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So lawyer me this:

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two singlehanded weapons (often a Melee weapon and or pistol in each hand) get +1 Attack. Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit; you only get one extra Attack, even if you have four arm and a sword in each.

Key phrase here, OFTEN a melee and or pistol. The word often leave the possibilities wide open because the +1 attacks are no longer exclusive to melee weapons and pistols. Other ramifications of this that a Space Marine Terminator with a power sword and assault cannon, neither weapon has the two handed rule and no weapon has a one handed rule, would have 3 attacks.

Tactical Squad Space Marine Wargear:
Power armour, Boltgun, Bolt pistol, Frag grenades, Krak grenades

That is his standard wargear. How does that grant two attacks during the assault? Key things there no assigned melee and has a bolt pistol.

No Specified Melee Weapon: If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.

So he has a melee weapon by default even those it is not listed in his wargear. Close combat weapons are not two handed.

Pistols as Close Combat Weapons: A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP and special ruIes of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored (see page 52).

Bolt pistol, that is a second close combat weapon that is one handed. Seems to me that is +1 attacks.

Pistols are melee weapons, ergo, they have a specified melee weapon.

majortwitch wrote:

No Specified Melee Weapon: If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.

So he has a melee weapon by default even those it is not listed in his wargear. Close combat weapons are not two handed.

Pistols as Close Combat Weapons: A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP and special ruIes of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored (see page 52).

Bolt pistol, that is a second close combat weapon that is one handed. Seems to me that is +1 attacks.

Bolt Pistol is a Melee weapon (read the Pistol type). Since he has a Melee weapon, the "No Specified Melee Weapon" rule does not come into play.

So no, he doesn't get an extra attack.

nice try

So, he gets a single CCW for having no melee weapons, then gets a bonus attack for having two melee weapons?

No. If you are using a pistol as a CCW, you can't claim another CCW on the basis that you don't have any melee weapons, because a CCW is a melee weapon and you are using your pistol as a CCW.

This is so blatantly ridiculous. For once the rules are clear in their intention and written in a logical fashion and yet you are still looking for a loophole.

There's clearly a specified close combat weapon, otherwise you could never claim to have a seconf one.

The way that is worded are pistols are only counted as close combat weapons during the assault. So that would mean they would have two weapons outside of the assault yet only one during. So a moot point as that leaves them with a single weapon in the assault.

But back to first point! What stops you from using the bolt gun as your second weapon? The +1 Two Weapons is wide open. And bolt gun is not two handed, so what am i missing there.

majortwitch wrote:
The way that is worded are pistols are only counted as close combat weapons during the assault. So that would mean they would have two weapons outside of the assault yet only one during. So a moot point as that leaves them with a single weapon in the assault.

But back to first point! What stops you from using the bolt gun as your second weapon? The +1 Two Weapons is wide open. And bolt gun is not two handed, so what am i missing there.

It's not a Melee weapon so cannot be used in assault.

But is it being used? If you have a power sword and pistol you can swing the sword twice and not use the pistol. Just swing the pistol twice and not use the boltgun? Or does the boltgun disappear in the assault? And where is that it states it cannot be used in the assault?

majortwitch wrote:
But is it being used? If you have a power sword and pistol you can swing the sword twice and not use the pistol. Just swing the pistol twice and not use the boltgun? Or does the boltgun disappear in the assault? And where is that it states it cannot be used in the assault?

p51 wrote:However, it's worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 Attack in close combat (see page 24).

p24 wrote: +1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (often a Melee weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get +1 Attack.

You have no permission to count Bolters as a weapon in CC.

From page 50 of the 6th edition rulebook under the heading 'Type':

A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, heavy, ordnance, pistol, rapid fire or salvo... A Shooting weapon can only be used to make Shooting attacks.

majortwitch wrote:
The way that is worded are pistols are only counted as close combat weapons during the assault.

So during the assault you have a specified melee weapon. So during the assault you can't claim to have an Unspecified melee weapon (because at that time you have one), which is the one time it would be useful.

I love this. Your last point: "Pistols as [CCW]..." argument done.

With his logic, everybody has two attacks.

rigeld2 wrote:

p51 wrote:However, it's worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 Attack in close combat (see page 24).

That is a reminder that if you happen to have two melee weapons that get extra attack. It goes back to reference page 24 where the vagueness lies. It isn't saying its worth remembering that if a model ONLY has two or more Melee weapons... it is a reminder not a further expansion of rule.

 Ghaz wrote:
From page 50 of the 6th edition rulebook under the heading 'Type':

A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, heavy, ordnance, pistol, rapid fire or salvo... A Shooting weapon can only be used to make Shooting attacks.

This was covered, the boltgun isn't being used to make the extra attack only qualify. And would this mean the pistol could not be used as CCW? Other rules supersede this line such as the +1 Two Weapons rule.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
With his logic, everybody has two attacks.

Very true, this was mostly done to point out very poor wording of rules.

As I have come to realize you don't even need a pistol. Even Guardsman with a his lasgun qualifies for two attacks.

majortwitch wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

p51 wrote:However, it's worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 Attack in close combat (see page 24).

That is a reminder that if you happen to have two melee weapons that get extra attack. It goes back to reference page 24 where the vagueness lies. It isn't saying its worth remembering that if a model ONLY has two or more Melee weapons... it is a reminder not a further expansion of rule.

Your interpretation requires literally ignoring the rule on page 51. Why are you ignoring a rule?

majortwitch wrote:
Very true, this was mostly done to point out very poor wording of rules.

I'll disagree with that. If you have no close combat weapon you count as having one. It's simple and elegant. If you then try to justify using this rule when you already have a CCW, then you run into problems

As I have come to realize you don't even need a pistol. Even Guardsman with a his lasgun qualifies for two attacks.

How so? At most he can claim a single Unspecified combat weapon. Where would he get a second from?

He's claiming Lasguns, Bolters, etc. are a second weapon and therefore give an additional attack.
edit: when combined with either a pistol or non-specified melee weapon

rigeld2 wrote:
He's claiming Lasguns, Bolters, etc. are a second weapon and therefore give an additional attack.
edit: when combined with either a pistol or non-specified melee weapon

That's just strange.
The rule doesn't turn a lasgun in a melee weapon. It just gives a CCW weapon. And they're not pistols.
I'm just really not seeing the logic here.
And somehow doing this without even a pistol? Just no.

I am not ignoring the rule. I am sure how else to explain it. Try two: "if a model has" we have a "if" there. If tells of one possibility. It is not stating that models with only with two melee weapons get an extra attack. It is not an if and only if statement. If does not exclude non melee weapons which are allowed by page 24.

majortwitch wrote:
I am not ignoring the rule. I am sure how else to explain it. Try two: "if a model has" we have a "if" there. If tells of one possibility. It is not stating that models with only with two melee weapons get an extra attack. It is not an if and only if statement. If does not exclude non melee weapons which are allowed by page 24.

No, page 24 does not allow non melee weapons. It has explicit permission for melee weapons and pistols (which are also melee weapons). Cite permission for any other type of weapon.

majortwitch wrote:
The way that is worded are pistols are only counted as close combat weapons during the assault. So that would mean they would have two weapons outside of the assault yet only one during. So a moot point as that leaves them with a single weapon in the assault.

But back to first point! What stops you from using the bolt gun as your second weapon? The +1 Two Weapons is wide open. And bolt gun is not two handed, so what am i missing there.

Yes, while not in Assault, the Space marine has no Melee weapon and defaults to the assumed Melee weapon.

Once the Space marine is in assault though, he has a melee weapon(the Pistol, which in assault is a normal CCW), so no longer has the assumed Melee weapon.

So in any given Phase the Space marine has exactly 1 Melee weapon.

This also comes up all the time, you are not going to find some new argument for 2 weapons, a model only has 2 weapons when it actually has 2+ weapons, and it only actually uses 1 weapon for any given attack.

Yeah this is an odd look at the rules. I like how he broke it up with the phases.

So in the shooting phase we look at the gear. Marine = Boltgun, Bolt pistol, frak grenades, krak grenades. which weapons have a shooting profile? He can shoot with the boltgun or the pistol, or throw a grenade.

Then he gets in to an assault. again we look at the wargear. The boltgun cannot be used as a close combat weapon, the pistol can though! So he gets the normal attack for having one close combat weapon, this would be the same as if he did NOT have a pistol. Benefit to having a pistol though is that marines can still fire something before charging.

If he had a Chainsword AND a bolt pistol, that is 2 close combat weapons, so he would get a +1 attack for having two weapons that can be used in an assault.

rigeld2 wrote:

No, page 24 does not allow non melee weapons. It has explicit permission for melee weapons and pistols (which are also melee weapons). Cite permission for any other type of weapon.

And back to my first post!

majortwitch wrote:

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two singlehanded weapons (often a Melee weapon and or pistol in each hand) get +1 Attack. Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit; you only get one extra Attack, even if you have four arm and a sword in each.

Key phrase here, OFTEN a melee and or pistol. The word often leave the possibilities wide open because the +1 attacks are no longer exclusive to melee weapons and pistols. Other ramifications of this that a Space Marine Terminator with a power sword and assault cannon, neither weapon has the two handed rule and no weapon has a one handed rule, would have 3 attacks.

If the word often was replaced with only on page 24 we would not* be talking right now.

Run charcaradons if you want a tactical to have 2 ccw. Just means you lose the 24" rapid fire bolters.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Run charcaradons if you want a tactical to have 2 ccw. Just means you lose the 24" rapid fire bolters.

Or take both for 1 ppm.

Can you do that? I missed that rule!

majortwitch wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, page 24 does not allow non melee weapons. It has explicit permission for melee weapons and pistols (which are also melee weapons). Cite permission for any other type of weapon.

And back to my first post!

majortwitch wrote:

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two singlehanded weapons (often a Melee weapon and or pistol in each hand) get +1 Attack. Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit; you only get one extra Attack, even if you have four arm and a sword in each.

Key phrase here, OFTEN a melee and or pistol. The word often leave the possibilities wide open because the +1 attacks are no longer exclusive to melee weapons and pistols. Other ramifications of this that a Space Marine Terminator with a power sword and assault cannon, neither weapon has the two handed rule and no weapon has a one handed rule, would have 3 attacks.

If the word often was replaced with only on page 24 we would not* be talking right now.

Yes, the possibilities are open.
Have you found permission yet? That rule only tells you in general what allows it. Page 51 reminds you, specifically, what is required.
You cannot pretend to satisfy one and not the other - you must satisfy both. Your interpretation ignores one of the two rules.

Okay so this a full run down of things:

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two singlehanded weapons (often a Melee weapon and or pistol in each hand) get +1 Attack. Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit; you only get one extra Attack, even if you have four arm and a sword in each.

The first restriction is that weapon must be singlehanded. The is a two handed special rule but there is no "one handed" special rule. Bolt pistols and boltguns have no special rule of two handed, so therefore both are able to used in a single hand. Key word here, OFTEN a melee and or pistol. The word often leave the possibilities wide open because the +1 attacks are no longer exclusive to melee weapons and pistols. Furthering this the use of the world weapon in the last part. "models with more than two weapons" nowhere in there is the word melee. This fails to exclude boltguns or other ranged weapons.

No Specified Melee Weapon: If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.

This pretty straight forward, no weapon listed the model is still counted as having a CCW. Even if the model only has a boltgun it has two weapons.

TYPE: A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Rapid Fire or Salvo. These rules (found on the next two pages) measure a weapon's portability and affect the way they can be fired, depending whether or not the model carrying them moved that turn. A shooting weapon can only be used to make Shooting attacks.

The boltgun, or any other gun, isn't being used to make the extra attack. It is there to qualify for the second attack. You need two single handed weapons to gain the benefit. Adhering strictly to this would this mean the pistol could not be used as CCW? Other rules supersede this such as the +1 Two Weapons rule.

MORE THAN ONE WEAPON: Unless otherwise stated, if model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase. If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons. However, it's worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 Attack in close combat (see page24).

The first sentence is not relevant to this, and it does not present any issues either. From the start: "If a model has more than one Melee weapon" the models in question do not have more than one melee weapon. Thus voids the rest of text because it is a continuation of it. So we are back to the "if". IF: a conjunction used to indicate the circumstances that would have to exist in order for a event to happen. If the model happens to have two or more MELEE weapons you are required to choose one for use. The models in question do not have multiple melee weapons and cannot choose. If nothing else you seem to be using the "However" clause out of context, it is one half of the rule. It is a reminding the player that if you happen to have multiple melee weapons you can benefit from the rule on page 24.

I fail see how this is not accounting for all applicable rules

Did you read the section after "No Specified Melee Weapons"?

It's called "Pistols as Close Combat Weapons".
From that section "A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon" it then goes on to give it a profile for close combat. This isn't restricted to the assault phase either. So at all times a model with a pistol has a Specified Close Combat Weapon.