in a good place

Unless we're purifiers.

If the list is purifiers then FMCs are just gonna shlt down their necks

Dont take FMC spam against force weapon spam!

Against purifier lists, FMC spam is fine. Don't land right away, fly around, vector strike, use their shooting attacks. A lot of people don't understand how to use a daemon prince and just shove them into combat asap, that tactic is incorrect.

Just be weary of going for all psy shooting when grey knights do have some better deny the witch rolls (everyone get 5+ at least). That means a good portion of your shooting will negated every once in a while.

Your stuff shouldnt be landing until late game anyway but the way you said you roll for powers is pretty standard. Go into CC with belakor and anything with EW. Shoot otherwise. Make sure to focus fire when you use flickering. Fateweaver has Ap2 beam

Vector Striking also means being subjected to torrents of S5 Stormbolter fire, Last time I got overrun by Daemons as GKs it was fiends...tons of the ugly little things.

Daemonettes are better than fiends against knights due to force weapons i think.

Vector striking takes theplace of a shooting attack so dont do it unless youre using all your warp charges on buffs.

jakl277 wrote:
Daemonettes are better than fiends against knights due to force weapons i think.

Vector striking takes theplace of a shooting attack so dont do it unless youre using all your warp charges on buffs.

It was a mix of daemonettes, fiends, and slaanesh? chariots.

And a Bloodthirster flanking with khorne dogs and a portalglyph.

 ductvader wrote:
Vector Striking also means being subjected to torrents of S5 Stormbolter fire, Last time I got overrun by Daemons as GKs it was fiends...tons of the ugly little things.

How are you being hit with more than usual amounts of storm bolter when you're vector striking? You're still in swooping mode, flying over targets.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Vector Striking also means being subjected to torrents of S5 Stormbolter fire, Last time I got overrun by Daemons as GKs it was fiends...tons of the ugly little things.

How are you being hit with more than usual amounts of storm bolter when you're vector striking? You're still in swooping mode, flying over targets.

You're choosing to swoop near stormbolters.

Every squad will have about 16 S5 Bolter shots and 8 S7 Psycannon shots. Skyfire isn't really an issue, and many players will just prescience as a form of AA anyways.

Choosing to try and vector strike for a few turns isn't such a reliable tactic as you put yourself in range of massed shots, and if you get downed, a losing assault.

Daemonettes are a much better tactic.

 ductvader wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Vector Striking also means being subjected to torrents of S5 Stormbolter fire, Last time I got overrun by Daemons as GKs it was fiends...tons of the ugly little things.

How are you being hit with more than usual amounts of storm bolter when you're vector striking? You're still in swooping mode, flying over targets.

You're choosing to swoop near stormbolters.

Every squad will have about 16 S5 Bolter shots and 8 S7 Psycannon shots. Skyfire isn't really an issue, and many players will just prescience as a form of AA anyways.

Choosing to try and vector strike for a few turns isn't such a reliable tactic as you put yourself in range of massed shots, and if you get downed, a losing assault.

Daemonettes are a much better tactic.

Do you even play daemons? Vector strikes between your fmcs will nuetralize most of a squad. You don't vector strike indivudual squads, you focus one down, then unload. Also, you run the daemonettes in conjunction with the FMC spam, and portalglyph out pink horrors on your objectives. If you take 3-4 princes and vector strike, then shoot a single unit (assuming their armor 3 which I had previously mentioned) that unit is pretty close to toast. Rinse and repeat for every squad of purifiers they have. And if they're trying to dump shots on slaanesh princes with iron arm then let them waste their shots on them and let the daemonettes fly up the table unharmed.

I'm not a Grey Knight player but doesn't one of Draigos rules make him able to remove any Daemon he wounds in combat from play? Daemonbane or something. If so I would not touch that guy with Be'lakor or an Iron Armed Prince as he would still one shot them :/

 Zande4 wrote:
I'm not a Grey Knight player but doesn't one of Draigos rules make him able to remove any Daemon he wounds in combat from play? Daemonbane or something. If so I would not touch that guy with Be'lakor or an Iron Armed Prince as he would still one shot them :/

GK Champions can do it upon their death, Valeria can do it with her box.

Draigo just becomes S10 against daemons and all GK nemesis weapons will remove a daemon from play if the fail a LD test following taking a single wound.

Draigo's sword is not actually a nemesis weapon though, and neither is crowe's or stock techmarines.

akwing00 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Weight of numbers is our Achille's Heel. Its easier to overwhelm us with more models/more dice than to actually bother killing us. If you can play to the mission with whatever models you have that are not engaged in tying GK units down, you win. GK win by getting you to panic and play stupid.

SJ

well that totally makes sense, unfortunately my flying circus list doesn't really have too many models either in comparison, well at least I think it does. I'm not too sure how many models GK would have at 2000 points. Here is my list
for comparison.

HQ-630

Fateweaver-

Daemon Prince-
-DoS
-Level 3
-Greater Reward (Lash of Despair)
-Greater Reward
-Flight
-WF armor

Troops-270

Plaguebearers x10-
Daemonettes x20-

Heavy Support-700

Daemon Prince-
-DoT
-Level 3
-Exalted Reward (Grimore)
-Greater Reward
-Flight
-WF armor

Daemon Prince-
-DoT
-Level 3
-Greater Reward
-Greater Reward
-Flight
-WF armor

CSM Allied Detachment-400

Be'lakor-

Chaos Cultists x10-

Total-2000

Good list, a bit lacking in the troop department unless you are taking the Portalglyph, but for flying circus weak troops is given. If he is playing MEQ grey knights then it will be worth it to drop a daemon prince in exchange for a Heldrake and upgrading Cultists to Plague Marines as that AP 3 Flamer weapon is the utter BANE of MEQ, the more expensive the better. Grey Knights do tend to struggle killing them as well, relying on a 6 to hit then a 6 to rend on a psycannon is asking a lot while Psyriflemen strength 8 Auto cannons really aren't that effective, getting 1 glance/pen if you are lucky and if it isn't an explode or weapon destroyed result you aren't doing any good. If he is TEQ then I would still suggest dropping the prince in exchange an Ectoplasma Canon Forgefiend, with such easy access to prescience/Misfortune these things are BEASTS. Assuming he is running Draigo then it's only reasonable to assume that there are some Paladins, which are easy pickings for Strength 8 (instant Death, ignoing FnP) Ap 2 TL (Prescience) re-rolling to wound (Daemon Engine) small blasts of death all the while giving you a durable scoring unit. It is also something different from most netlists, so you can feel much happier about your self and no one can say you just play netlists which happens often with powerful armies.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

akwing00 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Weight of numbers is our Achille's Heel. Its easier to overwhelm us with more models/more dice than to actually bother killing us. If you can play to the mission with whatever models you have that are not engaged in tying GK units down, you win. GK win by getting you to panic and play stupid.

SJ

well that totally makes sense, unfortunately my flying circus list doesn't really have too many models either in comparison, well at least I think it does. I'm not too sure how many models GK would have at 2000 points. Here is my list
for comparison.

HQ-630

Fateweaver-

Daemon Prince-
-DoS
-Level 3
-Greater Reward (Lash of Despair)
-Greater Reward
-Flight
-WF armor

Troops-270

Plaguebearers x10-
Daemonettes x20-

Heavy Support-700

Daemon Prince-
-DoT
-Level 3
-Exalted Reward (Grimore)
-Greater Reward
-Flight
-WF armor

Daemon Prince-
-DoT
-Level 3
-Greater Reward
-Greater Reward
-Flight
-WF armor

CSM Allied Detachment-400

Be'lakor-

Chaos Cultists x10-

Total-2000

Good list, a bit lacking in the troop department unless you are taking the Portalglyph, but for flying circus weak troops is given. If he is playing MEQ grey knights then it will be worth it to drop a daemon prince in exchange for a Heldrake and upgrading Cultists to Plague Marines as that AP 3 Flamer weapon is the utter BANE of MEQ, the more expensive the better. Grey Knights do tend to struggle killing them as well, relying on a 6 to hit then a 6 to rend on a psycannon is asking a lot while Psyriflemen strength 8 Auto cannons really aren't that effective, getting 1 glance/pen if you are lucky and if it isn't an explode or weapon destroyed result you aren't doing any good. If he is TEQ then I would still suggest dropping the prince in exchange an Ectoplasma Canon Forgefiend, with such easy access to prescience/Misfortune these things are BEASTS. Assuming he is running Draigo then it's only reasonable to assume that there are some Paladins, which are easy pickings for Strength 8 (instant Death, ignoing FnP) Ap 2 TL (Prescience) re-rolling to wound (Daemon Engine) small blasts of death all the while giving you a durable scoring unit. It is also something different from most netlists, so you can feel much happier about your self and no one can say you just play netlists which happens often with powerful armies.

What AP3 weapon is exclusive to plague marines?

I actually consider GK to be a fairly easy match up for Daemons. You just have to approach the problem a little differently. You are WAAAY faster than he is, and can concentrate force much better.

Don't blindly send Princes into combat. If you do send a Prince in, stack the odds in your favor. Stack Iron Arm/Invisibility/Grimoire/Prescience/Endurance on your own Prince and go to town. Invisible/Grimoired Daemonettes are another strong option. Don't fight fair at all. Out maneuver him and use all your resources on one point of his Army. Be'lakor in particular shouldn't have an issue.

I was referring to the Bale Flamer for the Heldrake, the upgrade from Cultists was for a durable troop squad, but now I think about it that isn't possible because he hasn't got a Nurgle lord :( So Cultists is the best he is going to get

Good list, a bit lacking in the troop department unless you are taking the Portalglyph, but for flying circus weak troops is given. If he is playing MEQ grey knights then it will be worth it to drop a daemon prince in exchange for a Heldrake and upgrading Cultists to Plague Marines as that AP 3 Flamer weapon is the utter BANE of MEQ, the more expensive the better. Grey Knights do tend to struggle killing them as well, relying on a 6 to hit then a 6 to rend on a psycannon is asking a lot while Psyriflemen strength 8 Auto cannons really aren't that effective, getting 1 glance/pen if you are lucky and if it isn't an explode or weapon destroyed result you aren't doing any good. If he is TEQ then I would still suggest dropping the prince in exchange an Ectoplasma Canon Forgefiend, with such easy access to prescience/Misfortune these things are BEASTS. Assuming he is running Draigo then it's only reasonable to assume that there are some Paladins, which are easy pickings for Strength 8 (instant Death, ignoing FnP) Ap 2 TL (Prescience) re-rolling to wound (Daemon Engine) small blasts of death all the while giving you a durable scoring unit. It is also something different from most netlists, so you can feel much happier about your self and no one can say you just play netlists which happens often with powerful armies.

I like the idea of adding the heldrake in for a different scenario, I just have a couple of comments on your suggestions. I don't think the plague marines would work as they would count as allied elite not a troop choice (I'd still have to take the cultists), and if I cut out lets say the Tzeentch DP without the grimoire (345 points) I could fit in a heldrake yes, but not an effective PM squad with 2 special weapons and Rhino, without taking away from something else in the list. Moving onto the Forgefiend, yes the Ectoplasm cannon is good against TEQ, but as far as I know Prescience does not makes weapons twin-linked, it allows you to re-roll failed to hit rolls, therefore blast weapons can't benefit as they don't roll to hit (this is how I've come to understand Prescience).

Here is a list I've made taking out one Tzeentch DP. I personally think the Slaanesh one is a reliable anti-air unit, so that is why I chose the one Tzeentch one. I've added 18 more Daemonettes, and the Icon of Chaos for a reliable deepstrike. Hopefully they come in late game and take the objectives quickly or have one tie up with other units (as other people mentioned their rending is quite useful). The cultists and plague bearers sit on backfield objectives. Anyway this is incase they bring a lot of MEQ's and for any other marine army that does so. I personally like having the other DP, not for tactics necessarily but just for fun

HQ-

Fateweaver-

Daemon Prince-
-DoS
-Level 3
-Greater Reward (Lash of Despair)
-Greater Reward
-Flight
-WF armor

Troops-

Plaguebearers x10
Daemonettes x20- Icon of Chaos
Daemonettes x18

Heavy Support-

Daemon Prince-
-DoT
-Level 3
-Exalted Reward (Grimore)
-Greater Reward
-Flight
-WF armor


CSM Allied Detachment-

Be'lakor-

Chaos Cultists x10

Heldrake






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 anonymou5 wrote:
I actually consider GK to be a fairly easy match up for Daemons. You just have to approach the problem a little differently. You are WAAAY faster than he is, and can concentrate force much better.

Don't blindly send Princes into combat. If you do send a Prince in, stack the odds in your favor. Stack Iron Arm/Invisibility/Grimoire/Prescience/Endurance on your own Prince and go to town. Invisible/Grimoired Daemonettes are another strong option. Don't fight fair at all. Out maneuver him and use all your resources on one point of his Army. Be'lakor in particular shouldn't have an issue.

No, I'll definitely play more strategically and conservatively the first few turns, and try to avoid CC until later, once I've hopefully dwindled the GK army with shooting attacks (I forgot Fateweaver had the AP2 beam till someone mentioned it ><!), Depending on how much anti-air he has I'll keep Belakor, and Fateweaver back. The other Daemon princes will hopefully have enough Iron Arm and endurance btwn them to buff up, and this way they should be relatively safe if I play smart. The Dameonettes will either walk onto the table or deepstrike to take an objective or go into CC with Smaller enemy units. Turn 4 or 5 have the DP with Iron arm and Be'lakor go into CC.

These are kind of the tactics I'm kinda picking up on from the forums and the messages here, if any of these sounds like a bad idea, someone let me know haha.

Hmm, my gaming group has always played prescience giving re-rolls on the scatter die, I just assumed everyone else did. Is that not how it's meant to be played, I seem to half remember an FAQ somewhere? As of now there are few competitive Grey Knight builds, Draigo Wing, Henchmen spam, Purifiers in Psybacks and then there are fun lists such as mass strikes and interceptors. The most common of which I believe to be Draigo wing followed by Henchmen. The Ectoplama cannon isn't given half enough credit very often because of the mediocre Bs of the Fiend, but that extra point of strength is HUGE vs some very/increasingly common units such as Battle suits, Paladins and Tyrand Beasties (Warriors, Lictors, Ravaners, Shrikes). While you won't have the points for both a Heldrake AND a forgefiend unless you really push the list around, I would very much suggest either.

Prescience lets you re-roll scatter. Also re-rolls the gets hot dice for blast weapons with the rule.