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Made in ca
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Hey! I'm trying to gather all the defensive profiles for all of the game's Flying Monstrous Creatures for Math-hammer purposes. Here's the ones I could think of/know:

Flyrant: T6, 3+, 5+ cover if Diving
Harpy/Crone: T5, 4+, 5+ cover if Diving
Khorne/Slaanesh DP: T5, 3+ (assuming Power Armour), 5++
Nurgle DP: T5, 3+ (assuming Power Armour), 5++, 3+ cover if Diving thanks to Shrouded, 2+ cover if within 8" due to defensive grenades.
Tzeentch DP: T5, 3+ (assuming Power Armour), 5++, reroll 1s for armour/invul saves. Can get 2+ cover if it rolls Invisibility and goes Diving.
Bloodthirster: T6, 3+, 5++
Lord of Change: T6, 5++, reroll 1s for AS.
Kairos Fateweaver T5, 4++ , reroll 1s for save
Be'la'kor: T5, 4++, 3+ cover save if Diving thanks to Shrouded.
Harridan: T8, 3+, 5+ FNP
An'ggrath: T8, 2+, 3++, GMC
Aetaos'rau'keres: T8, 3++, GMC

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/05 13:58:08


 
   
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Alabama

I would think the 40K Tactics forum would be better suited for your question.

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Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Might be better off in 40K General, rather than discussion, but be aware that discussion of specific rules is a bit of a touchy area (generally ok without points values and upgrades costs though) so you might not get all the info you need here.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in ca
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Ah roger gents, I've alerted the mods. Hopefully this post will get moved where it belongs.
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

NP

You've forgotten LoC from that list too.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





Brisbane

You forgot the Lord of Change T6 5++ and Kairos Fateweaver T5 4++
Be'lakor doesn't have Shrouded and Stealth unless he cast it on himself if that matters. He is T5 but has Eternal Warrior.

 
   
Made in ca
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Ah, yes.

Lord of Change: T6(IIRC), 5++, reroll 1s for AS.

What about the Skarbrand and Kairos? Same defensive stats as LoC and BT?
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Skarbrand is just a MC, no wings.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






Nurgle Princes also have Defensive Grenades, so pack on Stealth versus close range shooting.

Ramblings: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/tag/anonymou5/

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Made in ca
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




 anonymou5 wrote:
Nurgle Princes also have Defensive Grenades, so pack on Stealth versus close range shooting.


Ah right, God I hate that rule.

In the case of rolling for psychic powers, am I right to assume that a player with a FMC will almost always be rolling on the Biomancy table (in order to try to get Iron Arm)?

   
Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






Deschenus Maximus wrote:
 anonymou5 wrote:
Nurgle Princes also have Defensive Grenades, so pack on Stealth versus close range shooting.


Ah right, God I hate that rule.

In the case of rolling for psychic powers, am I right to assume that a player with a FMC will almost always be rolling on the Biomancy table (in order to try to get Iron Arm)?



No. Most of the better Daemons players are going to mix it up versus different opponents. Tzeentch Princes will often go for Invisibility to become invincible against lots of shooting. Nurgle Princes will often roll on their table if they see a lot of infantry on the board, as they can become more deadly Heldrakes if needed.

Ramblings: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/tag/anonymou5/

Batreps (WIP): http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl20wU5SV0cVUtDaSqzMkiQ

Armies: Lokisons (The Rout), Sluts and Puppies: A Chaos Daemon Experience (Daemons), PDF of the Union of Surviving Slavic Regimes (Imperial Guard), The Dead Live! (Chaos Marines), Loke's Blokes (Orks), The Kabal of the Hidden Blade (DE) 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Grand Rapids Metro

Don't forget the Harridan if you're doing Lords of War.

And you could make an argument for the Heldrake?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/04 21:14:31


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Made in ca
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




@Anon: I'm really unfamiliar with C:CD, so sorry for the dumb questions, but how likely is it that a Tzeentch DP will get Invisibility? And wouldn't a Nurgle DP be really vulnerable to Flyers without some sort of extra defensive buff?

@duct: I didn't ask about Flyers per se since I know all their stats from memory, but thanks for the suggestion

Harridan is T7/3+, right?
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Grand Rapids Metro

Here are the old rules at least, not sure if it's changed...aren't there some other forgeworld flying daemons too?



T-7 W-5 LD-10 SV-3+

it can have 8-20 gargoyles

it had 3 mass points

it is a gargantuan creature. it counts as a monterous creature and coulnts as 20 models for the purposes of enemy morale after an assault.

it is fearless



I'd count fearless and LD in for defenses as they are stats and effects that can also be attacked.

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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






Deschenus Maximus wrote:
@Anon: I'm really unfamiliar with C:CD, so sorry for the dumb questions, but how likely is it that a Tzeentch DP will get Invisibility? And wouldn't a Nurgle DP be really vulnerable to Flyers without some sort of extra defensive buff?

@duct: I didn't ask about Flyers per se since I know all their stats from memory, but thanks for the suggestion

Harridan is T7/3+, right?


Not dumb questions at all. A Tzeentch Prince has 3 rolls, so fairly likely to get Invis. You generally commit more than 3 rolls to it (multiple Princes) and if you get it earlier, then you start fishing for Iron Arm. It all depends on what you're facing. You often end up with a chain of Princes, one further back semi-hiding push Invis forward 24 inches, then the Invis Prince pushing the Grimoire 24 more inches forward. Or one Prince casting Invis and getting the Grimoire put back on him.

As to the Nurgle Prince it depends. Princes can usually out maneuver fliers since they can start on the board, and sometimes you don't have to worry about them shooting at you at all. So it's going to depend on whether the need for poisoned AP2/AP3 shooting outweighs the need for Iron Arm. Or he gets Iron Arm on his first roll and goes into Nurgle. Or he gets the 4+ Feel No Pain Greater Gift and you don't have any STR 10 and he decides he doesn't need Iron Arm. etc, etc.

One of the Strengths to a Deamons Army is the ability to tailor your powers to your opponent. Be'lakor makes this even better, since you always have Invisibility (and the rest of the Telepathy Tree, where EVERY power is good for Daemons sometimes) and Eternal Warrior guranteed on one Prince.

Ramblings: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/tag/anonymou5/

Batreps (WIP): http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl20wU5SV0cVUtDaSqzMkiQ

Armies: Lokisons (The Rout), Sluts and Puppies: A Chaos Daemon Experience (Daemons), PDF of the Union of Surviving Slavic Regimes (Imperial Guard), The Dead Live! (Chaos Marines), Loke's Blokes (Orks), The Kabal of the Hidden Blade (DE) 
   
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Been Around the Block




 ductvader wrote:
Here are the old rules at least, not sure if it's changed...aren't there some other forgeworld flying daemons too?



T-7 W-5 LD-10 SV-3+

it can have 8-20 gargoyles

it had 3 mass points

it is a gargantuan creature. it counts as a monterous creature and coulnts as 20 models for the purposes of enemy morale after an assault.

it is fearless


I'd count fearless and LD in for defenses as they are stats and effects that can also be attacked.



That is way outdated, mass points haven't been around since the first release of Apocalypse which was at the end of 4th/ start of 5th iirc

the new stats are:

T-8 W-8 LD-10 Sv-3+ (and FnP) with fearless

A Harridan can still carry a single brood of up to 20 gargoyles and acts as an open topped transport for them, Gargantuan Creature out of the 6th ed Apocalypse book have a lot of special rules so it would be best to read them out of there
   
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Forgot hive crones and harpies



" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Forgot hive crones and harpies


Apart from where they're the second item on the list in the OP?

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

 anonymou5 wrote:
Deschenus Maximus wrote:
 anonymou5 wrote:
Nurgle Princes also have Defensive Grenades, so pack on Stealth versus close range shooting.


Ah right, God I hate that rule.

In the case of rolling for psychic powers, am I right to assume that a player with a FMC will almost always be rolling on the Biomancy table (in order to try to get Iron Arm)?



No. Most of the better Daemons players are going to mix it up versus different opponents. Tzeentch Princes will often go for Invisibility to become invincible against lots of shooting. Nurgle Princes will often roll on their table if they see a lot of infantry on the board, as they can become more deadly Heldrakes if needed.


Plus Tyranids don't have access to rulebook powers any more, but it is possible that they get lucky and roll Catalyst for Feel No Pain.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Grand Rapids Metro

You can also get regeneration on a tyrant...I don't think the other FTMCs...but I could easily be wrong.

Regardless...no one would take it on them...

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Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

I could see Regen being useful on a flying Tyrant in a low-points game where it's much harder for your opponent to focus it down.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Golden Throne

Buy the Codex...
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

 Byte wrote:
Buy the Codex...


You want him to buy 3 different codices, a dataslate and a supplement just to find out the defence of a few units? You must be from Games Workshop.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Golden Throne

 PrinceRaven wrote:
 Byte wrote:
Buy the Codex...


You want him to buy 3 different codices, a dataslate and a supplement just to find out the defence of a few units? You must be from Games Workshop.


Yes and no. Move along.

   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

Is there any specific reason you are leaving off the wounds for this? How hard these things are to kill is often more a factor of ID and wounds.

If you are doing the lords of war too then there are the daemon lords for forgeworld.
An'ggrath: T8, 2+, 3++, GMC
Aetaos'rau'keres: T8, 3++, GMC

I would like to add that the nurgle DP are not really that vulnerable to most fliers as it is very easy for it to have a 2-3+ cover save from terrain or diving. The real danger is getting grounded and slammed with Tau or Eldar ignore cover shooting.

Be'Lakor does actually come with shrouded. He is very survivable under the right conditions.
   
Made in ca
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Thanks guys for all the help.

@ansacs: Reason why I didn't put the wounds on there is because what I'm specifically trying to math-hammer out is which weapons to put on my flyers to have the optimal effects against the greatest amount of targets in a TAC list.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Grand Rapids Metro

Really depends on the flier too.

Come play games in West Michigan at https://www.facebook.com/tcpgrwarroom 
   
Made in ca
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




 ductvader wrote:
Really depends on the flier too.


Looking at the Storm Talon, specifically. Common wisdom is to go for the Skyhammer missiles, but since many FMCs have a 3+ AS, I'm not sure if its really the right choice when we take those into consideration.
   
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





Some Tomb World in some galaxy by that one thing in that one place (or Minnesota for nosy people)

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
 ductvader wrote:
Really depends on the flier too.


Looking at the Storm Talon, specifically. Common wisdom is to go for the Skyhammer missiles, but since many FMCs have a 3+ AS, I'm not sure if its really the right choice when we take those into consideration.


Personally I like the TML for TAC lists otherwise I just grab skyhammer since they are a decent choice as well

"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War

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