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Purposing an extra weapon per Stealth suit. Point costs added as such

Burst cannon +10 or +5 if single twinlink)
Fusion Blaster +15 or +10 if single twinlink)

Please analyse this as compared to all armies and not a vendetta towards your own personal army and would like some feed back on a couple things,

Is it worth the points compared to the other elite slots (crisis and 'tides)

Is it balanced? 120pts for 3x T3 Ld8 stealth shrouded Infitrating suits that can put out 24 s5 ap5 shots from 18"

Ideas and Feedback please

I agree whole-heartedly that stealth suits need a buff. It's 32 points for a T3 W1 3+ model, and stealth+shrouded is not worth that much. I have played them with my friends with no weapon upgrade limit (as in the stupid on fusion per three suits) and that they can upgrade to a plasma rifle for 5 points and they have worked out quite well while not being OP. I quite like the look of your idea.

I would like to see them given the option to take rail rifles or ion rifles. Say at the current 15 maybe 10 points per gun. I just don't feel that pathfinders are a good use of the special wepaons and I think stealth suits could use a bit of variety in weapon loadouts

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I agree whole-heartedly that stealth suits need a buff. It's 32 points for a T3 W1 3+ model, and stealth+shrouded is not worth that much. I have played them with my friends with no weapon upgrade limit (as in the stupid on fusion per three suits) and that they can upgrade to a plasma rifle for 5 points and they have worked out quite well while not being OP. I quite like the look of your idea.

I always wondered why that have a multitraker installed but not 2 weapon options unless you take an 'UI with a markerlight.

I would go farther than the OP. Their wargear options should be similar to crisis suits: 25pts base cost with no wargear by default, but each model is able to take 2 options from the ranged weapons and/or support systems list. Let the Shas'vre take items from the signature systems list (with restrictions against taking some systems like the Iridium Battlesuit). That would make them so much more useful and interesting, but without making them too overpowered. Those wargear options get very expensive, and they're still only T3 W1.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I would go farther than the OP. Their wargear options should be similar to crisis suits: 25pts base cost with no wargear by default, but each model is able to take 2 options from the ranged weapons and/or support systems list. Let the Shas'vre take items from the signature systems list (with restrictions against taking some systems like the Iridium Battlesuit). That would make them so much more useful and interesting, but without making them too overpowered. Those wargear options get very expensive, and they're still only T3 W1.

Burst cannons are 10pts each so if you wanted to go that route, i would have base costs down to 20pts.

 MechaBeast wrote:
Burst cannons are 10pts each so if you wanted to go that route, i would have base costs down to 20pts.

You're right, and that would probably be fine (about the same price as a crisis suit)

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I would go farther than the OP. Their wargear options should be similar to crisis suits: 25pts base cost with no wargear by default, but each model is able to take 2 options from the ranged weapons and/or support systems list. Let the Shas'vre take items from the signature systems list (with restrictions against taking some systems like the Iridium Battlesuit). That would make them so much more useful and interesting, but without making them too overpowered. Those wargear options get very expensive, and they're still only T3 W1.

I think that the weapon selection should remain as is or you have to keep squads down to 3.
36x S7 AP4 shots from an infiltration unit is a bit too much!


Actually I would be in favor of having a 3 model restriction as 72 shots @18" is a bit much as well

 MechaBeast wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I would go farther than the OP. Their wargear options should be similar to crisis suits: 25pts base cost with no wargear by default, but each model is able to take 2 options from the ranged weapons and/or support systems list. Let the Shas'vre take items from the signature systems list (with restrictions against taking some systems like the Iridium Battlesuit). That would make them so much more useful and interesting, but without making them too overpowered. Those wargear options get very expensive, and they're still only T3 W1.

I think that the weapon selection should remain as is or you have to keep squads down to 3.
36x S7 AP4 shots from an infiltration unit is a bit too much!


Actually I would be in favor of having a 3 model restriction as 72 shots @18" is a bit much as well

It's a T3 W1 model though, they are not exactly hard to kill. They have a 3+ save, but they would generally have that from the stealth+shrouded anyway. Agsinst AP4+ they are easier to kill than tac marines.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 MechaBeast wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I would go farther than the OP. Their wargear options should be similar to crisis suits: 25pts base cost with no wargear by default, but each model is able to take 2 options from the ranged weapons and/or support systems list. Let the Shas'vre take items from the signature systems list (with restrictions against taking some systems like the Iridium Battlesuit). That would make them so much more useful and interesting, but without making them too overpowered. Those wargear options get very expensive, and they're still only T3 W1.

I think that the weapon selection should remain as is or you have to keep squads down to 3.
36x S7 AP4 shots from an infiltration unit is a bit too much!


Actually I would be in favor of having a 3 model restriction as 72 shots @18" is a bit much as well

It's a T3 W1 model though, they are not exactly hard to kill. They have a 3+ save, but they would generally have that from the stealth+shrouded anyway. Agsinst AP4+ they are easier to kill than tac marines.

Would you want to face a first turn 72 shots if you ran massive infantry on the first turn? (that's an average of 30 wounds for those scoring at home) The only counter would be go first and even then you're shooting into a 2+ cover save. Heck, they could deploy even out of sight first.

 MechaBeast wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 MechaBeast wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I would go farther than the OP. Their wargear options should be similar to crisis suits: 25pts base cost with no wargear by default, but each model is able to take 2 options from the ranged weapons and/or support systems list. Let the Shas'vre take items from the signature systems list (with restrictions against taking some systems like the Iridium Battlesuit). That would make them so much more useful and interesting, but without making them too overpowered. Those wargear options get very expensive, and they're still only T3 W1.

I think that the weapon selection should remain as is or you have to keep squads down to 3.
36x S7 AP4 shots from an infiltration unit is a bit too much!


Actually I would be in favor of having a 3 model restriction as 72 shots @18" is a bit much as well

It's a T3 W1 model though, they are not exactly hard to kill. They have a 3+ save, but they would generally have that from the stealth+shrouded anyway. Agsinst AP4+ they are easier to kill than tac marines.

Would you want to face a first turn 72 shots if you ran massive infantry on the first turn? (that's an average of 30 wounds for those scoring at home) The only counter would be go first and even then you're shooting into a 2+ cover save. Heck, they could deploy even out of sight first.

you can get that now, and they still suck. Even with people who don't use riptides because they are bloated piece of un-fluffy cheese you never see them used. It costs 180 points for that, the cost of s riptide ot a well kitted out crisis team. you can get 20 fire warriors for that price and they can get either 30" rapid fire or assault2 pinning. The fire warriors have less total shots, but are more surviable, have photon grenades, and have pinning. Fpr pete's sake, stealth suits cost 30 points a piece. That's the cost of some people's DTs.

Burst cannons are good in volume because they are usually cost effective and 18" range makes it so you have to play more aggressively to get some use out of it. Having it on an infiltration unit removes the draw back of the 18" range but it does not reduce the issue of cost effectiveness directly.

As for the Stealth suit itself, it's really hard to say what it's price should be. It's mobile, infiltrates, and can bury itself in thanks to it's short range weaponry and stealth/shrouded boosts.

Most people think that the answer is to make them more comparable to standard suits. I don't think that's the answer. I think making them cheaper, removing shrouded and leaving stealth, giving them moves through cover so they can be aggressively moved forward without suffering for their small squad size and maybe even leaving them with burst cannons would be fine.

In the end, you'd have a 22-25 ppm T3 3+ unit that freely moves through cover without dangerous terrain checks, which their suits are designed for, and still has the capability to act as a harassing unit. Also I'd make them FA or troops if you take a SC. It's like the sniper drones in the HS section. You're not good against aircraft or tanks? Then what are you doing in heavy. With Stealth suits "You're not good against MC or heavy infantry? Slide on down to the next slot."

 MechaBeast wrote:
Would you want to face a first turn 72 shots if you ran massive infantry on the first turn? (that's an average of 30 wounds for those scoring at home) The only counter would be go first and even then you're shooting into a 2+ cover save. Heck, they could deploy even out of sight first.

I'll lose, on average, about 8 marines (112pts), but he will have to invest 360pts and expose his squishy units. For comparison, he can buy two Riptides with Ion Accelerators for just 10 more points, and hit those marines with a couple S8 AP2 pieplates (and have two incredibly durable monstrous creatures instead of nine squishies). There's a lot of stuff in the Tau codex that can throw unbelievable amounts of firepower downrange, and the current stealthsuits are a sad bunch by comparison, who spend most of the game huddling in terrain trying to get 2+ cover saves.

For what it's worth, I do think they should be limited to a squad size of 3.

What 1 unit can currently infiltrate 18" away and hit you with 72 s5 ap5 shots turn 1?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Burst cannons are good in volume because they are usually cost effective and 18" range makes it so you have to play more aggressively to get some use out of it. Having it on an infiltration unit removes the draw back of the 18" range but it does not reduce the issue of cost effectiveness directly.

As for the Stealth suit itself, it's really hard to say what it's price should be. It's mobile, infiltrates, and can bury itself in thanks to it's short range weaponry and stealth/shrouded boosts.

Most people think that the answer is to make them more comparable to standard suits. I don't think that's the answer. I think making them cheaper, removing shrouded and leaving stealth, giving them moves through cover so they can be aggressively moved forward without suffering for their small squad size and maybe even leaving them with burst cannons would be fine.

In the end, you'd have a 22-25 ppm T3 3+ unit that freely moves through cover without dangerous terrain checks, which their suits are designed for, and still has the capability to act as a harassing unit. Also I'd make them FA or troops if you take a SC. It's like the sniper drones in the HS section. You're not good against aircraft or tanks? Then what are you doing in heavy. With Stealth suits "You're not good against MC or heavy infantry? Slide on down to the next slot."

Actually, I'd take them more often if they would just be moved to fast attack. With their stats and damage, they should fight with Piranha and Pathfinders for slots, not crisis suits and riptides

 MechaBeast wrote:
What 1 unit can currently infiltrate 18" away and hit you with 72 s5 ap5 shots turn 1?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Burst cannons are good in volume because they are usually cost effective and 18" range makes it so you have to play more aggressively to get some use out of it. Having it on an infiltration unit removes the draw back of the 18" range but it does not reduce the issue of cost effectiveness directly.

As for the Stealth suit itself, it's really hard to say what it's price should be. It's mobile, infiltrates, and can bury itself in thanks to it's short range weaponry and stealth/shrouded boosts.

Most people think that the answer is to make them more comparable to standard suits. I don't think that's the answer. I think making them cheaper, removing shrouded and leaving stealth, giving them moves through cover so they can be aggressively moved forward without suffering for their small squad size and maybe even leaving them with burst cannons would be fine.

In the end, you'd have a 22-25 ppm T3 3+ unit that freely moves through cover without dangerous terrain checks, which their suits are designed for, and still has the capability to act as a harassing unit. Also I'd make them FA or troops if you take a SC. It's like the sniper drones in the HS section. You're not good against aircraft or tanks? Then what are you doing in heavy. With Stealth suits "You're not good against MC or heavy infantry? Slide on down to the next slot."

Actually, I'd take them more often if they would just be moved to fast attack. With their stats and damage, they should fight with Piranha and Pathfinders for slots, not crisis suits and riptides

A move to fat attack would be great. A smile price decrease to 25ppm instead of 30 would also be a leap for tau-kind .

I think lowering the price to 25ppm and making them troops. I mean even shadow sun making them troops would make them 10x more usable

I would prefer to see them get an extra wound than a change in price....

Honestly I think the way to make them competitive is not necessarily to change any wargear options. They just become too close to crisis suits then.

As paranoidhawklet said, I'd make them troop choices. That way they are not competing with Riptides and Crisis Suits for Elite slots and they can use their manoeuvrability and deployment options to cap objectives. This way they look like a far more attractive option to pick from.