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To immediately get smoked next turn. We already have Sternguard to do that with Combi Meltas, who do it far more reliably without running the risk of Deepstrike mishap.

 koooaei wrote:
U need just 5 and meltabombs to kaboom any vehicle. That'd be 150 pts. Fair deal.

That's still way too much for 5 meqs. I would never use them.

But making them cheap and give the ability to charge from deepstrike is not a good way to go either. What else can they propose now without a charge from ds? Asm ++. But 6-th ed is not very kind to asm type of armies so they will still be in vain.

Stating that 150 pts is too much for a unit that can take down any tank or wreck faces to a dedicated shooty unit without a need to ride across the board is just wrong. Or you want to make another eldar-style cheap rediculously op stuff that everyone will hate playing against?

 koooaei wrote:
Stating that 150 pts is too much for a unit that can take down any tank or wreck faces to a dedicated shooty unit without a need to ride across the board is just wrong. Or you want to make another eldar-style cheap rediculously op stuff that everyone will hate playing against?

I can kill any vehicle with R10 in the game with an Ork Boy, but that doesn't make the Ork Boy OP. You've got 12" of scatter, random reserves and random charge distances to deal with before you even get to roll to-hit with your Vanguard Veterans. They're just not reliable in any way, 25 PPM is way too much.

 koooaei wrote:
But making them cheap and give the ability to charge from deepstrike is not a good way to go either. What else can they propose now without a charge from ds? Asm ++. But 6-th ed is not very kind to asm type of armies so they will still be in vain.

Stating that 150 pts is too much for a unit that can take down any tank or wreck faces to a dedicated shooty unit without a need to ride across the board is just wrong. Or you want to make another eldar-style cheap rediculously op stuff that everyone will hate playing against?

No. The marines are in a rough spot in terms of pricing, as one is tempted to charge for the "durability". Due to the way the game works currently, 25 ppm MIGHT be FAIR, but it's not VIABLE. I would still never use this unit. I guess one logical conclusion is that you'd have to go cheaper. Another is that marines are just very difficult to properly price when they are getting picked up like Ork boyz. Which means they need to be cheaper? I guess? But not all lists can pick up marines like Ork boyz. Like other marine lists........ AHHH head exploded.

Well, than no charging from deep-strike. Just make them a couple points over the assault marines and wait for the new edition to make such forces viable again.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say no. We're still contending with random reserves, random scatter, random charge distance, risking deep strike mishap - all for five guys to sit still and be shot. That literally does nothing to solve the situation.

VVs need to be able to charge upon arrival , because any other situation just makes five expensive, dead MEQs. assaulting into a squad gives them some much needed survivability, as long as you play your cards right. For roughly 25PPM, this seems fair IMO (as it is all, at this point, speculative opinion.)

On top of this, you're proposing to omit assault from deepstrike to prevent an alpha strike on a vehicle, correct? In that case, Marine players just take Sternguard with combi meltas - in exactly the same way as they always have. Besides, a lone Meltabomb doesn't have that much of a chance to wipe a vehicle.

So if we reconsider re-priced VVs, say 25PPM with 10 point power weapons, that's 185 points for five MEQs with power weapons and JPs. The unit's expensive and fragile, but i can hit where you need it to hit when you need it to.

For the melta strategy, again at 25PPM, you get 130 points for a single meltabomb attack. The unit can also be shot at the next turn by anything that can see it, has no AP weapons, and is still expensive for 5 MEQ wounds.

I mean, I'd only run the PW loadout because I'm doing 1st company Veterans and want more diversity than Assault Termies and Sternguard. Useable but not broken IMO.

Now I'll wait for someone to come along and tell me I'm wrong

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If you allow them to assault from deepstrike - you need to make them more expensive. Cause the only ones who can do it right now are vulcha boyz. And they're just orkses with 6+ armor, ini 2 and no safe mechanics on deepstrike unlike locator beacons sm have. Also, if you declare you want to charge from deepstrike - you instantly kill d3 boyz and it does count towards assault results. And zaggy is pretty costly. 10 boyz with zaggy cost 200+ pts.

You forgot Blood Angels' Vanguard Veterans, who have Descent of Angels for increased Deep Strike accuracy, though they're unfortunately thirty points a guy with jump packs before upgrade weapons. Twenty-point assault-from-Deep-Strike Vanguard Veterans that still have to pay for any upgrade weapons and don't come with a native Deep Strike accuracy buff doesn't seem overly outrageous; they could be as much as 25pts base and they'd still be usable, though.

The Blood Angels version is a hold over from 5th, and will disappear when they get a 6th codex.

Every 6th Codex that's been released has removed the ability to assault out of reserves, and both Blood Angels and Orks will lose theirs as well.

VVs just need to come with jump packs base, and make their Power Weapons be 10ppm, rather than 15.

29pts for a Jump Pack and a Power Weapon is pretty fair, imo.

 liquidjoshi wrote:


For the melta strategy, again at 25PPM, you get 130 points for a single meltabomb attack. The unit can also be shot at the next turn by anything that can see it, has no AP weapons, and is still expensive for 5 MEQ wounds.

Actually, each of them can take a meltabomb for 5 pts. So, 5 meltabombz.

Ok. So they can probably nuke a vehicle. And then get slaughtered the turn after. At 150 points. Most vehicles don't really run to that many points. Unless you're hitting something in the ballpark of a Leman Russ or higher, you won't be making your points back. At best, it's a one for one trade off unit, if you use it like this.

If you really want, we'll make Meltabombs sergeant only.

It should be worse than 1 for 1 tradeoff. U don't need a transport. U don't need to footslog across the field. U don't disapear the moment you kill something.
It's allready quite a powerful tactical ability to threaten any vehicle or small unit on the battlefield. If you don't want to get it for ~150 pts...just get a slight point decrease changing nothing else.
Making them cheap, charging from deepstrike, allowing to take any special weapons you want...what's the point? Just count them as wave serpents and call it a day U shouldn't get everything at once.

i think V V's are good i use them with chapter master or chaplain and i have never lost a full 10 man V V squad
and lost 5 men once but chaplain lived.

 koooaei wrote:
It should be worse than 1 for 1 tradeoff. U don't need a transport. U don't need to footslog across the field. U don't disapear the moment you kill something.
It's allready quite a powerful tactical ability to threaten any vehicle or small unit on the battlefield. If you don't want to get it for ~150 pts...just get a slight point decrease changing nothing else.
Making them cheap, charging from deepstrike, allowing to take any special weapons you want...what's the point? Just count them as wave serpents and call it a day U shouldn't get everything at once.

But that's the thing, we're trying to make them usable. Preferably beyond suicide melta units (which, as we've discussed, is already done better by other units.) Assault from reserves makes sense, it actually tactically fairly stupid, TBH, after accounting for random charge distance, scatter, mishap results, reserve rolls. In theory, it is potentially broken, in practice... well, It's unlikely that you'll land exactly where you want.
Look at it this way. Are BA Vanguard, which can still pull the tactic you're suggesting (Deepstrike, meltabomb gak) considered OP, or even slightly competitive? No. While I do agree that dropping the points, and giving them Assault from DS could make them broken, I think a more realistic view is that really, they'll only make it, what, half the time? Let's break it down.

They've got to land within 12" of their target, already offset by at least 1.001" before scatter. Boxcars means they'll be out of charge range.
If they do scatter, they have to hope not to hit terrain, another unit (including the one they want to assault), and if they do, will at best be put back in reserve, at worst just die.
So, lets assume they scatter an average of seven inches, outside of terrain or units. With some luck, they can see their target. Excellent. Now they simply have to contend with random charge distance. If they make it to the target, let's assume it's a vehicle, they now have to hit, penetrate (granted, not hard with melta bombs), and, crucially, destroy the vehicle. By exploding it.
Not only does the explosion cause 0.55 wounds, but it also leaves them perfectly exposed to enemy fire. Assaulting a vehicle from deepstrike is a large gamble for a 1 for 1 payoff. Even if the vehicle isn't destroyed, they'll be open to enemy fire, as a vehicle (walkers withstanding), cannot be locked in combat.

But what about infantry? They get overwatch. Where even one casualty will take not just a large chunk of the unit's wounds and hitting power, but also likely cancel their charge. Should the vanguard make it and sweep or wipe out the unit, they'll be exposed to enemy shooting, just as if they assaulted a vehicle. The only way they can stay safe is waiting out of sight for a turn (making Assault from Deepstrike pointless), or hoping to tie up a squad through the enemy turn and finish it next turn.

Ok, I do agree with you that they can be game changers. But isn't that the point of the Vanguard? To strike where they will be most effective? Sorry, fluff bunny got ahead of me there... I don't think Vanguard in this way will be OP, but effective in the hands of a smart player. I'd also like to point out that one of the reasons the FarSun bomb, which uses similar tactics, is so effective is because of Farsight's Warlord trait removing scatter.

Tweaks wise, I think we can take this in one of two ways. Either:
Reduce points costs: 18-20 PPM, cheaper power weapons, stock JPs, but no assault from DS.
OR
Keep points as they are. Add JPs stock, and Assault from DS.

I think I'll try the latter in a few games and report back. If they're OP, we can re-nerf them somewhat. Sounds good? Good

 koooaei wrote:
It should be worse than 1 for 1 tradeoff. U don't need a transport. U don't need to footslog across the field. U don't disapear the moment you kill something.
It's allready quite a powerful tactical ability to threaten any vehicle or small unit on the battlefield. If you don't want to get it for ~150 pts...just get a slight point decrease changing nothing else.
Making them cheap, charging from deepstrike, allowing to take any special weapons you want...what's the point? Just count them as wave serpents and call it a day U shouldn't get everything at once.

This comes back to meq's lack of durability in 6th. Any bells and whistles you tack onto meqs that doesn't improve their durability makes them an even bigger point sink and target on your opponent's turn. I actually agree with GW in getting rid of this mechanic. In a TAC environment, paying 150 pts for these guys is still too much, yet it doesn't seem fair to make them cheaper. It's all because marines have to pay for advantages that don't matter much anymore (like power armor).

Now make these guys guardsmen that can deepstrike and assault with meltabombs. How much are they worth? Maybe 90 pts? Then it becomes a value pick.