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Those of you who visit this site often might know, that I have been writing a lot of questions to you guys about Cygnar, and especially the infantry. Basicly, I were planning to play something with either a lot of Stormknights, a lot of Trenchers or a lot of Sword Knights, and I were therefor looking around the web to see what my options was. I don't have an income that can support a wrong purchase, and though I haven't played a single game yet, I like to plan the general idea and feel of future lists, or at least get an Idea of what I would like to get next.

However, everywhere I turn, people tell me the same - Cygnar can't do infantry well. They say that the units are either too specialized, too expensive or too frail to be able to play with seriously. I am then told the exact same thing - You have to get mercs to do your infantry-ing for Cygnar, if you ever want to win a game.

I am sick and tired of this bullsh*t.

First of all, I know that WARMACHINE is a game of synergy and skill - If you can build a list that complements itself and works together like Menoth combined with the Convergence, you can do very well with even the worst of units. I have been told over and over that all units and models have their place, and that you just need to be realized to work. So, when I hear this, I just get tired and annoyed. to me, it doesn't make any sense, that a game with so many options and so many different types of boosts can have one of its main factions be so reliant on models outside of their range. I am not buying it.

The Trenchers are often called a dead dog, who can't repay their cost. I say, maybe we should think a bit like the Protectorate - Get some synergy going. Think of a min. Trencher unit with some rifle Grenades as a roadblock with a Master Gunner at the side, utilizing a Grenadier along with another Trencher to hail death on thy enemy. Have some Rangers nearby to help with the shooting if they have too and maybe some Commandoes at the flank to psych the enemy and shank them when within range. Let some Gunmages use Thunderbolt to push back incoming death-dealers (Mainly 'Jacks), and make sure you have a''Caster who can buff the shooters, like EHaley or Siege, and a Hunter on the Flank to soften up any really heavy thing, so it might be easier to tear apart for a unit of Commandoes or Sword Knights.

As stated, I haven't played a game, so this is all theory. I just don't want to believe that Cygnar can't do with their own units, and refuse to listen to those who tell me I can't do it.

Do you have any comments? Is it really true that Mercs are mandatory for Cygnar, or do you think a clever list and player can get the Cyngarian troops to shine? Let me know in the comments, and please don't be a naysayer - I can't use that. Be open, but realistic, and I might actually be able to use your advices.

No Mercs aren't mandatory for Cygnar.

Everything has its place, it just so happens that two of the best units available for their points cost are Mercs.

If you want to play, have fun etc. etc. you can do an all Cygnar list, if your meta is ultra competative, you may want to go down the Mercs route, but it is very easy to go all Cygnar and have a competative edge.

I think alot of people who haven't played the game are taking what the internet says as gospel... Get what you like, get used to the game and then work out your synergies.

You can quite easily sink 32 points of a 35 point Caine list in to 2 squads of Long Gunners, ATGM w/UA and Black 13th. All infantry and all good with some synergy with their caster.

Long Gunners with Snipe is 18" two shots CRA, these WILL rip apart units and jacks, however you need to set 'em up to shoot at the end of your first turn for the entire game, not leaving you much to take an objective.

Bear in mind, the internet fosters group think. This leads to a collective notion of what's good, with everything else being dismissed.

This group think is dangerous, and bears little resemblance to what actually transpires on the table top.

As a khador player, I frequently see how assault kommandos suck, and how kossites are terrible. Two major tourneys (masters invitationals iirc) were won recently with guys running assault kommandos and kossites in their lists.

There is a reason a lot of people don't go on the forums, or else take them with a large dose of salt. They limit your thinking if you let them.

You want to run trenches and sword knights?

Go for it.

I've seen a trencher bayonet deneghra for the win, and sword knights are ludicrous with stryker2 and nemo.

I wouldn't recommend 'all the trenchers!!!' as a list, but a squad With weapon attachments is a solid investment.

Like the others have said you don't need merc units in Cygnar, but you have to look at the Merc choices that get used generally by Cygnar players and compare them to what we have available in faction which will then give you an idea why they get preferred, especially with access to Jonas Murdoch to make them in faction.

Storm knights and sword knights are fine. Indeed even trencher commandos shine when they are a good fit for a list. Sometimes Cygnar infantry gets a bad rap because nothing in-factions plugs some glaring gaps. Many players voice their frustrations by saying what is available is "Bad" when what they mean is "Cygnar's infantry lineup is bad at two particular, but crucial tasks".

The greatest shortcomings cygnar infantry finds are that nothing is robust enough to hold a scenario zone well and that a majority of them all kill single-wound infantry well but have little ability to crack armor. The two issues combined create a frustrating game of losing all your heavy-hitters to enemy ranged attacks or playing catch-up in scenario.

What it comes down to is that strategic holes need to filled by mercenaries; and those mercenaries get most of the glory.

All that said, Trencher infantry require the skill and finesse of an expert to get the most out of. They can be effective but the difficulty is often perceived as not worth the effort. The DO have cool tricks and good uses but you have to be very good at managing distances, angles, and threats for them to survive to do it twice.They are not a unit I would suggest for a new player but if you feel motivated to play them, then go out, and have fun!

I just want to be clear on this..Cygnar DOES NOT need mercs to be a competitive play faction?

J0kerrMT wrote:
I just want to be clear on this..Cygnar DOES NOT need mercs to be a competitive play faction?

Mercs are designed to complement the "main" factions, even more so in Cygnar that has a greater access to them and as such PP didn't build those answers in faction.

Having said that, a Cygnar list does not need to be comprised mainly of mercs to be a competitive list.

Wherever you are getting the idea that cygnar must take mercs is from a small and narrow minded group. Cygnar has a huge range of mercs to choose from so most lists include mercs but you do not NEED them at all. My buddy does not have a single Marc model and he runs cygnar all the time. They have infantry for any occasion. Storm knights hit quite hard compared to other factions infantry and cygnar has easy access to arcane shield which makes them just as durable as my faction's infantry while being able to inflict similar if not more damage

KingKodo wrote:
Wherever you are getting the idea that cygnar must take mercs is from a small and narrow minded group. Cygnar has a huge range of mercs to choose from so most lists include mercs but you do not NEED them at all. My buddy does not have a single Marc model and he runs cygnar all the time. They have infantry for any occasion. Storm knights hit quite hard compared to other factions infantry and cygnar has easy access to arcane shield which makes them just as durable as my faction's infantry while being able to inflict similar if not more damage

I am glad to hear this..as for where I and other people got the idea....its all over the internet....we try to do some research before we post. Almost all articles about Cygnar say that you NEED to have mercs. Again..good to hear that you don't.

Honestly, you won't learn much about the game until you play it. Read the internet will give you other people's generalizations about it. You might find that you can be competitive without mercs, or you might find that you just love mercs so much that you can't imagine not using them in your list.

Yep. Time to find your PressGanger and get some table time in!

I couldn't imagine playing Siege without Rienholdt. Those two are like two pees in a pod.

As I said in the other thread, it depends on what you need and what caster you are playing.

J0kerrMT wrote:
I am glad to hear this..as for where I and other people got the idea....its all over the internet....we try to do some research before we post. Almost all articles about Cygnar say that you NEED to have mercs. Again..good to hear that you don't.

There are some must haves mercs for a cygnar player. Mainly these are merc solos though not really units. The Merc duo Lady Aiyana & Master Holt are technically a unit but honestly play more like two solos. Holt is a solid damage dealer with good RAT, two handcannons, two more melee weapons and Virtuoso but zero support abilities to other units. Aiyana is all support and can't deal out damage. I mean there is a reason that Aiyana and holt, eEyriss, Gorman, Rhupert, Rienholdt, and maybe Harlan Versh are IMO must haves for any Cygnar collection. Versh only if you want to use Gallant since he is a cheap way of getting a Morrowan Model on the table for Gallant to accumulate off of.

A lot of Merc solos I just mentioned are often seen outside cygnar in any faction that can play them. Aiyana and Holt are good for the two of the spells Aiyana brings, both Kiss and Lurynsar's Touch helps you deal with incorporeal foes or menoth with Passage. eEyriss's Arcane Interference is SOO useful in cygnar since we lack any sort of upkeep removal in faction (we do have Banishing Ward on one caster and a few models with blessed weapons but that is it). Gorman can win you games with black oil. Rhupert is really useful in any list that runs lots of infantry and Rienholdt is Seige and Sloan's best friend.

I am not saying these model are all auto includes but they are very good in certain lists so they are worth having in your collection. If you are going to use Sloan or Siege include Reinholdt, just do it.

As far as Merc units are concerned they aren't need as much. Boomhowler and his boys are a really good tarpit and Cygnar's in faction infantry just don't work as well for that, though you can use them. Other than that I don't think any other merc unit is really a "must" have per say.

Thanks for your replies!

What you have told me have helped me a lot - I don't mind Mercs as much as I might seem to, but I didn't like how everyone around were talking as you couldn't play Cygnar without using Boomhowler and Co. I just got so dissapointed, but now, reading this, I am getting some of my hope for my future list back.

The mercs I think I might use is Harlan (Because he seems a lot like a Cyngarian anyway), the Speculator (Because Gobber), and the couple of Ruter Shaw and Taryn, perhaps with a Nomad because that thing looks awesome. It's not that I don't want to use them, I just don't like it if I have to.

People tend to tell me that Cyngar lacks tarpits, but I disagree. Sword Knights might not seem like much, but have a full unit paired two and two, give them Arcane Shield and you have an ARM 19 tarpit for 6 points. I don't see how that can't be good. ALternativly, give them an UA and a Centurion and you are looking at a brick that can smash the daylights of most enemies with Flank and the Piston Spear, along with Drive: Pronto.

What would you say to such a brick as the one above?

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Thanks for your replies!

What you have told me have helped me a lot - I don't mind Mercs as much as I might seem to, but I didn't like how everyone around were talking as you couldn't play Cygnar without using Boomhowler and Co. I just got so dissapointed, but now, reading this, I am getting some of my hope for my future list back.

The mercs I think I might use is Harlan (Because he seems a lot like a Cyngarian anyway), the Speculator (Because Gobber), and the couple of Ruter Shaw and Taryn, perhaps with a Nomad because that thing looks awesome. It's not that I don't want to use them, I just don't like it if I have to.

People tend to tell me that Cyngar lacks tarpits, but I disagree. Sword Knights might not seem like much, but have a full unit paired two and two, give them Arcane Shield and you have an ARM 19 tarpit for 6 points. I don't see how that can't be good. ALternativly, give them an UA and a Centurion and you are looking at a brick that can smash the daylights of most enemies with Flank and the Piston Spear, along with Drive: Pronto.

What would you say to such a brick as the one above?

I wouldn't use the UA plus Centurion, its too many points that can be shut down quite easily.

The unit choices for Cygnar are great and varied. Their best tarpit of sorts are the Precursors with some area buffs like deceleration and Sword Knights.

Your tactics using Arcane Shield on the unit is perfect, unless you have multiple cases of Shady B********g Retribution Elves in your meta. I've played 15 games with my Cygnar against Ret and I have major issues with them as most of the players bring multiple units that ignore spell buffs to DEF and ARM. This makes Arcane Shield and Deceleration useless.

I've noticed that against other armies, this is much less of a problem.

This is one of the main reasons why a lot of competitive players use Mercs over friendly faction units.

Boomhowler doesn't need a defensive buff, he has potential 4+ tough. If use put Decel on them vs any non Ret force, you then have über tough to kill trolls.

Mercs just add more to the army and make it more efficient in places.

Are they needed? No, but they help most situations.

Ive started using Boomhowlers in my list as I'm fed up of using resources to make Cygnar troops tougher with little or no effect. Ret and some other armies can ignore Arcane Shield and Decel on a full unit of Stormblades, but they can't really ignore the 4+ tough of my trolls.

Here's where internet opinion gets explained:
Things like sword knights with arcane shield are wonderful most of the time but a few select -and popular- models can remove upkeep spells. In the face of those lists most people online (who are generally medium-level skill) re-examine their infantry choices and look for comparable points value that relies less on the upkeep. In the case of defensive infantry, Boomhowler and his filthy trolls become an appealing choice since they will survive half the attacks that are thrown at them by virtue of tough alone.

This does NOT make sword knights or arcane shield any worse. It simply means they have a niche vulnerability that is less niche than it probably should be. If you can make lists and plans to defend yourself and maintain scenario presence without crutching on your upkeeps you will do very well for yourself. Never forget you may face a caster with purification or an enemy that employs Eiryss. Always look for alternative means of support.

I know I shouldn't be saying this, but I don't mind that there is a gap somewhere in my lists. I want my stuff to beatable, and to some extend, I want others to follow that example - If you have to do extraordinary feats to defeat my lists, there won't be any fun in it - Only frustration for my co-player. That is not what I want. I want scenarios, where actual battles decide who wins, and not some Screamstar combined with Commander Farstrike and his seven Crisis Suits that Ignore Cover and Reroll to hit. I just want to battle and have fun.

By the by, my meta is, as far as I am concerned, Circle. A lot of Circle. We have quite a bit of youngsters who get some help starting up in the LGS, and they are pretty neat, though unexperienced and a bit unruly - As fit the Devourer Wurm, I Imagine!

I've been using Sword Knights with the UA and a jack marshaled Centurion for the last year. It's absolutely balls to the wall. The only thing that really hurts it is when the opponent knocks down your Centurion, because you can't burn focus on your warcaster during maintenance to stand him up. However, if you bring Runewood, he gives your Sword Knights Reform AND he can stand everything up in his CMD, so he's a great way to get around this weakness. I also bring a Journeyman to put Arcane Shield on the Centurion as well for a really hardy brick that puts out respectable damage.

Now, what others have told you in this thread is true in regards to Purification. This certainly doesn't mean you auto lose if you rely on upkeeps, just prepare yourself for an uphill battle.

 Dais wrote:
Here's where internet opinion gets explained:
Things like sword knights with arcane shield are wonderful most of the time but a few select -and popular- models can remove upkeep spells. In the face of those lists most people online (who are generally medium-level skill) re-examine their infantry choices and look for comparable points value that relies less on the upkeep. In the case of defensive infantry, Boomhowler and his filthy trolls become an appealing choice since they will survive half the attacks that are thrown at them by virtue of tough alone.

This does NOT make sword knights or arcane shield any worse. It simply means they have a niche vulnerability that is less niche than it probably should be. If you can make lists and plans to defend yourself and maintain scenario presence without crutching on your upkeeps you will do very well for yourself. Never forget you may face a caster with purification or an enemy that employs Eiryss. Always look for alternative means of support.

So the knights have the problem and the boomhowler does not..how does that make them not worse?

J0kerrMT wrote:

 Dais wrote:
Here's where internet opinion gets explained:
Things like sword knights with arcane shield are wonderful most of the time but a few select -and popular- models can remove upkeep spells. In the face of those lists most people online (who are generally medium-level skill) re-examine their infantry choices and look for comparable points value that relies less on the upkeep. In the case of defensive infantry, Boomhowler and his filthy trolls become an appealing choice since they will survive half the attacks that are thrown at them by virtue of tough alone.

This does NOT make sword knights or arcane shield any worse. It simply means they have a niche vulnerability that is less niche than it probably should be. If you can make lists and plans to defend yourself and maintain scenario presence without crutching on your upkeeps you will do very well for yourself. Never forget you may face a caster with purification or an enemy that employs Eiryss. Always look for alternative means of support.

So the knights have the problem and the boomhowler does not..how does that make them not worse?

It depends on what you're facing.

For example, I wouldn't take a unit that needed buffs vs an army that can remove them easily. I'd take Boomhowlers.

But with a buff or not sword knights are not better tar pits then boomies. Boomies have bigger bases and +4tough which can save them almost no matter what hits them , they don't care about eEiryess , crossbow knights or magehunters , purification etc . They also don't need a jack to hit real hard , with murdoch they can be in faction , but even without him they still hit hard for less points then knights+jack. One could of course run knights without a jack , just as a cheap tar pit or speed bump unit , but why not take Steelheads for that or Pirates with against tough ?

J0kerrMT wrote:
So the knights have the problem and the boomhowler does not..how does that make them not worse?

Points and versatility.
The knights plus the solo that grants their armor buff cost the same as Boomhowler & Co. The sword knights have a weakness to things that remove the buff, but in games without that removal, the solo can recast the spell on something else after most of the knights die. When you are down to 2-3 survivors you cannot move Boomhowler's tough to another unit but you can move arcane shield.

If you are willing to risk a more difficult game against bad matchups, you are rewarded with a potentially more versatile package.

Makumba wrote:
But with a buff or not sword knights are not better tar pits then boomies. Boomies have bigger bases and +4tough which can save them almost no matter what hits them , they don't care about eEiryess , crossbow knights or magehunters , purification etc . They also don't need a jack to hit real hard , with murdoch they can be in faction , but even without him they still hit hard for less points then knights+jack. One could of course run knights without a jack , just as a cheap tar pit or speed bump unit , but why not take Steelheads for that or Pirates with against tough ?

This is a good point and is the other side of the coin. One option need not be bad for another to fill the tactical role you need better. Can you really say that a list built to make the most of a sword knight jam is better or worse than a list with Boomhowlers' in a vacuum? No, not without examining the rest of the lists and the opposing list and potential metagame. This is what most internet discussion is based on and why Cygnar infantry get such a bad rap.

Personally I use whatever units I feel work best for my list's needs. It often leads me to use mercenaries but I try to always keep the faction choices in mind.
When I was getting into mk2 I tried long gunners and hated them. I sold my unit off. Some time later a list build was made famous using TWO units. I had never considered doubling up on what was bad in my tests but it worked. The area denial and threat saturation of twenty long gunners was far greater than twice ten. I took that lesson to heart and decided to think less in absolutes. That is why I'm here on dakka trying to describe both the ups and downs of cygnar infantry.

J0kerrMT wrote:

 Dais wrote:
Here's where internet opinion gets explained:
Things like sword knights with arcane shield are wonderful most of the time but a few select -and popular- models can remove upkeep spells. In the face of those lists most people online (who are generally medium-level skill) re-examine their infantry choices and look for comparable points value that relies less on the upkeep. In the case of defensive infantry, Boomhowler and his filthy trolls become an appealing choice since they will survive half the attacks that are thrown at them by virtue of tough alone.

This does NOT make sword knights or arcane shield any worse. It simply means they have a niche vulnerability that is less niche than it probably should be. If you can make lists and plans to defend yourself and maintain scenario presence without crutching on your upkeeps you will do very well for yourself. Never forget you may face a caster with purification or an enemy that employs Eiryss. Always look for alternative means of support.

So the knights have the problem and the boomhowler does not..how does that make them not worse?

Easy. Apply spell/ability that removes tough. Eg gallows groves, grievous wounds, sentence of death or the nany, and varied abilities that remove tough. Do that, and boom howlers fold like cards.

Sword knights also gave some nice abilities like flank:war jack which means they're charging with 10+4d6 damage each. Nuts for a 6pt unit. Boom howlers jam. But their killing ability is decent at best.

Sword knights are 'solid'. They're great. Boom howlers are great, but saying they're the only choice is indicative of nothing more than a limited mind.Swird knights have counters? So? Boom howlers have counters too. That's how the game works joker.

Makumba wrote:
But with a buff or not sword knights are not better tar pits then boomies. Boomies have bigger bases and +4tough which can save them almost no matter what hits them , they don't care about eEiryess , crossbow knights or magehunters , purification etc . They also don't need a jack to hit real hard , with murdoch they can be in faction , but even without him they still hit hard for less points then knights+jack. One could of course run knights without a jack , just as a cheap tar pit or speed bump unit , but why not take Steelheads for that or Pirates with against tough ?

That jack doesn't have to be theirs though. Flank works on a faction jack ie one of the ones in a battle group. Have them swarm around a storm wall or stormclad and you're into fun times.
Tough can be taken away, or ignored by an increasing number of abilities, units and spells. Boomies are also only decent at damage delivery due to fairly average mat and rat stats and p+s values.they're also a character unit which means they're restricted to one list. And all those abilities come from boom howler himself. Take him out and the rest suffer greatly. I'm not dismissing boonies. They're a great solid unit. Better than other options? No, merely different.

+4T on medium bases is not even close to what any front line unit that is cygnar can do .

Easy. Apply spell/ability that removes tough. Eg gallows groves, grievous wounds, sentence of death or the nany, and varied abilities that remove tough.

But those aren't common and they require investment of focus/fury or specific units . Stuff that kills sword knights or silver line is common , it is easier to find a unit that can trample small bases or is ment to ignore high arm , when high arm is all the rage . tough ignoring stuff is used only in metas that are troll heavy.

Swird knights have counters? So? Boom howlers have counters too.

only anti tough stuff is a lot less common that stuff that ignore AS or deflection and if someone wants a cheap and powerful 4/6 unit he can take steelheads , they have reach , CMA and powerful charge and don't need a jack near by .

That's how the game works joker.

If anything am a harley .

Makumba wrote:

Easy. Apply spell/ability that removes tough. Eg gallows groves, grievous wounds, sentence of death or the nany, and varied abilities that remove tough.

But those aren't common and they require investment of focus/fury or specific units . Stuff that kills sword knights or silver line is common , it is easier to find a unit that can trample small bases or is ment to ignore high arm , when high arm is all the rage . tough ignoring stuff is used only in metas that are troll heavy.

I think the thing to remember here is that anti-tough isn't necessarily the key to cracking Boomhowler & Co. Enough lead pumped into Boomhowler and the tough dice will eventually betray him. He dies, and the rest of the unit turns into fodder that's about as dangerous as overly spicy peppers or choking on a hotdog (i.e. not all that dangerous). Okay, sure, anti-tough abilities are handy, but not necessary.

As far as the trampling and high arm hunters go, those aren't the types of threats that any small-based unit is going to withstand outright. Instead, I've found it to be more productive to accept that SKs can't stand up to such things, and instead group them in ways to minimize loss and maximize the ability to counterattack anything that decides it wants to go trampling through. With this approach, the threat of an effective counterattack adds to their value as a tar pit/ speed bump, rather than simply relying on being tough to kill as a deterrent.

Cygnar lacks durable zone holding units because of their universal access to mercenaries.

If you want to limit yourself to in-faction choices you'll need to approach list building from a different standpoint.

You'll want to play the ranged game, specifically Gun Mages. While fragile, they do damage at range so they aren't going to suffer as much because they can shoot threats off the table.

Storm-nouns all have the problem of being fragile enough to die to any real shooting while also being enough of a threat in melee to justify taking that fire. Its no secret that stuff dies when storm knights get a charge off, but everybody has the tech to make sure they never get there.

If you want to take stormnouns, you'll want to devote something like Arcane Shield to their protection. That will make them strong enough to not worry about blast damage and enough to make normal anti-infantry shooting less of a threat. The problem is that you'll be trading off protecting your jacks, and Cygnar jacks really like that extra 3 armor.

You definitely make it work.

You might also consider using some mercenaries, especially solos. Rupert in particular. That way, you can have Arcane Shielded Stormknights that either have +1def or Tough. Not a terrible idea or huge investment either, and its only a little 2 pt solo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:


Easy. Apply spell/ability that removes tough. Eg gallows groves, grievous wounds, sentence of death or the nany, and varied abilities that remove tough. Do that, and boom howlers fold like cards.

Death Sentence doesn't remove tough. Its just a reroll against the target unit.

Maybe you meant Silence of Death?

The internet in general seems to follow this line of thinking;



But it really isn't all that dire, sure there are some places mercs fit in well but you can do non merc lists that do pretty well too, as has been outlined above.

Simple fact is that we have far better access to Mercs than the other factions and units like Boomhowlers, Forgeguard, Nyss Hunters and Alexia and the Risen, etc are always going to get banded around as they all do something that we don't do in faction and so get preferred over our own choices especially as we have Jonas Murdoch who can make them in-faction to get the benefit of our Friendly Faction buffs. The reason why people always mention them is usually down to experience and game time.

Do you have to use them of course not. There is nothing stopping you making a pure faction list.

One thing I will say is don't dismiss Mercs out of hand as they have plenty of utility/support solos that help out

Reinholdt, Gorman Di Wulfe, p/e Eyirss, Harlen Versh, Rhupert, Lady Aiyanna & Master Holt, Sylys Wyshnylrr or have their places in our lists.

You also said you haven't played a game. Proof of the pudding is in the eating as they so might be good to get some game time in. :-)

Makumba wrote:
+4T on medium bases is not even close to what any front line unit that is cygnar can do .

To be fair, you can always apply the piper. 4+ tough is solid! but it's not an 'I win' button, not is it a superior option to others, just different. Remember, it's on a model with mediocre offensive abilities, and a character unit to boot.

Makumba wrote:

But those aren't common and they require investment of focus/fury or specific units . Stuff that kills sword knights or silver line is common , it is easier to find a unit that can trample small bases or is ment to ignore high arm , when high arm is all the rage . tough ignoring stuff is used only in metas that are troll heavy.
If anything am a harley .

Two gallows groves and a berzerking warpwolf is far from 'uncommon'. Butcher three has a brutal spell that eliminates tough altogether and he is a new faction staple. Things that deal with tough are more common than you give credence to. It's nit just in metas that are troll heavy - or have you met irusk, terminus, the piper, gator man witchdoctors, or bane officers? All are quite common.

Fact is, dealing with tough is something everyone has to accont for.stuff that kills sword knights is common, sure, but having a six point wall of ten bodies that are arm21 takes a lot to get through too. Tough does not make a unit a better option, just a different one.

Makumba wrote:

only anti tough stuff is a lot less common that stuff that ignore AS or deflection and if someone wants a cheap and powerful 4/6 unit he can take steelheads , they have reach , CMA and powerful charge and don't need a jack near by.

See above. Teching against tough is something people so.
They're also mercenaries. 'Friendly faction' carries a lot of weigh for spells and feats. And as said, sword knights do serious damage fir their points - 4d6 on the charge. It's not hard to have them doing their thing next to a jack either.

Fact is, dealing with tough is something everyone has to accont for.stuff that kills sword knights is common, sure, but having a six point wall of ten bodies that are arm21 takes a lot to get through too. Tough does not make a unit a better option, just a different one.

I see more anti spell hate , then anti tough hate . more units that ignore spell effects more lists with purification then lists that are run to kill tough.. And if a I add murdoch to the trolls I can have the AS too , if it is so good . Then I have both . And boomies aren't the only units with tough I can get , there are pirates too and they are both cheap and good.

'Friendly faction' carries a lot of weigh for spells and feats.

ecain doesn't care , siege doesn't care , ehaley doesn't care . their spells and feats work of regardless what units are taken . Ecain lists are made mostly out of merc units .

And as said, sword knights do serious damage fir their points - 4d6 on the charge.

If the target is engaged by a jack . The good thing about SK is that they are cygnars only 4/6 , well cygnarian cygnars only , cygnar can get other cheap scoring or tough units .