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I am curious about St. Celestine (SoB)'s Ardent blade in close combat. The question basically boils down to whether then can get a bonus for having a 2nd weapon...when she doesn't have a 2nd weapon. Lemme explain so you guys can point out where I'm wrong

The blade is one of those weird Ranged+Melee weapons, in that it has two profiles. At range, it's a flamer template. Close, it's just +2str/AP3. Now where I'm confused is this: I know it's a single weapon (as in, one sword) but with the dual profile - do you treat it like two? Pg 51 breaks down the rules on having melee, having ranged, and the behavior of both in CC... but not if they're combined. I've already verified that it is not a 2-handed weapon (not designated as such) and no longer falls under the old "blessed weapons" rule (automatically 2h). She doesn't have the option of a secondary weapon...apparently picking a dove in her right hand was more important than a bolt pistol ( ) so her single primary weapon is used for both purposes (but not falling under any combi-wep rules). Other IC/HQ characters with similar layouts have, at minimum, both a single CC and single ranged weapon. Daemonblade/Nemesis hammer has secondary effects (but not the combined ranged/melee stats) and can be held 1handed by other Inquisitional units for example.

So -- Does this "single" weapon act as two? I would make the argument that a blade that's white hot and on fire would be making both a slicing strike and secondary burning effect (even if not directly hit by it) as it swaths through... so fluff wise, it would at least be plausible. From the rules (as I read them), since each one has a designated "It's a ranged" and "it's a melee" profile, they are in fact two separate weapons and treated as such for all required checked (CC in my case) - but they're not in each hand.

....maybe I can just count the dove as the Holy Dove of repentance or something


Thanks!

Sorry but no, Same would happen whit Arjac Rockfist as his weapon can be thrown. And the answer is no again it's just one weapon, no bonus to attacks.

 GreatAtuin wrote:
Sorry but no, Same would happen whit Arjac Rockfist as his weapon can be thrown. And the answer is no again it's just one weapon, no bonus to attacks.

Ah, but doesn't he also get a bonus for the shield in his other hand? The fluffy way of allowing it the same +1 bonus in CC as others would get if he did in fact have a weapon (not withstanding using the teleporting hammer behavior) without GW breaking their own rules? From a mechanical standpoint (as much as a grimdark fiction will allow) I can see a teleporting hammer *not* being useful in CC...since you know, you're trying to block/hit people with it at the same time. The flame blade by contrast is more of a AoE affect of simply swinging it.

She get's no such love, and omitted the ability for her to carry anything at all in her hand...which is really really weird when you consider the baseline stats of just about everyone :(

There's no bonus from a storm shield to attacks ever. Part of its rules.

You need two weapons, not one weapon with two uses.

 grendel083 wrote:
There's no bonus from a storm shield to attacks ever. Part of its rules.

His does, or at least - what the interwebs say.

"Anvil Shield: A storm shield that grants an additional attack in the first round of any assault."

Like I said, GW's way of bypassing his offhand on CC since he has a single weapon. But biggest point - he has TWO things, where as poor Celestine is *forced* to only have one. That's the kicker... damn near everyone has the option of at least two weapons, or a single one that takes of both hands. She has 1 hander, that's it - combined weapon profile or not.

You need two weapons, not one weapon with two uses.

Then their rules are flawed, if a character that has a 1handed melee weapon is unable to carry anything in their other hand - and said 1H weapon is not classified as unwieldy or unpredictable in any way. I'd much rather just tell people the flames are coming out of the doves' and get the bonus for the other hand

Not every unit is made to be the same.



If you need a reason for it:

Saint Celestine is such an honorable and valient soul that she refrains from dirty tricks in combat and strives to duel in a fair manner, disdaining extra weaponry for the purity of swordplay.

ncshooter426 wrote:
Then their rules are flawed, if a character that has a 1handed melee weapon is unable to carry anything in their other hand - and said 1H weapon is not classified as unwieldy or unpredictable in any way. I'd much rather just tell people the flames are coming out of the doves' and get the bonus for the other hand

The rules work fine.
Even if the dove was a flamer, it isn't a melee weapon so she's not getting a bonus attack.
There are many many ways they could have given her a bonus attack. Simple fact is they didn't. She has as many attacks as she's intended to have.

 grendel083 wrote:

ncshooter426 wrote:
Then their rules are flawed, if a character that has a 1handed melee weapon is unable to carry anything in their other hand - and said 1H weapon is not classified as unwieldy or unpredictable in any way. I'd much rather just tell people the flames are coming out of the doves' and get the bonus for the other hand

The rules work fine.
Even if the dove was a flamer, it isn't a melee weapon so she's not getting a bonus attack.
There are many many ways they could have given her a bonus attack. Simple fact is they didn't. She has as many attacks as she's intended to have.

1 handed would be a flame pistol, pistols get the bonus w/o the melee designation. But yeah, anyway -- meh, GW pretty much hates sisters anyway between their lackluster codex and the high priced (old) sculpts. Even with her set number of attacks (edit: correction on seraphim - 2vs5, fixed) the damage output is low compared to CC weapons. That is neither here nor there I suppose.

As a side note - can anyone rattle off another HQ character (or anyone for that matter) limited to only a single handed (swappable or not) weapon?

ncshooter426 wrote:
As a side note - can anyone rattle off another HQ character (or anyone for that matter) limited to only a single handed (swappable or not) weapon?

Ghazghkull Thraka, Mad Dok Grotsnik, Wazdakka Gutsmek.
All armed with Power Klaws, so can't claim the x2 melee weapon bonus.

Vulkan He'Stan uses a two-handed weapon, Captain Lysander can't claim it either...

lysander and vulkan and cato sicarus


Well vulkan and cato have 2 handed weapons.........

ncshooter426 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
There's no bonus from a storm shield to attacks ever. Part of its rules.

His does, or at least - what the interwebs say.

"Anvil Shield: A storm shield that grants an additional attack in the first round of any assault."

Like I said, GW's way of bypassing his offhand on CC since he has a single weapon. But biggest point - he has TWO things, where as poor Celestine is *forced* to only have one. That's the kicker... damn near everyone has the option of at least two weapons, or a single one that takes of both hands. She has 1 hander, that's it - combined weapon profile or not.

You need two weapons, not one weapon with two uses.

Then their rules are flawed, if a character that has a 1handed melee weapon is unable to carry anything in their other hand - and said 1H weapon is not classified as unwieldy or unpredictable in any way. I'd much rather just tell people the flames are coming out of the doves' and get the bonus for the other hand

Yep only first round of any assault so it's more like a hammer of wrath attack than a 2nd weapon.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Not every unit is made to be the same.



If you need a reason for it:

Saint Celestine is such an honorable and valient soul that she refrains from dirty tricks in combat and strives to duel in a fair manner, disdaining extra weaponry for the purity of swordplay.

The purity sword play - I like it. Now let's extrapolate.

Given her nature of being in harbinger of the Emperors Divine Justice™ and relying on her blade to render said judgment, one would assume she is a master swordsman. One would also assume that, given the fighting style of 1 handed, she be extremely quick (elder who?) on attacks. Let's face it, 1H fighting tends to favor finesse over brute strength, and (given that it's your *only* weapon) you would wield it with greater precision than someone with say - a jammed bolt pistol in their hand. I dunno about you, but someone who's whole life revolves around that sword is probably more proficient at it (read: attacks better) than someone who is dual wielding (and isn't accustom to actually fighting w/ both weapons). So, pure fluff stacking, there legitimate reason to confer a new style of bonus to units who explicitly only use one *balanced* weapon.

Now I'm really curious if there are other GW units out there with a similar profile to her - 1 handers only w/ no sidearms or options to change.

 GreatAtuin wrote:


Yep only first round of any assault so it's more like a hammer of wrath attack than a 2nd weapon.

No its really not like hammer of wrath.
You get it if you are assaulted and its a normal additional attack with his thunderhammer. A hammer of wrath is on I10 and has no ap no str bonus and you only get it when charging.

 grendel083 wrote:

ncshooter426 wrote:
As a side note - can anyone rattle off another HQ character (or anyone for that matter) limited to only a single handed (swappable or not) weapon?

Ghazghkull Thraka, Mad Dok Grotsnik, Wazdakka Gutsmek.
All armed with Power Klaws, so can't claim the x2 melee weapon bonus.

Vulkan He'Stan uses a two-handed weapon, Captain Lysander can't claim it either...

I'm going to read up on those, I only recognize two off the list LOL. Of the Orkz - are the majority of them also sporting secondary abilities (psychers, fast movers, etc)? Needs to be an easy way to look up stats on people :|

Now the 2H weapons I get, and they (typically) get better baseline stats to offset their 2H nature. But same thing as before - both of their hands are consumed with something - hers are not. She cannot carry anything in her right hand - she's one armed for all intents and purposes And honestly, if her weapon's stats were at least a little more hits-like-a-brick and less std. issue flamer meets powersword style, it wouldn't be so bad.

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Ok, So I've looked up a few and thus far...

Vulcan - Mmm... flamers and relic blades. Kinda sounds familiar...except his spear actually does cool stuff. And the invulns? YIKES! Oh, and how nice that they gave him a 2hander AND a flamer template
Lysander - Are you kidding me with this? str10 attacks? Termi armor? LULZ...Again, all hands are used, except this time it's the thunder shield. An offhand which grants him a defensive bonus, which is nice compensation for not getting an additional attack

The running theme seems to be this - everyone can use something in their offhand (either to shoot, or as melee) and is somehow compensated for it. About all our girl gets is a std. issue flamer template and a relatively weak weapon. I guess getting to come back from the dead is a plus though

Eihnlazer wrote:
lysander and vulkan and cato sicarus


Well vulkan and cato have 2 handed weapons.........

Actually, Sicarius' weapon is one-handed and he can claim an additional attack from his Talassarian Tempest Blade combined with his other melee weapon, that is, his Plasma Pistol.

So, here's my biggest beef after reading the rules, this thread, and other examples of characters.

There are checks and balances in the setup to deal with the differeing scenarios. I get it, and it makes sense.

The +1 attack for having two applicable weapons, one in each hand, is for demonstrating either
1) skill with said weapons (finesse attackers)
2) sheer luck with said weapons (frenzy attackers)
3) slight offset for the lower dmg/range output if they're both pistols (gunslingers)

It's reasonable on paper, give a slightly higher chance to land a blow since you've sacrificed range or utility.

On the flip side, we've got the 1H+Def, 2H ranged and 2H melee folks. They too have a bonus applied to them, but not in the form of attacking

- 1H+Def folks (shield, book, whatever) get to add wargear that affects their defensive line.
- 2H ranged folks get punching power at distance/multiple shots in tradeoff for getting stomped in CC (cough tau cough)
-2H melee folks get harder hitting weapons to offset their (usually) lack of ranged offense.

Again, all makes sense... just horse trading stats depending on your loadout/role as a unit. But the problem is that, if we apply the above logic to good ol' glowing girl here, she gets the short end of the crozium.

Celestine cannot, ever, take a 2nd piece of equipment. No pistols, no shields... hell, she can't even take items from the Reliquary

Requisition officer: "Celestine...Celestine.... ah here go. Hmmm... umm... I'm afraid I will be unable to issue you gear ma'am"

Her: "What? Do you know who I am? I'm the damn living SAINT! THE WORD OF THE EMPEROR MADE FLESH! I --"

Requisition officer" "Yes Ma'am, and I'm sure you're very good at that...but you're not on my list of approved recipients"

Her: " *sigh*. Every single time..... come on man, can I just have a las pistol? anything?"

Requisition officer: ".... ehh..... no. If you could just...move aside....thaaaaanks..."


That in of itself isn't nescicarly bad - but it limits build. Now to that end, while being trapped (on paper) to "1 weapon" she gets no bonus to close combat - a role that she is designed for (A5). Alright - no biggie.... until you realize her toughness is still 3, and her invuln is 4+. No way to up the defenses, perhaps we'll get lucky and have a hard hitting weapon. Weelllll.... no. With all her angelic grace, she's still walking around with a weapon with stats equivalent of a power axe. Apparently she missed the "Forging for fun and prophet" seminar by Vulkan.

So she's lacks the extra swing, she lacks the defensive mods, and lacks the punch of similar "special" CC weapons. I know being able to resurrect is kindof a big deal - but she isn't the only unit capable of doing in in 40K. All in all, she isn't horrible as a fast moving swarm killer...but once you start comparing her to other CC focused HQ's, she is quickly overshadowed.

I know this isn't a theorycrafting section, but I just wanted to vent for a bit I'm not looking for an OP HQ, but given the limited number available to the AS, making her at least somewhat viable compared to her other human/superhuman brethren would be nice.

Most characters don't come back from the dead either

 grendel083 wrote:
Most characters don't come back from the dead either

Always sucks failing that roll too Or getting re-charged by that same MC you've tried to shake for the last 2 turns (stupid low rolls on hit and runs...).

Heh, it's all good.

A single extra attack won't make her "at least somewhat viable" if she isn't now.

Of course, she is viable what with the coming back from the dead, lots of AP3 high STR attacks...

rigeld2 wrote:
A single extra attack won't make her "at least somewhat viable" if she isn't now.

Of course, she is viable what with the coming back from the dead, lots of AP3 high STR attacks...

Oh I know, it would be a bit of extra frosting though. She's decent at killing bugs, I will give her that. The resurrection is still, like anything, subject to fail and you can only fire it off once. I've only lost her twice thus far though, and of that one of them failed the resurrect :(

High STR is relative. 5 isn't really that much when fighting anything other than squishies. Amazing that a floating chick imbued with holy power still swings like a guardsman


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I appreciate everyone's input in the thread - it was good stuff

Other characters don't have five attacks base and WS/I seven.

Celestine is an anti-meq beat stick with a 2+/4++ save. The only reason she's less viable than she used to be is that she can only come back once, and she's still T3 with no eternal warrior. She was damn undercosted at 115 points. At 135, I'd say she's about fair.

Then again, I haven't used her since Canonesses became a viable choice again.

You forget, St. Celestine was a Repentia that dawned the artificer armor and relic blade of a venerated Canoness in order to continue fighting. Just because the crappy current rules failed to cover this does not make it untrue. In Celestine, we have an Armored, Jump Pack wearing, Great Power Sword wielding, Flame spewing Sister seeking mortal combat to exorcist her self-perceived failures. She obviously went Ret and popped Wings.

SJ

'A venerated Canoness'..? St. Katherine is one of the Companions of Alicia Dominica... the closest thing to a primarch the Sisters have.

The reason the Ardent Blade is one-handed is that Katherine carried Dominica's Praesidium Protectiva in her other hand.