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So the general agreement is that the nids took a hit with this last release. While some people still hold out there will be a miracle build found in the next month or two, I'm not holding my breath. But that's not really what I'm wondering either. My question is do you think there will be any patch work in the up comming dataslates to balance it out? Its not very likely but if gw decides to appease nid players I could see them throwing in an extra set of cheesy rules at a few units to win us over. Don't get me wrong, I dont think they would do this to make us happy, I think they would do this to sell more units. With the way this codex was received I doubt to many players are In line to start a new nid army, which means a loss of sales, at a time when an army should be selling it's strongest.

So is there any precedence for this type of thing? Has an army or unit ever come out too under powered so gw threw out a revised codex or set of rules with out waiting for a new edition? Or are updates of that sort just for the need hammer?

I still love my nids regadless, but I'm definetly looking to the future wondering what the possibilities will be.

Internet anger is so much easier than internet praise.

Instead of assuming that Nids are in worse shape, I'd suggest going around the country and visiting a couple thousand gaming shops and see what people are really playing.

Sorry to sound a bit rude, but this is foolishness. Nids may not stand up against Tau and Eldar but there are 9 other codexs that they have to fight against too let alone thousands of players who don't use internet lists. I think in the grand scheme of things, Nids will still be fun and competitive for your average non WAAC players.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Internet anger is so much easier than internet praise.

Instead of assuming that Nids are in worse shape, I'd suggest going around the country and visiting a couple thousand gaming shops and see what people are really playing.

Sorry to sound a bit rude, but this is foolishness. Nids may not stand up against Tau and Eldar but there are 9 other codexs that they have to fight against too let alone thousands of players who don't use internet lists. I think in the grand scheme of things, Nids will still be fun and competitive for your average non WAAC players.

Well said, Exalted!

GW isn't gonna roll that codex back and a dataslate isn't going to fix it. I'm sure this codex is just gonna continue the job the previous codex started, shrinking the Tyranid player base. Some will stay, some will leave (as I did) and not many will join the Tyranid ranks. Competitive or not, that codex is less fun than the previous. Which itself was underwhelming in the fun department.

 60mm wrote:
GW isn't gonna roll that codex back and a dataslate isn't going to fix it. I'm sure this codex is just gonna continue the job the previous codex started, shrinking the Tyranid player base. Some will stay, some will leave (as I did) and not many will join the Tyranid ranks. Competitive or not, that codex is less fun than the previous. Which itself was underwhelming in the fun department.

This guy gets it. 5th and 6th edition Nids stomp your average Marine player so its power level is not of that much of a concern considering it only struggles against what it struggled against last edition (Taudar, Mechdar, Venom Spam, French Bakery). But the main problem is it's less fun then its crappy predecessor. Data slates force you take too much costly junk to ever be good.

What with all the anger? The new nid codex is good, less over powered units but the once that are left for the most part got much cheaper. And it is also fun as the internal balance between the MC's became much better.

GW isn't interested in veterans updating their Tyranid armies. they want to sell the Big Bad Bugs to new recruits.

By definition, newbies won't have any knowledge or opinion on how good or bad a codex might be, so nothing needs to be fixed.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Internet anger is so much easier than internet praise.

Instead of assuming that Nids are in worse shape, I'd suggest going around the country and visiting a couple thousand gaming shops and see what people are really playing.

Sorry to sound a bit rude, but this is foolishness. Nids may not stand up against Tau and Eldar but there are 9 other codexs that they have to fight against too let alone thousands of players who don't use internet lists. I think in the grand scheme of things, Nids will still be fun and competitive for your average non WAAC players.

Really well said. I mean, why, take thousands of peoples opinions from the book's online reception, such a silly thing to do when it's so much easier to just visit multiple thousands of shops in real life to gather opinions. And definitely don't make such assumptions that Tyranids are in worse shape based off reading the codex and most likely your own played games, this is hardly a valid opinion until you've eye witnessed it at thousands of different locations. Then you might have a foot to stand on. And from this point, you can ask such questions enquiring to the possibility of a further release or update to fix the Tyranid race and make it more fun. I'd also suggest waiting three months just to rule out every possibility of there actually being a Grimoire on the page of the codex that everybody forget to read. Then we can get down to business.

Demons don't have a synaps rule and the whole nid codex lives and dies on the idea that somehow the opponent is either unable or unwilling to kill those synaps units . And it is going to be rather hard for nids to run more then 6-7 of those . There is also the problem of nid "must haves" clocking a bit over 1000pts ,It ain't bad if your normal are 1999+ , but if your meta is 1500 pts, the nids become a lot less flexible and synaps , becomes a bigger problem .

On the other hand there is still 2 supplements coming , who knows what GW puts in them .

 Kilkrazy wrote:
GW isn't interested in veterans updating their Tyranid armies. they want to sell the Big Bad Bugs to new recruits.

By definition, newbies won't have any knowledge or opinion on how good or bad a codex might be, so nothing needs to be fixed.

Over the years I have seen dozens of new players grab a small force of the weak army and quit all together in a months time because of it. GW needs to figure out if all codexs are tau/elder level or NIds level. No army that gets handed it more often than not is fun. honestly I would keep newbies away from this dex so they don't scare away. My local Nids player who won almost all his games before just took a bad lose to BA. I didn't see the game so don't have details just sat there listening to him mop.

but hey what do I know

I think Nids are literally the most restrictive least fun army at any level. I just can't think of an army wide mechanic less fun than Synapse. Feel free to share one.

Supporting Fire... for Nid players

Incredibly punishing Instinctive Behaviour, a bad troops section, lack of allies/ability to ally with itself and only codex powers (of which there is only one discipline with a substandard primaris) makes the book really restrictive. If they fixed those issues it would've actually been a pretty decent codex.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Internet anger is so much easier than internet praise.
...

It's bee said several times already but exalt for that Dakkanaut.

Fun is subjective and when a new the dex comes out some people will love it and some will hate it.

I'm quite a fan myself, some new bugs, my beloved Carnifex is back in the mix with a vengeance our own outside the galaxy psi power list, Synapse is really relevant like the fluff. I won't be winning any GT's with it but since I haven't been to one in a *long* time that's fine, the army makes for some fun lists.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Internet anger is so much easier than internet praise.
...

It's bee said several times already but exalt for that Dakkanaut.

Fun is subjective and when a new the dex comes out some people will love it and some will hate it.

I'm quite a fan myself, some new bugs, my beloved Carnifex is back in the mix with a vengeance our own outside the galaxy psi power list, Synapse is really relevant like the fluff. I won't be winning any GT's with it but since I haven't been to one in a *long* time that's fine, the army makes for some fun lists.

Fun is indeed subjective.

We haven't found synapse a massive issue in three games against pretty tough opposition (no Tau so far, but we got stomped by them with our old list anyway); we actually have a more interesting force now.

Altho we were forced to do what everyone else has done, ie go out and buy a venomthrope, I gotta say - what a beautiful model. It's kinda my favorite nid now, and even tho it just sits there it's a laugh to get a 2 up save. Looking forward to trying some Broodlord packs, too.

I agree that, while we took two key nerfs - biomancy and IB - we didn't get anything truly thrilling to make up for it, so the codex really did fell kind of flat. But cumulatively, the more banal changes, eg points reduction, plus the odd good unit like the Crone, have forced a change that we're, yes, having fun with.

I knew the new Codex had every chance of being terrible, but I have always wanted a 'Nid army, and decided some of the "deals" around launch, with the Swarm box, etc... made this a good time.

I have been honestly having a blast. Yes, one person, subjective, etc... but honestly, my local meta has good players, but no Tau/Eldar ones, and amongst what we do have, I've done well.

Without question, Synapse is an awful restrictive, almost flat-out debuff to an entire faction, but the units themselves, even the supposedly terrible psychic-powers table, etc... have proven to be thematic, fun, and have a chance at winning against all but the lists that give EVERYONE problems.

I also outright hate the assertion that new players are morons and that a mediocre dex will scare them away from the game. What clown is of such fragile ego that they get into a hobby, expect to dominate immediately, and then quit if it doesn't happen?

So, in my obviously worthless opinion as a new 'Nid player, I can only say that Synapse being what it is (more the abysmal IB tables really, not the Synapse concept), and Warlord table is downright bad.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I
I also outright hate the assertion that new players are morons and that a mediocre dex will scare them away from the game. What clown is of such fragile ego that they get into a hobby, expect to dominate immediately, and then quit if it doesn't happen?

I think the assertion is more that the mediocre dex will scare players away from making new nid armies. Release of a new codex isn't scheduled to make new players get into the hobby, they didn't even know about the last codex yet.


Mediocre is also being quite generous.

 60mm wrote:
GW isn't gonna roll that codex back and a dataslate isn't going to fix it. I'm sure this codex is just gonna continue the job the previous codex started, shrinking the Tyranid player base. Some will stay, some will leave (as I did) and not many will join the Tyranid ranks. Competitive or not, that codex is less fun than the previous. Which itself was underwhelming in the fun department.

Pretttttty much. I'm busting out my Nids at the moment because I want to see what the new book has available (and because it means I can finally use my 5 Carnifexes guilt-free), but I can't see me using them more than my Wolves and Guard. Everything's too fragile, being forced to footslog is tedious, synapse is potentially brutal, etc. Oh, and this comes from experience with a pair of casual lists too, I'd hate to see how I stack up versus Eldar.

As a nid (and other army, perspective helps) player, I am going to disagree with the OP; the nids can compete and there are builds in the book.

The problems most nid players have with the book are not about how strong or competitive it is, but in how dull and uninspired most of it feels.

The dataslates are designed to sell more models, that is what we will get. We are also I suspect going to get something (dataslate or otherwise) to allow for multiple detachments - subtle wording here and there in the book hints at this.

The book is boring and bland, its not weak.
Its just bad.

I don't think we will be super competitive, however we will be okay in more casual environments. It is very bland and boring however, just like the last codex. Almost none of the units function as described. And the fact that all melee stuff STILL costs more than shooting is ridiculous. Hormagaunts should be 4 points per model. There is just nothing remaining in the codex that says "We are the most alien race" instead of "We are just like marines, only slightly worse with less options."

Even the model special rules are boring. Living Battering Ram is boring. D3 hammer of wrath hits is boring. They could have totally done something interesting with them like "If the carnifex runs, record the amount rolled, he may only move half the distance. During the next movement phase, the carnifex may add that distance to their movement value, but may not turn more than 90 degrees. This represents the difficulty in such a massive beast getting moving, but once it is going, it's hard to stop.

They even copied and pasted half the rules that didn't work before. I still, to this day, have never marked the spot where a Trygon tunnel is, because of the unreliability of it. I would never keep a unit in reserves to come in from it, because the risk that the unit comes in from my board edge is too high, and everything else is coming in isn't eligible. They are already dedicated to coming in from deepstrike or outflanking.

Hell, I love that they added some new fluff in the codex where the Tyranids actually win, only to get to the end of the story where you remember that they are all part of the doomed hive fleets. So again in the fluff, Tyranids win battles and lose wars.

fwiw, the two main tyranid players at my flgs are unbeatable in apocalypse games. as in neither of them has lost an apoc game at all ever.

 Rotary wrote:

So is there any precedence for this type of thing? Has an army or unit ever come out too under powered so gw threw out a revised codex or set of rules with out waiting for a new edition? Or are updates of that sort just for the need hammer?

Chaos got a 3.5 Codex back in the day, and although it took Chaos from being severe;y under-powered to being brutally over-powered, it was also one of the most interesting books GW have ever produced, absolutely loaded with ideas, fluff and a complete willingness to (try and) make Chaos everything it should be.

It's not without precedent, but I'm not holding my breath.

[quote=NewTruthNeomaxim 578520 6517692 null
I also outright hate the assertion that new players are morons and that a mediocre dex will scare them away from the game. What clown is of such fragile ego that they get into a hobby, expect to dominate immediately, and then quit if it doesn't happen?

.

IDK about the rest of it, but it is true that the Synapse rule and lack of allies are two problems that Tyranids are the only army to suffer from.

The question is whether other factors were enhanced in order to compensate.

 Rotary wrote:

So is there any precedence for this type of thing? Has an army or unit ever come out too under powered so gw threw out a revised codex or set of rules with out waiting for a new edition? Or are updates of that sort just for the need hammer?

I still love my nids regadless, but I'm definetly looking to the future wondering what the possibilities will be.

Was there a precedence? I believe yes there was. Codex"Chaos Space Marines 3.5.

From what I read, CSM 3.0 was bad for what ever reason so CSM 3.5 came out.

Makumba wrote:

I think the assertion is more that the mediocre dex will scare players away from making new nid armies. Release of a new codex isn't scheduled to make new players get into the hobby, they didn't even know about the last codex yet.

Isn't the nid codex the first one in years that didn't sell out fast on limited edition army books?

I believe so, which is still for the most part a relevant statistic only to the current playerbase. It just means that the book was so unpopular that almost nobody jumped onboard the nid train like they did the other releases, and that current nid players boycotted the nid dex. The release of new codex is extremely unlikely to attract new players to the hobby.

I'm having a lot of fun with the new codex. I started playing Warhammer last year with the old dex and the new one has really made me think a lot as a general, and I enjoy that.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Internet anger is so much easier than internet praise.

And trotting out this tired position, being dismissive of specific, clearly-stated, and widely-held concerns because hey...fools gonna assume! Right...

 Jayden63 wrote:
Instead of assuming that Nids are in worse shape, I'd suggest going around the country and visiting a couple thousand gaming shops and see what people are really playing.

Nice attempt to move the goalposts. Let's stick to what we can actually evaluate, shall we? I'm thinking the prevelence of people expressing unhappiness with the codex actually means that there are a significant number of people unhappy with the codex. Crazy, right?

 Jayden63 wrote:
Sorry to sound a bit rude, but this is foolishness. Nids may not stand up against Tau and Eldar but there are 9 other codexs that they have to fight against too let alone thousands of players who don't use internet lists. I think in the grand scheme of things, Nids will still be fun and competitive for your average non WAAC players.

I can't disagree with the assertion that people will find playing nids fun because hey, people have fun throwing square chunks of plastic and counting pips. Huzzah! There is no accounting for taste. As for being competitive why don't you actually back up your claim? Let me break it down for you: competitive means "as good as or better than others of the same kind : able to compete successfully with others". Are you claiming that Tyranids are at least on par with all other codices? Bullgak. I see the inability to take allies as a critical failing of this book.

I expect that sluggish sales would prompt a move to redress the issue. Of course, that would require people in decision making positions to not have their heads firmly planted up their own butts. In other words, with GW I'm not holding my breath.

It's not like its that popular or won any major events. The fifth edition codex was the worst ever. Tyranids losing access to Biomancy and the nerfs to Tervigons are two of the main reasons why people who've played the army competitively don't like it. Before Tervigon spam IB was always an issue... Yes it's worse now but there are ways to circumvent it. The initial reaction to Tau was much the same and I remember a lot of people dissing Necrons. There is lots of good things though - you'll just have to play different now.

The initial reaction to Tau was before they had actually read the book, just like the reaction to Eldar.

People thought Necrons weren't quite as powerful as GK, SW, IG, etc. Then 6th edition dropped. No one though Necron crunch was bad in 6th. Though people do have legitimate complaints about the fluff.