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2014/02/12 01:30:22
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
Which is of course nonsensical, since negative freedoms have no value if people cannot exercise them in practice because the systems of positive freedoms which enabled them to have been eradicated in the name of "small government".
And that is "of course" based on the asumption that said systems will be eradicated in the name of small government.
Small Government =/= No Government.
When I said "a true Libertarian believes the State should be as small as possible", I do not mean that Police, Law Courts and other insitutions that protect people's rights and mediate between competing rights should and would be abolished.
Are you arguing that personal liberty is impossible without a big and powerful State?
He has a point that if you factor in all the things the government does to keep us free and, well, alive you end up with a "big" government.
Sure personal liberty is great, but human sacrifice towards a greater goal, or rather sacrifice for the betterment of others is a part of who we are as humans. Sometimes we must give up some freedoms so that we may stay safe and avoid chaos, and sometimes we must campaign to protect our freedoms.
Freedom isn't binary, you have varying amounts of it person to person, country to country. Some people are more comfortable with large amounts, some with less.
Ironically, we are NOT spending enough on social issues such are Police, law courts, and other institutions (especially education), many of the symptoms of todays society such as lack of a proper living minimum wage, rising prices and lack of economic mobility come from us allowing corporations to much freedom.
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
2014/02/12 01:30:42
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
trexmeyer wrote: I thought this thread was about big, burly homosexual football players...
If you are not aroused by intense political debate I assure you are on the wrong board.
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
2014/02/12 01:59:03
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
Corpsesarefun wrote: That wasn't a strawman, I was genuinely curious as I don't know much about the specifics of libertarian policies.
I have heard some complete gak from libertarians/individuals who self identify as libertarian. One such individual is adamantly against all social programs and is completely ignorant of the economic concept of public goods. As such he firmly believes everything should be privatized and that capitalism can solve everything. I would hope that a rational libertarian would recognize that the government is necessary to some extent. I agree that the government interference is too great in several areas, but it is also necessary in some cases. Extremism in any direction on the political spectrum is usually flawed.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
2014/02/12 02:01:28
Subject: Re:Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
Isn't there anything more formal? I'd rather read a widely accepted book of policies/doctrine than some guys blog.
As someone else said, Libertarianism is non-existent in the UK so I'd be interested in learning more.
Read the works of Thomas Jefferson, Americas most powerful libertarian.
He was a crazy man, that's for sure, but no more crazy then the rest of the people who while they didn't share his views, stood up against an empire with him!
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
2014/02/12 02:15:03
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
trexmeyer wrote: I have heard some complete gak from libertarians/individuals who self identify as libertarian.
As discussed previously, identifying yourself as a libertarian does not make you a libertarian. For instance, if you're for small government and low taxes but you're against gay rights you're not libertarian, you're conservative.
One such individual is adamantly against all social programs
I'm not. IMO there should be a minimum level of welfare to ensure people don't starve.
As such he firmly believes everything should be privatized and that capitalism can solve everything.
He sounds like an idiot.
The concept of a privatised Police Force, in which the legal powers to arrest and prosecute and convict people lies with private Corporations TERRIFIES me. The Criminal Justice System needs to be held accountable, and the best way to do that is as a public insitution(s) accountable to Parliament and Local Authorities.
Essential services, such as the Emergency Services, Military, Criminal Justice system are obviously necessary.
I would hope that a rational libertarian would recognize that the government is necessary to some extent.
They do. Libertarians are not Anarchists.
I agree that the government interference is too great in several areas, but it is also necessary in some cases.
I agree.
Extremism in any direction on the political spectrum is usually flawed.
Isn't there anything more formal? I'd rather read a widely accepted book of policies/doctrine than some guys blog.
As someone else said, Libertarianism is non-existent in the UK so I'd be interested in learning more.
No, theres not. Libertarianism is more of a principle than a well defined political movement and party. IIRC there is a UK Libertarian Party but its tiny and by no means represents all libertarians.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 02:20:14
2014/02/12 02:30:26
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
Libertarianism IS a political movement and it is not a new one, see my post about Thomas Jefferson.
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
2014/02/12 02:30:52
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
Monster Rain wrote: If all your political movement has for literature is a bunch of half-asses blogs you need to rethink your life.
Unless it's about Reptilians. Then it's all true.
I think this answers your rather rude remark.
Alexzandvar wrote: Libertarianism IS a political movement and it is not a new one, see my post about Thomas Jefferson.
Do you really need to get personal? I'm not exactly a card carrying, Libertarian Party member, spokesman for all things Libertarian.
My affiliation with libertarianism only extends as far as agreeing with libertarian principles that people should be free to live their lives as they see fit with the minimum of social and economic interference from incompetent politicans and Governments who think they know best in all matters and should have the right to dictate their opinions to other people.
And you've clearly not bothered to actually look at the list of blogs. It includes MEPs (Daniel Hannan), think tanks (Adam Smith Institute and Institute of Economic Affairs ) and pressure groups (Taxpayers Alliance). Theres nothing half assed about those.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 02:46:12
2014/02/12 02:47:36
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
Monster Rain wrote: If all your political movement has for literature is a bunch of half-asses blogs you need to rethink your life.
Unless it's about Reptilians. Then it's all true.
They also have Ayn Rand.
Libertarianism falls apart because it's an ideal, and ideals almost never hold up to the real world. Plus, it attracts a lot of fringe elements.
In theory? Damn near everybody is pretty libertarian. I mean, personal freedom is great! In practice? Everybody is willing to give up freedoms for comfort.
2014/02/12 02:55:43
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
In fairness, Ayn Rand was the founder of Objectivism, not strictly speaking a Libertarian, although a lot of Libertarians have sadly embraced her as a kindred spirit. I say sadly, because she was an awful person and terrible philosopher. And I say those things speaking as a man named after one of her characters, before my parents finished growing up and stopped admiring Rand.
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Well I personally don't know anything about her, her works or her philosophy. I've never read her books, and from the little I've heard of her I have a negative impression of her.
Inb4 someone attacks me for "agreeing" with her and everything she stands for.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 03:04:42
2014/02/12 03:07:18
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
I don't see how disliking a controversial philosopher who said a lot of provocative things are part of her "Shtick" as it were calls ones manhood into question.
Ayn Rand was a nut case, but then again, history is just a tale of nut cases doing nutty things we would never do and changing the world.
What it comes down to is what nut cases we are willing to admit we liked.
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
2014/02/12 03:36:54
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well I personally don't know anything about her, her works or her philosophy. I've never read her books, and from the little I've heard of her I have a negative impression of her.
Inb4 someone attacks me for "agreeing" with her and everything she stands for.
I won't attack you for it, but not giving a feth about anything but yourself is objectivism in a nutshell. I have horribly violated their philosophy by explaining this much to you. Helping is not objectivist.
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Mercurial wrote:
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Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
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2014/02/12 03:52:30
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well I personally don't know anything about her, her works or her philosophy. I've never read her books, and from the little I've heard of her I have a negative impression of her.
Inb4 someone attacks me for "agreeing" with her and everything she stands for.
I won't attack you for it, but not giving a feth about anything but yourself is objectivism in a nutshell. I have horribly violated their philosophy by explaining this much to you. Helping is not objectivist.
And since when did libertarianism = not giving a feth about anyone but yourself?
Not wanting a Government to dictate your life and take a majority stake in your lifetime income does not mean you don't care about anybody else. It means you don't want the Government to do the caring on your behalf whether you like it or not.
A libertarian is still free to donate to charitable causes that he/she agrees with. They just don't want the Government to take their money by force and give it to "fake" charities that the Government agrees with.
Objectivism sounds abhorrent. Its a good thing I'm not Objectivist.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 03:59:15
2014/02/12 03:58:51
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well I personally don't know anything about her, her works or her philosophy. I've never read her books, and from the little I've heard of her I have a negative impression of her.
Inb4 someone attacks me for "agreeing" with her and everything she stands for.
I won't attack you for it, but not giving a feth about anything but yourself is objectivism in a nutshell. I have horribly violated their philosophy by explaining this much to you. Helping is not objectivist.
And since when did libertarianism = not giving a feth about anyone but yourself?
Not wanting a Government to dictate your life and take a majority stake in your lifetime income does not mean you don't care about anybody else. It means you don't want the Government to do the caring on your behalf whether you like it or not.
The reason government exists is because people are by nature kinda jerks. We hate to admit it, but it's interesting to note how you go through the day were you subtly favor yourself over others. The government is there to make sure we don't just kill each other when confronted as we did in the cave man days. Or hell, when you could duel people only 300 years ago
"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
And yes I agree Ayn Rand's objectivsm is not libertarianism but merely a radical version of it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 04:13:19
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
2014/02/12 04:04:49
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
Alexzandvar wrote: The reason government exists is because people are by nature kinda jerks. We hate to admit it, but it's interesting to note how you go through the day were you subtly favor yourself over others. The government is there to make sure we don't just kill each other when confronted as we did in the cave man days. Or hell, when you could duel people only 300 years ago
"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
I agree. You do realise that this is a Straw Man don't you? Or at best irrelevant... Because I never said "Lets abolish all Government". Libertarianism is not Anarchism.
And yes I agree Ayn Rand's objectivsm is not libertarianism but merely a radical version of it.
Like I said, I know almost nothing about her.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 04:10:48
2014/02/12 04:14:09
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
Alexzandvar wrote: The reason government exists is because people are by nature kinda jerks. We hate to admit it, but it's interesting to note how you go through the day were you subtly favor yourself over others. The government is there to make sure we don't just kill each other when confronted as we did in the cave man days. Or hell, when you could duel people only 300 years ago
"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
I agree. You do realise that this is a Straw Man don't you? Or at best irrelevant... Because I never said "Lets abolish all Government". Libertarianism is not Anarchism.
And yes I agree Ayn Rand's objectivsm is not libertarianism but merely a radical version of it.
Like I said, I know almost nothing about her.
I know, I was not trying to build a straw man, simply, point out that the government does need to step in to make sure everyone gives there fair share towards a better society.
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
2014/02/12 04:26:28
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
I know, I was not trying to build a straw man, simply, point out that the government does need to step in to make sure everyone gives there fair share towards a better society.
You've gone from "making sure we all don't kill each other" to "making sure everyone gives their fair share to a better society".
Thats quite a leap. And quite a sinister choice of words. I take it you think this Government should use force to make sure everyone gives their "fair share"?
Who defines what a fair share is? Who decides what that better society will look like? What happens when people disagree?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 04:29:47
2014/02/12 04:36:37
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
I know, I was not trying to build a straw man, simply, point out that the government does need to step in to make sure everyone gives there fair share towards a better society.
You've gone from "making sure we all don't kill each other" to "making sure everyone gives their fair share to a better society".
Thats quite a leap. And quite a sinister choice of words. I take it you think this Government should use force to make sure everyone gives their "fair share"?
Who defines what a fair share is? Who decides what that better society will look like? What happens when people disagree?
See my quote about taxes. We live in a partly socialist country/society, the entire system of taking taxes from every tier of the economic bracket with more coming from those who earn more and less coming from those who earn less and then the government invests that In adressing issues and helping people.
It shouldn't be shameful to admit. You get in trouble if you don't pay your taxes, we already make people pay, but yes you are correct we are constantly redefining what a fair share exactly.
Your a smart guy, don't put yourself on the level of those who sacrifice themselves on the altar about how much they hate socialism but love social security or their medicaid benefits. Just because a good things comes from out side your method of thinking doesn't mean its inherently evil.
Its why I don't insult you or suggest your dumb for being a libertarian, I recognize people are allowed to be politically diverse and it's what make the free world the free world. The entire system of innocent until proven guilty is libertarian thing, one of the founding principals of civilization is a libertarian ideal.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 04:37:48
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
2014/02/12 04:47:46
Subject: Potentially the first openly gay NFL player
