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Hey everyone,
So I just recently started fantasy, and high elves. I always thought the high elf dragon looked awesome, so my question tho is: are the dragons good? (before i spend 60$ on one)
Also, whats the best way to run one? (archmage, prince, dragon mage?)

Thanks

Dragons want to be in combat where they can't be sniped by cannons.
Magic users want to be as far away from combat as possible. There are a few exceptions in the game but neither archmages or dragon mages are one.

If you are just starting out then it's worth pointing out that fantasy and 40k differ in the way you construct armies. Only 25% of your points can be spent on lord choices, so dragon riding characters can't even be fitted in until you hit around 2200 points.

The build you use is going to be determined by the size of games your going to be playing. What sized force are you collecting towards?

Not sure yet really what the standard sizes are, used to 40k being 1500, ect. I hear normal fantasy games are like 2400 or something, is that correct?

So I guess I would just like to work towards a standard size army. In 40k terms, to have army lists for 1500-2000. Although I havent played much of 6th edition and apparently the size of standard 40k games are increasing, so that may not be relevant sizes anymore

2400 points is a relatively typical fantasy game. At this level, you can spend up to 600 points on a prince riding a dragon, so a star dragon is an option, however you won't be able to make the most of the prince's 100 points magic item allowance.

You're going to want a good armour/ward save, because he's going to attract shooting and magic missiles. The Ogre blade gives the prince S6, so between his and the dragons attacks, plus thunder-stomp, plus the breath weapon you can use once a game your able to take on pretty much any enemy.

If you plan on committing to a dragon then Do it properly and make it a moon dragon at the least.

Play around with some builds. Some of the better magic items for the prince would be;
- charmed shield
- any of the ward save granting items
- ogre blade

ok cool, yea i totally forgot about the 25% thing. And I wana have a good amount of magic, as that's one of the high elves strengths, so maybe I won't go with the dragon until I'm playing games close to 3,000 or something, and just go with mages, archmages, and other less expensive optons for now.

Yeah Princes on Dragons can work and are quite awesome.

As Alex87 stated Charmed shield Golden crown are all relevant items to give them.

Also always run him as a Star Dragon T7 provides some protction against dwarf cannons and is downright mean against bolt throwers.

But there is another option if you like the model and just want to use it Leaver the rider unattached and leave of the saddle backing. Then paint to be the phoenix of you choice and you have a Flamespyre Dragon or a Frostheart Dragon.

Princes on Dragons are by no means "awesome" at least not in gameplay terms. They cost a huge amount of points, for a unit that is very fragile to cannons and unable to break through numerous infantry units. The fact it prevents you from taking a Lvl4 Caster is just salt in the wound.

By all means, include one, especially if you know you won't be up against cannons. They are cool models, and they can do some damage, just don't expect to win many games that aren't completely laid back ones.

 The Shadow wrote:
Princes on Dragons are by no means "awesome" at least not in gameplay terms. They cost a huge amount of points, for a unit that is very fragile to cannons and unable to break through numerous infantry units. The fact it prevents you from taking a Lvl4 Caster is just salt in the wound.

By all means, include one, especially if you know you won't be up against cannons. They are cool models, and they can do some damage, just don't expect to win many games that aren't completely laid back ones.

Thats not entirely true, you just need to have other threats on the board other than the dragon (Frostheart Phoenixes being a nice one, Dragon Prince buses etc.) so that he isnt THE target for the entire enemy army. Of course it is likely that he will be cannon bait anyway, but you need to increase the threat of your army so that at least SOME of the other shooting/magic is aimed somewhere else. This allows you to get into combat and stomp some face.

Also, be prepared to hide sometimes, and ALWAYS use fly to give him the matchups that you want, not your opponent!

2500 is the standard game size in the US. Outside it tends to be 2400 for some reason.

Anyway, you can definitely use monsters. The key to surviving the cannons is to have multiple big threats for the cannons to choose from. That way something can make it across.

The other thing is to use any cannon proof terrain to hide yourself. Buildings and large rocks are great. Obstacles can also be used but only once.

Units also make a decent screen. Remember that cannons must be able to see and aim at a point on the table surface. They can't just pick any spot within range. So a sufficiently large unit can force that point far enough the table ahead of your dragon to make hitting it unlikely. The dragon can charge over the friendly unit because of Fly so its not a problem for him.

Lots of the cries over cannons being broken stem from not playing them correctly. Cannons do have some strict targeting requirements so use them to avoid them.

 Grey Templar wrote:
2500 is the standard game size in the US. Outside it tends to be 2400 for some reason.

It's our European diabolical plan to shift from a decimal to a duodecimal system.

Or maybe you really can't figure out what to do with that extra 100 points

Revenent Reiko wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Princes on Dragons are by no means "awesome" at least not in gameplay terms. They cost a huge amount of points, for a unit that is very fragile to cannons and unable to break through numerous infantry units. The fact it prevents you from taking a Lvl4 Caster is just salt in the wound.

By all means, include one, especially if you know you won't be up against cannons. They are cool models, and they can do some damage, just don't expect to win many games that aren't completely laid back ones.

Thats not entirely true, you just need to have other threats on the board other than the dragon (Frostheart Phoenixes being a nice one, Dragon Prince buses etc.) so that he isnt THE target for the entire enemy army. Of course it is likely that he will be cannon bait anyway, but you need to increase the threat of your army so that at least SOME of the other shooting/magic is aimed somewhere else.

So say you do include two Frostheart Phoenixes. Who is your enemy going to shoot at? One of the 240 point Pheonixes? Or your ~600 point General who is far deadlier in combat and yields an extra 100 VP when killed and also deprives your army of Inspiring Presence? As Kevin Bacon would say, it's a no-brainer.

In the worst case scenario (i.e. if your opponent has a cannon or two), you're effectively handing your opponent 700VPs, and probably a whole lot more as you forfeit the ability to take a Lvl4 Wizard. In a nicer situation, your Prince on Dragon may actually survive, but is highly unlikely to make his points back, and you lose out in the Magic Phase as you haven't taken a Lvl4. You have to be playing in a very non-competitive environment for a Prince on Dragon to be a useful purchase. In even a mildly competitive environment, a Prince on Dragon is simply a bad choice if doing well is your aim.

As I said, by all means use one, they are cool models, great for the aesthetics and background of a game, and make for a change, but just don't set you expectations high at all.

You're missing one fact: If you field a dragon, you win. Even if you get tabled. It's a freaking dragon!

Bharring wrote:
You're missing one fact: If you field a dragon, you win. Even if you get tabled. It's a freaking dragon!

This man gets it.


Look Is a Dragon riding Prince the most competitive choice..... No.

But is he awesome to field and great fun ..... Heck yeah.

Just know that against cannons your gluteus is hanging in the wind.

 The Shadow wrote:
So say you do include two Frostheart Phoenixes. Who is your enemy going to shoot at? One of the 240 point Pheonixes? Or your ~600 point General who is far deadlier in combat and yields an extra 100 VP when killed and also deprives your army of Inspiring Presence? As Kevin Bacon would say, it's a no-brainer.

In the worst case scenario (i.e. if your opponent has a cannon or two), you're effectively handing your opponent 700VPs, and probably a whole lot more as you forfeit the ability to take a Lvl4 Wizard. In a nicer situation, your Prince on Dragon may actually survive, but is highly unlikely to make his points back, and you lose out in the Magic Phase as you haven't taken a Lvl4. You have to be playing in a very non-competitive environment for a Prince on Dragon to be a useful purchase. In even a mildly competitive environment, a Prince on Dragon is simply a bad choice if doing well is your aim.

As I said, by all means use one, they are cool models, great for the aesthetics and background of a game, and make for a change, but just don't set you expectations high at all.

Please dont quote EE adverts at me, it makes me feel dirty...

Yes, of course the dragon is a better target than the phoenixes, but its about target saturation, board control, and clever movement. Use your 3 flying monsters to threaten, to hide when needed to make him HAVE to shoot something he doesnt necessarily want to, to give him more options than he has shots....look, im not a particularly good player, but from reading/listening to bat reps, i would at least be able to try one out and at least learn about how it is done.

Yeah so thats worst case, best case of course being that none of that happens and your dragon gets to roflstomp the entire enemy army while the rest of the army doesnt even need to join in....why are we talking about wacky scenarios? Why not pick the middle ground and say that sometime it will work and sometime it wont...

No, you are just wrong, look at Chris Cousens who WON the Australian Masters last year with a Dragon list (WE or HE, cant remember), the only example i know of and i only know of it cos i listened to the dwellers, but its pretty good evidence. Also, in the monster saturated environment these days there is never going to be a dragon on its own, sitting out in the open, bracketed by multiple cannons if it is being used by any player who isnt a complete idiot, even a beginner would know not to put the big target in front of the big gun...

I do get your comments on not having the level 4, but you would just need to build your list so that it mitigates that, a couple of level 2s, scroll, earthing rod (is that the dispel one?) etc. just build your list around the dragon and the limitations it brings, EXACTLY the same way you would any other list.

EDIT: i realise this come across quite inflammatory, i didnt mean it to, sorry

 Revenent Reiko wrote:

Yes, of course the dragon is a better target than the phoenixes, but its about target saturation, board control, and clever movement. Use your 3 flying monsters to threaten, to hide when needed to make him HAVE to shoot something he doesnt necessarily want to, to give him more options than he has shots....look, im not a particularly good player, but from reading/listening to bat reps, i would at least be able to try one out and at least learn about how it is done.

You're missing the point. Yes, including a Dragon and two Pheonixes is indeed target saturation and is likely to result in both of your Pheonixes making combat. The point, however, is this: is it worth missing out on a Lvl4 and taking a very expensive model that is unlikely to make his points back and quite likely to die too easily (giving your opponent 700VPs in the process), purely to get those two Phoenixes into combat?

 Revenent Reiko wrote:

Yeah so thats worst case, best case of course being that none of that happens and your dragon gets to roflstomp the entire enemy army while the rest of the army doesnt even need to join in....why are we talking about wacky scenarios? Why not pick the middle ground and say that sometime it will work and sometime it wont...

It really depends what army you're facing as to what the worst and best case scenario is, and how likely they are to happen. Chances are if you're facing Empire, Dwarves, or Skaven, you're in trouble, since the opponent is almost definitely going to have cannons and other war machines and/or huge units that can bog your Dragon down. Ogres and DoC are two armies that are likely to have cannons as well, though otherwise Ogres are a good matchup for a dragon. OnG, TK and VC have plenty of large infantry units that your Prince on Dragon is just going to be unable to get points from and OnG have very few elite units at all, and, in the case of VC, you're likely the inferior Lord choice in combat on the board anyway. DE may well have Bolt Throwers, and the loss in magic becomes an even worse problem against them, the same goes for Lizardmen (and poisoned attacks a plenty from the Lizzies too).

This leaves Beastmen, Brets, WoC and Wood Elves where you've got a decent chance of having a decent matchup. Against the other armies, you'll have to be really fortunate for your Prince on Dragon to be a valuable purchase. And even here, Beastmen and WoC could potentially be fielding killer characters.

The point is, in certain conditions, Dragons can be useful, but, in the vast majority of cases, based upon common builds of all the armies, this is unlikely to happen.

 Revenent Reiko wrote:

No, you are just wrong, look at Chris Cousens who WON the Australian Masters last year with a Dragon list (WE or HE, cant remember), the only example i know of and i only know of it cos i listened to the dwellers, but its pretty good evidence. Also, in the monster saturated environment these days there is never going to be a dragon on its own, sitting out in the open, bracketed by multiple cannons if it is being used by any player who isnt a complete idiot, even a beginner would know not to put the big target in front of the big gun...

One tournament isn't great evidence, especially when we don't know the rules of the tournament and what level it's at and what other armies where used. Still, fair play to the guy. And see my point about target saturation above.

 Revenent Reiko wrote:

I do get your comments on not having the level 4, but you would just need to build your list so that it mitigates that, a couple of level 2s, scroll, earthing rod (is that the dispel one?) etc. just build your list around the dragon and the limitations it brings, EXACTLY the same way you would any other list.

But in a reasonably competitive environment, having multiple Lvl2s just doesn't cut it, since most people will be taking a Lvl4. You're casting and dispelling at a -2 disadvantage, which is pretty huge. You also have less chance of rolling the better spells (or even just the ones you want), which is where magic is really deadly and, even if you do, they're even harder to cast, since you're only getting +2. You also miss out on the Book of Hoeth, which is a brilliant item.

You can build your list so that it does mitigate the disadvantage of not having a Lvl4, but the disadvantage you put upon yourself from not taking a Lvl4 is usually so great so that mitigation is no way near enough.

 Revenent Reiko wrote:

EDIT: i realise this come across quite inflammatory, i didnt mean it to, sorry

Not at all, I didn't take it that way, don't worry about it! I'm more than happy to have a bit of friendly debate

 The Shadow wrote:

You're missing the point. Yes, including a Dragon and two Pheonixes is indeed target saturation and is likely to result in both of your Pheonixes making combat. The point, however, is this: is it worth missing out on a Lvl4 and taking a very expensive model that is unlikely to make his points back and quite likely to die too easily (giving your opponent 700VPs in the process), purely to get those two Phoenixes into combat?

No, i understand what you meant, and im not a high elf player so i wouldnt necessarily know what would be good target saturation in a HE list, so im not sure the phoenixes were a good comparison. And the idea of target saturation is that you make them not aim at the dragon right? I mean otherwise you would be doing exactly as described and would be gifting them 700VPs for nothing, while having to deal with the lack of a level 4 on your side...i get what you mean, but that still deosnt make ait a terrible choice, dragons are scary as hell...

 The Shadow wrote:

It really depends what army you're facing as to what the worst and best case scenario is, and how likely they are to happen. Chances are if you're facing Empire, Dwarves, or Skaven, you're in trouble, since the opponent is almost definitely going to have cannons and other war machines and/or huge units that can bog your Dragon down. Ogres and DoC are two armies that are likely to have cannons as well, though otherwise Ogres are a good matchup for a dragon. OnG, TK and VC have plenty of large infantry units that your Prince on Dragon is just going to be unable to get points from and OnG have very few elite units at all, and, in the case of VC, you're likely the inferior Lord choice in combat on the board anyway. DE may well have Bolt Throwers, and the loss in magic becomes an even worse problem against them, the same goes for Lizardmen (and poisoned attacks a plenty from the Lizzies too).

This leaves Beastmen, Brets, WoC and Wood Elves where you've got a decent chance of having a decent matchup. Against the other armies, you'll have to be really fortunate for your Prince on Dragon to be a valuable purchase. And even here, Beastmen and WoC could potentially be fielding killer characters.

The point is, in certain conditions, Dragons can be useful, but, in the vast majority of cases, based upon common builds of all the armies, this is unlikely to happen.

Wow, had no idea so many bloody armies had access to cannons these days....that pretty pathetic!

While i agree with the majority of the statement, i dont think VC, OnG, Lizzies (except for poison, which is badass), and DE would fit onto there in quite the way you describe. All of those armies can have problems with maneuverability, while still having small elite(ish) units, which are the perfect target for dragons. If you can use your speed to your advantage (which you would HAVE to be doing anyway) then that wouldnt be so bad. You would NEVER charge the large unit of infantry, or put yourself in a position where that would be possible for exactly the reason you describe.

 The Shadow wrote:

One tournament isn't great evidence, especially when we don't know the rules of the tournament and what level it's at and what other armies where used. Still, fair play to the guy. And see my point about target saturation above.

Fair point. Here are the lists:
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=145990
Player pack:
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=142236
And for the record the Masters is meant to be the best players from across the country (i think they use Rankings HQ to decide who gets invited?) So very much top level players, albeit not necessarily bringing their hardest armies due to comp.

And it was WE, with 2 treemen, so target saturation ftw!

 The Shadow wrote:

But in a reasonably competitive environment, having multiple Lvl2s just doesn't cut it, since most people will be taking a Lvl4. You're casting and dispelling at a -2 disadvantage, which is pretty huge. You also have less chance of rolling the better spells (or even just the ones you want), which is where magic is really deadly and, even if you do, they're even harder to cast, since you're only getting +2. You also miss out on the Book of Hoeth, which is a brilliant item.

You can build your list so that it does mitigate the disadvantage of not having a Lvl4, but the disadvantage you put upon yourself from not taking a Lvl4 is usually so great so that mitigation is no way near enough.

Yup. completely agree. Hate the fact that Level 4s have become so mandatory these days, as combat lords are becoming rarer and rarer (which is a shame as i love the where its the combat lords owing face), but i dont think anyone can deny the meta (seemingly world wide) and the effectiveness of the level 4.

As it turns out it was WE, so the book of Hoeth is a non-issue, but it is a great item.

 The Shadow wrote:

Not at all, I didn't take it that way, don't worry about it! I'm more than happy to have a bit of friendly debate

Your sir and a gentleman and a scholar, i tip my hat to you Thanks.

 Revenent Reiko wrote:

No, i understand what you meant, and im not a high elf player so i wouldnt necessarily know what would be good target saturation in a HE list, so im not sure the phoenixes were a good comparison. And the idea of target saturation is that you make them not aim at the dragon right?

There isn't really, the target is too tempting. You may get away with a Noble/Eagle on Griffon or something, but even that's pushing it, considering the drop in hitting power.

 Revenent Reiko wrote:

While i agree with the majority of the statement, i dont think VC, OnG, Lizzies (except for poison, which is badass), and DE would fit onto there in quite the way you describe. All of those armies can have problems with maneuverability, while still having small elite(ish) units, which are the perfect target for dragons. If you can use your speed to your advantage (which you would HAVE to be doing anyway) then that wouldnt be so bad. You would NEVER charge the large unit of infantry, or put yourself in a position where that would be possible for exactly the reason you describe.

OnG do have very few, small, elite units, but I take the point about manoeurvability etc. Dragons would probably do alright against DE and Lizzies (except for poison, as you say), but they'd find it hard to get their points back against OnG or VC.

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
Fair point. Here are the lists:
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=145990
Player pack:
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=142236
And for the record the Masters is meant to be the best players from across the country (i think they use Rankings HQ to decide who gets invited?) So very much top level players, albeit not necessarily bringing their hardest armies due to comp.

Hmmm, very interesting. This was a good read, thanks for sharing

Before you shell out for a GW dragon kit, you owe it to yourself to take a google at McFarlane Dragons. not only do they cost less but they are already painted.Just sayin'.

 snurl wrote:
...but they are already painted.

Funnily enough for this reason I'd never consider buying one… Can see how others may see it as a positive though.

I don't have any prepaints either, but i was checking them out at the comic store and some of those paintjobs are not bad at all, especially for a unit that may not be used very often.