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Hello, I decided to try Warhammer 40,000 and so far I have only played a little bit on the program called Vassal. (I just got my first models in the mail today though, yay!)

I had a few questions I wanted to ask, I'm hoping people will be patient enough to answer them for me. Sorry if these questions seem obvious or stupid.

#1 I started a match versus a player who had the Necron army. It was the mission with the Relic objective. He had a transport with 10 guys inside and he parked it right on the very edge of his deployment area. He had the first turn, so he zooms the transport forward and parks it on the Relic. He says the transport now claims it, because it's part of his scoring unit with guys inside. I fired some missiles at the transport to no effect, and on his next turn he drives away with the Relic and pretty much eliminates any possibility for me to win. Is this a correct usage of the rules? I looked at the rule for the Relic and it says a model can claim the objective by touching it and then embark on a transport. He never used troops for that purpose. He said the transport itself claimed the objective.

#2 Same game, I was shooting through trees at some sort of close assault units that have 2 wounds each and an armor save of 3+. He said he could take a cover save for the trees (4+) and then his armor save. I've watched some videos online since.. it doesn't seem to me like you get two saves on the same wound?

Someone asked me to play a really big game of 1,850 points. I explained that I was new and wouldn't be very good or fast with a big army. He said it was fine, it's an experimental game. So I made my army.. a Captain with jetpack, Reclusiarch with jetpack, 10 assault marines, some devestators, some tactical squads, a Baal Predator, and Furioso Dreadnought in a drop pod. His army was, I think, the Eldar. He had 2 Fire Prism tanks, 2 jets (One was a bomber of some kind), a bunch of flying bikes, a group of 15 or more 'Helions', a character named The Baron, and a character named Farseer who could use magic.

#3 He cast some of his spells with Farseer, I can't tell you which ones. But, essentially when it was my turn to shoot, I fired a missile launcher into the big clump of Helions with the two characters in it. (They were the only targets in range.. he spent about 20 minutes during his movement phase very carefully measuring so my plasma cannon devestators would be 37" away from his guys, and my lascannon devestators were 49" away, and etc, etc..) It landed right on target and the explosion hit about 7 guys and wounded 5 of them. He declares his Baron character is taking the hits. He then makes his armor saves with a 2+ .. and when he failed them he rerolled the save. Is that even possible?! That's a 1 in 36 chance to even take a single wound, right?

#4 Can a Fire Prism tank fire a large explosive shot 60"? Does it also ignore moving through difficult terrain, and ignore some critical hits on the penetration table?

#5 If I only have one drop pod, does it arrive automatically on turn 1? Or, because I don't have two of them.. (It says HALF your drop pods arrive in the first turn) I have to do normal reserve rolls?

#6 If my dreadnought wins in an assault and wins the initiative test to overrun and destroy the enemy, can it then move 1d6 for the victory consolidation?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and one more. If my marines run away, they will automatically regroup because of the Know No Fear rule, yes? They then can move 3" and shoot normally?

#1 he cheated. Only a Scoring unit can grab the Relic, and vehicles are not scoring.
#2 again, incorrect. You can only save once per wound.
#3 Plasma Cannons have a 36" range, not 24.
And yes, a Fortuned Baron is a beast.
#4 Eldar codex isn't nearby - I'll defer.
#5 Arrives automatically turn 1.
#6 Yes
#7 Yes

1) - Your opponent did not know the rules or was cheating. His models needed to disembark to claim the relic. I believe they have to spend the turn claiming it, they can't just bump into it.

2) Same deal. You only get one save for armor, cover and invulnerability. You don't get two.

3) The Baron is Dark Eldar. I have no clue about that one. Sounds about right tho.

4) Yes, Fire Prisms can do that.

5) Yes, it does.

6) I thought dreadnoughts moved 1d3 inches for consolidation.

Oh, sorry about the plasma cannon thing. You're correct, it was one inch out of range so must have been 37". I remember looking in the rulebook and being annoyed. :(

Thank you for all of these answers. For #1 .. yeah it seemed strange that you could have the objective in hand already at the first turn. His transport could move 12" .. so there's no way I could ever catch it.

 SkyDragon wrote:
For #1 .. yeah it seemed strange that you could have the objective in hand already at the first turn. His transport could move 12" .. so there's no way I could ever catch it.

You can have the objective in hand already at the first turn.

Just deploy the transport sideways (Like a Land Raider) Pivot it then move 6 inches. Then the guys inside can deploy up to 6 inches touching the relic and capturing it.

Then next turn the same unit can embark on the Land Raider provided it did not get destroyed.

Bleh. Well, at least that'd give me one turn to shoot at his troops. I had nothing to shoot at but the transport itself during our game.

Anyone feel a growing rage at people who tend to tweak things there way because they can get away with it with new players.

/shrug, maybe he wasn't, who really knows

#1 is an issue that comes up every now and then. It used to be that troops inside a transport could still claim objectives, but that is no longer the case.

On #2, there's no excuse. That's just blatant cheating.

From #3 onward, there's no funny business going on. You're correct about the rules you asked about, and your opponents all played you correctly. Unfortunately, the Baronstar (that's what they call the tactic used in #3) is indeed a nasty, nasty tactic. It's good enough that I'd be leery about using it on a new player.

Ugh, is it something I should expect to see a lot more of? Knowing now that it's legal, I feel weird that someone would think it's fair to use that unit in a friendly game.

Hehe.. I was hesitant to bring 4 heavy bolters on my devestators because 12 strength 5 shots seemed really strong.

 Elgrun wrote:
Anyone feel a growing rage at people who tend to tweak things there way because they can get away with it with new players.

/shrug, maybe he wasn't, who really knows

nah, you're right to be upset. Not a fan of the way these players seem to have been leading this guy around.

 SkyDragon wrote:
Ugh, is it something I should expect to see a lot more of? Knowing now that it's legal, I feel weird that someone would think it's fair to use that unit in a friendly game.

Hehe.. I was hesitant to bring 4 heavy bolters on my devestators because 12 strength 5 shots seemed really strong.

The Baron can only tank shots if he's closest to the shooting unit.
Flank him.

rigeld2 wrote:

 SkyDragon wrote:
Ugh, is it something I should expect to see a lot more of? Knowing now that it's legal, I feel weird that someone would think it's fair to use that unit in a friendly game.

Hehe.. I was hesitant to bring 4 heavy bolters on my devestators because 12 strength 5 shots seemed really strong.

The Baron can only tank shots if he's closest to the shooting unit.
Flank him.

It wasn't really an option. :( It was a marine with a missile launcher, so he couldn't move and shoot.

1: As has been said, it explicitly states the unit cannot be embarked on a transport to claim the relic. He can then embark on his barge the next turn and fly away, but that's at least a turn he'd be in range for you to try and plunk away at or destroy the transport.

2: It explicitly states in the Cover Saves section of the current BRB that you only get to take one saving throw against any wound or glancing/penetrating hit, and you have to use the best one available.

In really old editions, you got to attempt as many saving throws as you had on your guy, but it hasn't been that way in 20+ years so anyone claiming ignorance on how it is now is just trying to job you.

3: Unfortunately yes that's a thing that's possible. A guy doing that to you when you're clearly a new player is a rude thing to do. The way shooting works, wounds are taken on the nearest model to the guys who fired the shot so if Baron was the closest guy to you, all wounds would be rolled against him first and then go outward in the squad should he ever die.

Thing is, Farseers can possibly get a psychic power called "Fortune" that allows the unit targetted by it to reroll all failed saving throws. Normally while it's really good, it's not broken as it's intention was to drop that on the Farseer himself to reroll his 4+ invulnerable save. The best armor save on any squad in the Eldar codex is only 3+ armor, which is easily enough punctured by good AP weaponry.

Thing is, you can also do things like gain a 2+ cover save which would then get rerolled, or if he's using a Warlock Council and managed to roll enough of the power that adds +1 to all saving throws on the unit powers with the Warlocks, have a 2+ invulnerable save.

It's anti-fun, and if it's "just experimental" on his part, he's lying because he knows full well it's a broken combination nobody enjoys fighting against. Sounds like your first couple of games were against WAAC players, which is a horrible thing to experience when you're trying to learn the rules. They should be ashamed of themselves for actively trying to kill the hobby.

4: Yes, Yes, and No. The Fire Prism's cannon has 3 different fire modes. All 3 are 60 inches. One is S9 AP1 Lance, for taking out vehicles. One is S7 AP2 Blast, which is good against clumps of high armored targets like terminators. One is S5 AP3 Large Blast, which is fantastic against MEQ units or any high concentration of horde units. It's a really good tank as it's anti-everything.

It doesn't get to downgrade penetrating hits to glances, though. Wave Serpents can, but not Fire Prisms. That's the Wave Shield Generator on the Wave Serpent, something that Fire Prisms do not have access to. It is a skimmer tank, and skimmers ignore difficult terrain while moving (they still have to take dangerous terrain checks if they park on terrain.) As it is a skimmer tank, it also gains a Jink Save for any game turn when it moves in the movement phase. Look up the rules for Jink in the BRB. Also, eldar vehicles can take a thing called Holofields which give it a +1 cover save and therefore stacks with Jink, meaning the tank will have a 50/50 chance of ignoring any glancing/penetrating hits on it that don't ignore cover.

5: Yes it comes in. I believe the wording explicitly states "half your drop pods rounded up." Half of 1 is .5, which rounded up is 1.

6: It gets to consolidate, yes. Go read the consolidation rules in the BRB.

Thanks SRSFACE. Hope I didn't annoy you with my questions.

The Fire Prism tanks were very hard to damage. I scored 2 penetrations and a glancing hit on one of them. It used a 4+ cover save to dodge a glance and a penetration, and the penetration was a crew shaken result. He rolled a die, said his tank crew ignores the effect. :(

I think I was very much outclassed in this game. We didn't play to the point where his bombers came on the field, but from what I've read I would have needed to roll 6s on my heavy weapons just to hit them anyway.

This is a little bit demoralizing.

SkyDragon,
There are many 'below the belt' tactics which are entirely legal and it is always up to your opponents if they want to field one. One of my first experience was a drop-pod army with multiple 'Jaws of the World Wolf' rune-priests that crippled my army on turn 1 before I had a chance to even move a single model, so I know how you feel. If it wasn't for the interest of a single person in my life, I might of not even bothered learning the hobby. At least now I realize that such a broken list are not the 'normal,' that most players look down on 'win at all cost' players whom pull out those lists in friendly games.

Personally, I always get my opponents permission before I field what I consider to be less then friendly list.

While I don't have anything to add to what has already been said regarding rules, I will say that in my experience, Vassal is unfortunately full of the worst kinds of WAAC players imaginable. During one of my very first games on Vassal a few months ago, somebody messaged me and I told them that I'm fairly new and just looking for a fun casual game to learn Vassal a little better. The guys agrees, we roll for terrain. He proceeds to pick the LARGEST possible terrain pieces in the program and place them all in front of my deployment zone, so that my rhinos literally cannot leave the deployment zone. When I say something about this, he says "well Vassal doesn't really have smaller terrain pieces" which is a blatant lie because I found much smaller terrain pieces later. THEN, he busts out a wave serpent spam list even though I told him that I'm not looking for a competitive game and that I'm not very good yet, to which he replied, "No offense but it's not like you were going to win anyway". What a jerkoff.

You're better off playing a few games in real life to get a handle on the rules before you try to go up against chumps online who pull this kind of thing.

Don't ever be afraid to ask questions, SkyDragon! Especially if you're new. I don't think there's such a thing as an annoying question, but there are definitely a lot of annoying answers. There are a lot of gaping holes in the rulebook and codices which cause a lot of contention because some people believe the only way to play is "rules as written" which, IMO, isn't very fun a lot of the times as most people who believe that over "rules as intended" would rather exploit poorly worded rules than actually play a game enjoyable for both sides.

It's kind of the eternal debate that'll never, ever go away.

I highly recommend just hanging out at your local FLGS on Warhammer night just to watch a couple guys play, meet the local color. You can usually identify which guys actively want new players to join and would rather play a game that's fluffy and fun than because their units are unbeatable. Talk to one, get a phone number, and have him sit down with you to create a list to play against him, even a week in advance.

1. Were you playing Relic & Big Guns Never Tire (BAO format)? If that was then yes he can do that, however how you phrased it, in that

He says the transport now claims it, because it's part of his scoring unit with guys inside

I'd while I understand why he'd/she say that the relic was under their control as the the scoring unit inside the transport was within 3" of the objective... that is not how the rule is made out in rule book.. In the rule book it states you have to go outside and claim the objective. My guess is that since you were playing on vassel where I know a number of new players play in order to try out a game for the first time (I did it with netrunner) I'd say the person you played against didn't have a thorough grasp of the rules, or they may have just been playing it wrong for sometime and made it into a habit. Hopefully they weren't tyring to outright cheat you.

2.No he can't do that. And at this point I would definitely be lead to the assumption that the player you were playing against did not know the rules and was hence a new player themselves. It'd be amazing for someone not to know this rule/ try and use it to their advantage as to how universally known it is that you either take an armor save or a cover save. The person could've got this however mixed up with that of if you had the choice between a cover save and armor save you could take the cover save and if you then had a FNP save you could also take a FNP save.

3.Welcome to the Shenanigans that is 40k atm and is a very controversial topic right now, in that TO's are questioning taking rules into their own hands to try and balance rules as it is clear GW is making no real effort to do so. For the L.V.O. they are making it that anything will 2+ ,2++ re-rollable can only then be re-rolled and successfully passed on a 4+ the next time. Which I believe very much helps out the situation.

4. Fire Prisms are skimmers, so they ignore difficult terrain. and the prism cannon doesn't necessarily ignore some of the penetration table rather some of the penetration itself. Lance makes it so the best armor one can effectively have against it is AV 12 so if you had AV 14 like L.R. now it is only AV12 against that lance shot.

5.Yep

6. Yep again

7. Yep they consolidate 3" and then can move 6" for normal movement as well. ATFKNF is an amazing USR

To clarify on the second half of number 4: skimmers move over terrain, if they start or end in difficult terrain, it is dangerous. Eldar vehicles can take a piece of wargear that grants "move through cover"to help mitigate the dangerous terrain, and a piece of wargear that allows them to ignore crew shaken/stunned results.

This is why I like to play new guys. I let them set the point limit and then make a joke list or semi-competitive list. New guys don't need to deal with triptides, serpent spam, or baronstars.

Well I just played another Vassal game, this time at 1,500 versus Tau. Other than forgetting to do Gets Hot on my plasma weapon, and forgetting to move my Assault Marines before shooting.. (He let me go back and move them) I feel like we played correctly. I actually won the game! I killed one of his tanks with a lucky lascannon volley and then my Furioso Dreadnought landed in his drop pod and hit another tank with its melta gun. Two dead tanks in the first turn! My opponent conceded to me at the end of Turn 4 and said next time he's bringing 2 Riptides.. lol.

Vassal is home to a lot of jerk players. It is easy to run broken lists since you don't have to buy/paint anything.

Don't judge the hobby on them please. Of course, there are some of those same types of players in real life, just not as common.

Oh, also the Relic can't be moved more than 6" per phase, even if it is in a transport.

SRSFACE wrote:1: As has been said, it explicitly states the unit cannot be embarked on a transport to claim the relic. He can then embark on his barge the next turn and fly away, but that's at least a turn he'd be in range for you to try and plunk away at or destroy the transport.

Furthermore, as I don't think its been mentioned yet, the relic can never move more than 6", even if in a transport. So he can 'fly away' but only at a pace of normal walking infantry. So if he took his skimmers and booked it out of there, technically the relic would've been dropped pretty much where it started.

JubbJubbz wrote:

SRSFACE wrote:1: As has been said, it explicitly states the unit cannot be embarked on a transport to claim the relic. He can then embark on his barge the next turn and fly away, but that's at least a turn he'd be in range for you to try and plunk away at or destroy the transport.

Furthermore, as I don't think its been mentioned yet, the relic can never move more than 6", even if in a transport. So he can 'fly away' but only at a pace of normal walking infantry. So if he took his skimmers and booked it out of there, technically the relic would've been dropped pretty much where it started.

Unless its Tau Crisis Suits. But that may have been FAQ'd

JubbJubbz wrote:

SRSFACE wrote:1: As has been said, it explicitly states the unit cannot be embarked on a transport to claim the relic. He can then embark on his barge the next turn and fly away, but that's at least a turn he'd be in range for you to try and plunk away at or destroy the transport.

Furthermore, as I don't think its been mentioned yet, the relic can never move more than 6", even if in a transport. So he can 'fly away' but only at a pace of normal walking infantry. So if he took his skimmers and booked it out of there, technically the relic would've been dropped pretty much where it started.

It cannot move more than 6" in a phase, which is why Windriders are awesome in the relic, move up, grab relic, turbo-boost 6", Eldar jetbike thrust for 2-6".

Cannot use Jetbikes "thrust" assault move after turbo-boosting (cannot execute any voluntary actions after boosting).

 Lemartes12 wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:

Furthermore, as I don't think its been mentioned yet, the relic can never move more than 6", even if in a transport. So he can 'fly away' but only at a pace of normal walking infantry. So if he took his skimmers and booked it out of there, technically the relic would've been dropped pretty much where it started.

Unless its Tau Crisis Suits. But that may have been FAQ'd

I hadn't heard this one. What allows/allowed the Crisis suits to carry a relic further than 6" in any phase?

Nothing to my knowledge,
I think they where overlooking the fact the 6 inch limitation is per phase and counting both normal movement and thrust move together.

I have to say.. most of this discussion is way over my head. I don't even seem to have the full set of rules for my own army.. I guess it's an older book and stuff has been updated.

Someone had to explain to me what the stats for the Crozium Arcanum were. :p

Welcome to 40k. I have played maybe a dozen games. I have certainly been led up the garden path once or twice by more experienced players.

The cover save, armor save, invul, then Feel no Pain is the worst. FnP is very demoralising to play against.

Also players insisting on playing Kill Point games if they see you have a lot of small units.. I mean how is a army with 11 units gonna win a kill point game vs an army of 4 units?

 scommy wrote:
Welcome to 40k. I have played maybe a dozen games. I have certainly been led up the garden path once or twice by more experienced players.

The cover save, armor save, invul, then Feel no Pain is the worst. FnP is very demoralising to play against.

Also players insisting on playing Kill Point games if they see you have a lot of small units.. I mean how is a army with 11 units gonna win a kill point game vs an army of 4 units?

Yes! Feel No Pain is so brutal! Today I had another Vassal game versus Tau and there was a Riptide with that rule.. so if I shoot him with bolters, I need a 6 to wound him. Then his armor save is 2+ .. then he can do feel no pain for 5+. It was very demoralizing. He didn't lose a single wound. Ah well. I guess I need more plasma cannons!