Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 StarTrotter wrote:
I'd argue with you that the Emperor was somewhat stupid about it though. Hey second mightiest psyker in the entire world. Don't use your powers, the things you've been raised sense youth to do NO NOT AT ALL DON'T DO IT! Oh all the while using it yourself.

Empy was a pretty big dick, but so far BL hasn't covered those parts.

He warned Magnus so severely, yet rebuked Lorgar. Did he forget that Lorgar was raised on a heretical planet?


So far the only time the Empy appears in BL is when he helps Horus on Gorro. And Horus is reduced to a babbling 12 y o in his father's presence.

Russ and Mortarion aside, Magnus seemed to get along quite well with his brothers. In every HH book I've read (up to mid Angel Exterminatus), he's giving counsels or listening to his brothers. His hubris is noticeable, but still he never tries to humiliate his siblings - he wants to give them honest directions. He seems to be the 'old, experienced brother', always with a forethought.

Under this light, I feel what happened to him to be even more tragic; the Librarius program was to help the cause of the Imperium, and Prospero's education/living was something even the Tau would envy.

I feel a bit for Perturabo as well; always seem as the second option, as the one who came after his brothers to do menial work. Still, he could do different instead of waiting for his father's approval.

Kurze was mad and needed more steering than what the Emperor could spend with him. I believe Magnus would be quite the help; alas, they had very little interaction (AFAIK).

"Fulgrim" was one of the most shocking stuff I've read. I'd never let anyone 'innocent' near that book... The man was mind-fethed forever. He didn't even had a serious choice in the matter.

Alpharius and Omegon were bastards already (Legion book). I was revolted by their actions in the book. Deliverance Lost painted an even worse case. I don't pity them.

Horus could have followed a different path, but his hubris and pride made his choice for him. I don't think he could have escaped the fate that has befallen him.

Lorgar, as much as the others tried to steer him out the 'god-emperor' path, couldn't listen. With vipers like Kor Phaeron and Erebus, he wouldn't remain in the Imperium's grip for long anyway. Erebus is the most sniveling bastard I've read about, regarding 40k.

Angron and Mortarion were lost causes; they'd betray Emps sooner or later.

I don't think any of them really deserve any sympathy. I know that some of them grew up in really troubled planets and it had an result on the upbringing but to turn on your brothers (who some had strong brotherly ties to), the Empire you helped build, the Emperor who built you, and your legion that idolized you. There is no coming back. Some are more damning than others. Fulgrim and Horus come to mind.

 Inkubas wrote:
to turn on your brothers (who some had strong brotherly ties to), the Empire you helped build, the Emperor who built you, and your legion that idolized you.

Not all of them WANTED to lead a legion. Not all of them wanted a place in the Imperium. Not all of the wanted to be worshipped.

To some (Angron springs to mind) the Emperor's "kindness" was tantamount to slavery. Just because the Emperor created them didn't mean he owned them.

Just because someone is evil doesn't mean we can't feel pity or sorrow for them, or to share a connection through a common, identifiable set of feelings. There are tons of us with parent issues who can completely relate to being unable to live up to unrealistic expectations; of doing something we legitimately believed would please our parents/loved ones only to be crushed by their disappointment; of being faced with a loved one that we would always be compared (unfavorably) to--a friend or relative that we loved but who we would never be able to measure up to.

Granted, we didn't (most of us didn't, anyway) murder our brothers/friends/parents and burn their house down, but it's pretty easy to feel an understanding for the circumstances that led to the Primarchs to give in to be corrupted by these same feelings.

 Inkubas wrote:
I don't think any of them really deserve any sympathy. I know that some of them grew up in really troubled planets and it had an result on the upbringing but to turn on your brothers (who some had strong brotherly ties to), the Empire you helped build, the Emperor who built you, and your legion that idolized you. There is no coming back.

The Emperor did little to earn the loyalty of some of his sons - in Angron's case he did nothing. He took it as read that they would serve his vision, and when they did not he enforced his will by brutal demonstrations of power that left no room for debate, such as Monarchia.

If there is no coming back from Istvan V then why do the Wolves get a pass on Prospero? Brotherly loyalty was not an absolute even during the Great Crusade. The Wolves tried to wipe out the Thousand Sons at a time when the Sons still considered themselves loyal. That wasn't even the first time Russ had led his legion into battle against another - even ignoring what might have happened to the missing legions Russ fought the World Eaters before the Heresy, and he did so without even the weak excuse of having been ordered to do so by the Emperor. Isstvan V was brutal certainly, but it was not unprecedented.

Some are more damning than others. Fulgrim and Horus come to mind.

In this I half agree. Fulgrim seems the most unforgiveable - driven by egotism and hubris and with only the most passing regrets. Horus on the other hand did not fall by his own choice, but was actively brought down, poisoned in mind and body by the concerted effort of a conspiracy. Any of the primarchs might have fallen in the same circumstances.

I'd vote Magnus or Perturabo. Magnus for obvious reasons, trying to warn the Emperor and instead getting the Space Mutts sicced on him for using sorcery. Perturabo because the IWs were always given the most menial, backbreaking assignments and got zero credit for any of it, just constantly being crapped on, so it's no wonder they decided to side with Horus.

I feel bad for those loyal to a corpse who kills millions so his bones don't disappear. The emperor made 2 primarchs disappear horus never did that he asked them to join him. Who is the real evil one here.

OgreChubbs wrote:
I feel bad for those loyal to a corpse who kills millions so his bones don't disappear. The emperor made 2 primarchs disappear horus never did that he asked them to join him. Who is the real evil one here.

That would be the side selling their souls to the hellish "gods" of the warp who thrives on human misery and embody the worst in us. The Emperor sacrifices people for an end (that is, keeping humanity free from Chaos and ultimately alive) whereas the "gods" sacrifice people because they feel like it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
I feel bad for those loyal to a corpse who kills millions so his bones don't disappear. The emperor made 2 primarchs disappear horus never did that he asked them to join him. Who is the real evil one here.

That would be the side selling their souls to the hellish "gods" of the warp who thrives on human misery and embody the worst in us. The Emperor sacrifices people for an end (that is, keeping humanity free from Chaos and ultimately alive) whereas the "gods" sacrifice people because they feel like it.

How do you know the chaos gods do not have an end? The set up the whole primarch kidnap where to put them how to get logar to find them scheme.

People want to feel sorry for Horus, except for one thing; While he was conspired against and even fell to the Anathema on Davin's Moon, he ultimately fell to Chaos because of a choice.

The choice was, believe in Erebus' vision (which was true, however Erebus never said HOW his vision was to become true, which was in fact with the Fall of Horus and the Emperor so Imperial Truth would vanish) or believe in Magnus, who really did show him the Truth.

Unfortunately, like so many arguments go these days, Erebus spoke first and painted an image identical to what Magnus was prepared to warn him of, so when Horus saw the two visions, he could only think "WELL ONE OF YOU IS LYING, AND EREBUS HAS BEEN HERE WAY LONGER!" Which was stupid because his reason for NOT trusting Magnus was "Our father said you couldn't do this, and now here you are doing this....wtf?" too which right afterwards, Horus goes "Feth my Father!"

So...get this.

Erebus says, "Careful! Someones lying to you!"
Then Magnus says, "Yeah! Someone IS lying to you! It's Erebus!!"
So Horus goes, "But Erebus is my bro! And you're doing what Dad told you not to do! YOUR CHAOS!!"
Then Horus goes onto say, "But feth Dad, I can do it better anyways."

SPIT-TAKE? You just chastized Magnus for going against Daddy, but then you decide you're going to kill Daddy anyways?

Failure goes to Horus for being a constipated child. lol

They've all got their fair share, but I'd probably go for Fulgrim. Before they retconned him to just be point blank evil, that is. In that case, I'd say Magnus. Especially after the nonsense of the Council of Nikaea.

The funny thing is that it ultimately comes down to daddy issues. The Emperor was a terrible father to them all, but the Traitors are the ones he gave actual reason to resent him. The only two who he didn't were Horus and Curze - and it was The Emperor's mistake to recognise Curze's obvious mental instability and handle it by basically saying "Stop being crazy, I'm The Emperor, now here's a Legion, go off and Crusade". Horus was corrupted by Chaos, but this was a result of Erebus who was a result of Lorgar, and Lorgar's resentment was entirely The Emperor's fault.

Think of it this way, because the Primarchs all have the mentality of needy teenagers. You spend all your savings and work your hands raw to build a gift for your father. It's an excellent gift, the greatest thing you have ever crafted. When your father comes home and sees it, his reaction is to shout at you before calling for your older brother and his friends to hack it apart with a chainsaw (while laughing at you the whole time). After this is done, your father forces you to kneel before your gloating brother and embarrass yourself in front of his friends. Your father makes it clear to you that you are inferior to your brother and that your hard work is not appreciated. That's what The Emperor did to Lorgar. That is why the Heresy began.

EDIT: Here's a question. Why didn't The Emperor make more Primarchs? He clearly had the technology, and he clearly had great plans for them. When he lost them all (a bit of fluff that is very silly but nevertheless must be accepted because it's so crucial), why didn't he just make replacements?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Wut, really? What story is that in? Aurelian?

Yes it's in Aurelian.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
I feel bad for those loyal to a corpse who kills millions so his bones don't disappear. The emperor made 2 primarchs disappear horus never did that he asked them to join him. Who is the real evil one here.

That would be the side selling their souls to the hellish "gods" of the warp who thrives on human misery and embody the worst in us. The Emperor sacrifices people for an end (that is, keeping humanity free from Chaos and ultimately alive) whereas the "gods" sacrifice people because they feel like it.

How do you know the chaos gods do not have an end? The set up the whole primarch kidnap where to put them how to get logar to find them scheme.

Because we're not part of the story. Seriously, what part of the fluff paints Chaos as a good thing for the survival of humanity without simultaneously being very wrong?

Let's not forget that the majority of traitor Primarchs weren't fighting for Chaos, they were fighting with Chaos. Most of them had their own agendas. Even corrupted Horus believed that the Emperor was bad and he needed to save humanity from him.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
I feel bad for those loyal to a corpse who kills millions so his bones don't disappear. The emperor made 2 primarchs disappear horus never did that he asked them to join him. Who is the real evil one here.

That would be the side selling their souls to the hellish "gods" of the warp who thrives on human misery and embody the worst in us. The Emperor sacrifices people for an end (that is, keeping humanity free from Chaos and ultimately alive) whereas the "gods" sacrifice people because they feel like it.

How do you know the chaos gods do not have an end? The set up the whole primarch kidnap where to put them how to get logar to find them scheme.

Because we're not part of the story. Seriously, what part of the fluff paints Chaos as a good thing for the survival of humanity without simultaneously being very wrong?

Stories are always much more interesting if you try to see the shades of grey. Chaos is much like the Imperium in many respects but foremostly in 'join us or die.' Joining Chaos in a symbiotic way is more about borrowing power to complete a goal or even avoiding an inevitable doom for the whole civilization ala the Eldar than being 'mwhahaha eeeevil.' One of my favorite interpretations of the Emp is that he himself is trying to become a god in the warp, hence the whole soul feeding thing and rise of Emp worship. Remember that the warp isn't just an evil alternate dimension. Its the dimension of emotions. Its just the strongest most prevalent emotions that run the warp. The warp is full of 'hellish' things because it reflects the hellish nature of the people in the galaxy.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
(...)
Because we're not part of the story. Seriously, what part of the fluff paints Chaos as a good thing for the survival of humanity without simultaneously being very wrong?

Those written from the point of view of the Chaos followers, before 2012. The novel 'Pawns of Chaos' is a good example, but at the end of the day all Chaos followers thought they were doing the 'right' thing. Many of them were insane though, so their definition of 'right' was not really 'right'.

An example: if you think about it, Lorgar just refused to follow an entity he believed was a good, because he thought the Emperor was a liar and a tyrant too. So he embarked in a search of the ultimate truth about the meaning of life, not caring about glory, power or wealth. Once the truth was revealed, he fully committed himself to join humanity together with their true gods, aiming to create an alliance that will dominate the galaxy.

Also, Chaos was not in war with humanity until the Great Crusade and the Emperor´s attempt at destroying all forms of religion. Gods do nothing unless seriously provoked.

There has been a change in the background, making Marines more heroic, the Emperor a good guy and the Imperium a harsh, but inevitable need. At the same time, Chaos has been moved from Lovecraft/Moorcock/classic mythology to a bunch of incredible dumb villains-of-the-week idiots. I liked it when there were shades of grey in every faction, and see this change as a really bad move.

So now we have full heroic, shiny, white-knighty loyalist Primarchs, and we are supposed to feel sympathy for the fallen ones because they were misleaded or mistreated by their dad?.

None of thede devious traitors deserves a drop of pity or such things, they more or less set about the downfall of mankind! Damned traitors one and all

Trondheim wrote:None of thede devious traitors deserves a drop of pity or such things, they more or less set about the downfall of mankind! Damned traitors one and all

I would probably go back and read what AlmightWalrus just posted above you. This pretty much explains everything you need to know about the relationship between Chaos, Chaos Space Marine and the Imperium.

And if you were to think about it for more than a second, which is really bad because I know I'm in this bracket, would you really NOT side with the Chaos Marines who were in service to observable Gods and not the demi-God, Emperor-thing?

I know we look at them like "UGH! BAD BAD BAD," but some perspective and context.

Here is a really goofy example, but worth mentioning: Nurgle. Ok, so he makes everything rot and die....but he makes his followers happy about this and they feel no pain? Pretty sweet deal from an eternal God, wouldn't you think? I mean yeah, it's yucky, you smell and everything buzzes all the time... but you're happy, you feel none of the pain (and infact rejoice in the pestulance and cycle of death and rebirth), and you are in service to a God that rewards you for your service.

Best quote ever that should paint the picture of Chaos followers is the quote takin from the CSM dex about Chaos Lords: "I killed millions in service of the Emperor and he gave me nothing but his damning silence. Now his sons yelp for every life I take, while the Gods promise me the galaxy."

PRETTY SWEET DEAL, IF YOU ASK ME.

This can also be rolled up with the Daemon Worlds that have cities and civilizations living on them.

Want a better example of how a bad thing could be not-such-a-bad-thing? Look at Darkseid from Superman. In the end of one of the Superman cartoons, he gets into a final squall with Darkseid. Superman beats the ever loving crap out of Darkseid and throws him from his palace and amongst the peasants and says "See? You're free now! Your god is dead!" and what do the followers turn around and do? They pick the monster up (which is impossible because he ways thousands of pounds if not tons) and start codling him like a puppy with a broken foot. "Oh, master! Are you ok, Master? We'll take care of you, oh Lord."

To which Darkseid says the one thing that would piss any hero off and make them wanna take the cape off: "I told you Cal'el. I am many things, but here, I am God."

PWNT*

da001 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
(...)
Because we're not part of the story. Seriously, what part of the fluff paints Chaos as a good thing for the survival of humanity without simultaneously being very wrong?

Those written from the point of view of the Chaos followers, before 2012. The novel 'Pawns of Chaos' is a good example, but at the end of the day all Chaos followers thought they were doing the 'right' thing. Many of them were insane though, so their definition of 'right' was not really 'right'.

An example: if you think about it, Lorgar just refused to follow an entity he believed was a good, because he thought the Emperor was a liar and a tyrant too. So he embarked in a search of the ultimate truth about the meaning of life, not caring about glory, power or wealth. Once the truth was revealed, he fully committed himself to join humanity together with their true gods, aiming to create an alliance that will dominate the galaxy.

Also, Chaos was not in war with humanity until the Great Crusade and the Emperor´s attempt at destroying all forms of religion. Gods do nothing unless seriously provoked.

There has been a change in the background, making Marines more heroic, the Emperor a good guy and the Imperium a harsh, but inevitable need. At the same time, Chaos has been moved from Lovecraft/Moorcock/classic mythology to a bunch of incredible dumb villains-of-the-week idiots. I liked it when there were shades of grey in every faction, and see this change as a really bad move.

So now we have full heroic, shiny, white-knighty loyalist Primarchs, and we are supposed to feel sympathy for the fallen ones because they were misleaded or mistreated by their dad?.

When given the choice of joining a God of Torture-Rape and unfullfiled excessive longing I think I'll pass, thankyouverymuch. The Emperor was at least trying to make the Galaxy a better place for humanity, the Chaos Gods have no care for those who are "too weak" to carve their own little niche out.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
When given the choice of joining a God of Torture-Rape and unfullfiled excessive longing I think I'll pass, thankyouverymuch. The Emperor was at least trying to make the Galaxy a better place for humanity, the Chaos Gods have no care for those who are "too weak" to carve their own little niche out.

Indeed, at the end of the day no matter how you rationalize how "great" the boons of chaos may be, at the very end of the day you are deluding yourself into believing that service for the Dark Gods is anything but evil and self-destructive. Not only are the Chaos Gods fickle and are just as likely to give you tentacles for eyes as they will give you enhanced strength, but your life ironically becomes increasingly one-dimensional as you fall deeper and deeper into devoting yourself towards their ends (willingly or not). For every Daemon Prince there are millions that die unremembered and in horrible agony, their souls being picked apart by daemons, for you to think that you're any different is the trap that has captured fools throughout the ages.

The Imperium, decrepit as it is, has kept mankind alive for 10 millennia, and has legitimately pleasant worlds like those in Ultramar or Agri-worlds. What daemon worlds can one name where normal human beings could actually live in relative peace without fear of their souls being devoured in the Eye of Terror? I can't think of any that can come near to the worlds I have mentioned, and even in the hellish death worlds of the Imperium you don't have to suffer fates like those in the Realm of Chaos.

 Grimskul wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
When given the choice of joining a God of Torture-Rape and unfullfiled excessive longing I think I'll pass, thankyouverymuch. The Emperor was at least trying to make the Galaxy a better place for humanity, the Chaos Gods have no care for those who are "too weak" to carve their own little niche out.

Indeed, at the end of the day no matter how you rationalize how "great" the boons of chaos may be, at the very end of the day you are deluding yourself into believing that service for the Dark Gods is anything but evil and self-destructive. Not only are the Chaos Gods fickle and are just as likely to give you tentacles for eyes as they will give you enhanced strength, but your life ironically becomes increasingly one-dimensional as you fall deeper and deeper into devoting yourself towards their ends (willingly or not). For every Daemon Prince there are millions that die unremembered and in horrible agony, their souls being picked apart by daemons, for you to think that you're any different is the trap that has captured fools throughout the ages.

The Imperium, decrepit as it is, has kept mankind alive for 10 millennia, and has legitimately pleasant worlds like those in Ultramar or Agri-worlds. What daemon worlds can one name where normal human beings could actually live in relative peace without fear of their souls being devoured in the Eye of Terror? I can't think of any that can come near to the worlds I have mentioned, and even in the hellish death worlds of the Imperium you don't have to suffer fates like those in the Realm of Chaos.

That´s a matter of interpretation.

Many worlds 'liberated' by the Emperor during the Crusade were doing just fine before being forced to abide by the rule of a bloodthirsty tyrant. Chaos was around during the Dark Age of Technology and during all stages of human history, and it was only when a non-human entity used humanity as a weapon against them that things turned really bad for everyone.

Also, the Imperium is described as 'the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable'. Most of their worlds are described as Hell for most of its inhabitants. Compare it with the few non-imperial human worlds we know, and you will see a big difference. Even in some of the few Daemon Worlds described you will find better places to be.

Coming to think of it, Chaos worlds are mostly medieval-fantasy worlds. Read 'Daemon World', by Ben Counter, for example. Or the worlds described in Hammer of Daemons. They look like something taken from Moorcock, Howard or George R R Martin. And they sure look exactly as the world of WFB, which includes a gate to the Eye of Terror. Sure, there is a lot of suffering, but there is also hope, dreams and a lot of things you will not find in the ruthless tyranny of the depths of a Hive World. The only exception is when a Chaos Space Marine, or a Primarch, is in charge. But this is supposed to be really rare.

And Slaanesh is just the god of obssession. Aphrodite, Venus, or Freya are the obvious reference here, just like Mars, Ares, or Tyr are Khorne equivalents. Sure the gods are really nasty when at war, but they have been around since forever and it hasn´t been that bad, at least not compared with the hell of a life the average imperial citizen endures. This is mostly because the gods completely ignore humanity most of the time.

Also... what do we know about the true motivations of the Emperor? He turned the galaxy into a nightmarish hellhole for 10000 years, and justifying that by saying that he was trying to do the best for humanity sounds odd. What if he is a god? What if he were merely a powerful psyker trying to do what the Silent King did to the C´tan? What if he were a tool used by other force?

Another vote for Magnus from me.

 da001 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
When given the choice of joining a God of Torture-Rape and unfullfiled excessive longing I think I'll pass, thankyouverymuch. The Emperor was at least trying to make the Galaxy a better place for humanity, the Chaos Gods have no care for those who are "too weak" to carve their own little niche out.

Indeed, at the end of the day no matter how you rationalize how "great" the boons of chaos may be, at the very end of the day you are deluding yourself into believing that service for the Dark Gods is anything but evil and self-destructive. Not only are the Chaos Gods fickle and are just as likely to give you tentacles for eyes as they will give you enhanced strength, but your life ironically becomes increasingly one-dimensional as you fall deeper and deeper into devoting yourself towards their ends (willingly or not). For every Daemon Prince there are millions that die unremembered and in horrible agony, their souls being picked apart by daemons, for you to think that you're any different is the trap that has captured fools throughout the ages.

The Imperium, decrepit as it is, has kept mankind alive for 10 millennia, and has legitimately pleasant worlds like those in Ultramar or Agri-worlds. What daemon worlds can one name where normal human beings could actually live in relative peace without fear of their souls being devoured in the Eye of Terror? I can't think of any that can come near to the worlds I have mentioned, and even in the hellish death worlds of the Imperium you don't have to suffer fates like those in the Realm of Chaos.

That´s a matter of interpretation.

Many worlds 'liberated' by the Emperor during the Crusade were doing just fine before being forced to abide by the rule of a bloodthirsty tyrant. Chaos was around during the Dark Age of Technology and during all stages of human history, and it was only when a non-human entity used humanity as a weapon against them that things turned really bad for everyone.

Also, the Imperium is described as 'the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable'. Most of their worlds are described as Hell for most of its inhabitants. Compare it with the few non-imperial human worlds we know, and you will see a big difference. Even in some of the few Daemon Worlds described you will find better places to be.

Coming to think of it, Chaos worlds are mostly medieval-fantasy worlds. Read 'Daemon World', by Ben Counter, for example. Or the worlds described in Hammer of Daemons. They look like something taken from Moorcock, Howard or George R R Martin. And they sure look exactly as the world of WFB, which includes a gate to the Eye of Terror. Sure, there is a lot of suffering, but there is also hope, dreams and a lot of things you will not find in the ruthless tyranny of the depths of a Hive World. The only exception is when a Chaos Space Marine, or a Primarch, is in charge. But this is supposed to be really rare.

And Slaanesh is just the god of obssession. Aphrodite, Venus, or Freya are the obvious reference here, just like Mars, Ares, or Tyr are Khorne equivalents. Sure the gods are really nasty when at war, but they have been around since forever and it hasn´t been that bad, at least not compared with the hell of a life the average imperial citizen endures. This is mostly because the gods completely ignore humanity most of the time.

Also... what do we know about the true motivations of the Emperor? He turned the galaxy into a nightmarish hellhole for 10000 years, and justifying that by saying that he was trying to do the best for humanity sounds odd. What if he is a god? What if he were merely a powerful psyker trying to do what the Silent King did to the C´tan? What if he were a tool used by other force?

What if the Chaos Gods are in fact Killer Rabbits from another dimension that needs humanity to eat every other existing universe?

If you think that's a silly proposition, it's because it is. Likewise, we've got 25 years of fluff saying that the Emperor was trying to make the Galaxy a better place for humanity and that the Chaos Gods care little for humanity at large. Ignoring that just because you feel like it is perfectly fine, but it's not the foundation of a good argument.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
When given the choice of joining a God of Torture-Rape and unfullfiled excessive longing I think I'll pass, thankyouverymuch. The Emperor was at least trying to make the Galaxy a better place for humanity, the Chaos Gods have no care for those who are "too weak" to carve their own little niche out.

Indeed, at the end of the day no matter how you rationalize how "great" the boons of chaos may be, at the very end of the day you are deluding yourself into believing that service for the Dark Gods is anything but evil and self-destructive. Not only are the Chaos Gods fickle and are just as likely to give you tentacles for eyes as they will give you enhanced strength, but your life ironically becomes increasingly one-dimensional as you fall deeper and deeper into devoting yourself towards their ends (willingly or not). For every Daemon Prince there are millions that die unremembered and in horrible agony, their souls being picked apart by daemons, for you to think that you're any different is the trap that has captured fools throughout the ages.

The Imperium, decrepit as it is, has kept mankind alive for 10 millennia, and has legitimately pleasant worlds like those in Ultramar or Agri-worlds. What daemon worlds can one name where normal human beings could actually live in relative peace without fear of their souls being devoured in the Eye of Terror? I can't think of any that can come near to the worlds I have mentioned, and even in the hellish death worlds of the Imperium you don't have to suffer fates like those in the Realm of Chaos.

That´s a matter of interpretation.

Many worlds 'liberated' by the Emperor during the Crusade were doing just fine before being forced to abide by the rule of a bloodthirsty tyrant. Chaos was around during the Dark Age of Technology and during all stages of human history, and it was only when a non-human entity used humanity as a weapon against them that things turned really bad for everyone.

Also, the Imperium is described as 'the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable'. Most of their worlds are described as Hell for most of its inhabitants. Compare it with the few non-imperial human worlds we know, and you will see a big difference. Even in some of the few Daemon Worlds described you will find better places to be.

Coming to think of it, Chaos worlds are mostly medieval-fantasy worlds. Read 'Daemon World', by Ben Counter, for example. Or the worlds described in Hammer of Daemons. They look like something taken from Moorcock, Howard or George R R Martin. And they sure look exactly as the world of WFB, which includes a gate to the Eye of Terror. Sure, there is a lot of suffering, but there is also hope, dreams and a lot of things you will not find in the ruthless tyranny of the depths of a Hive World. The only exception is when a Chaos Space Marine, or a Primarch, is in charge. But this is supposed to be really rare.

And Slaanesh is just the god of obssession. Aphrodite, Venus, or Freya are the obvious reference here, just like Mars, Ares, or Tyr are Khorne equivalents. Sure the gods are really nasty when at war, but they have been around since forever and it hasn´t been that bad, at least not compared with the hell of a life the average imperial citizen endures. This is mostly because the gods completely ignore humanity most of the time.

Also... what do we know about the true motivations of the Emperor? He turned the galaxy into a nightmarish hellhole for 10000 years, and justifying that by saying that he was trying to do the best for humanity sounds odd. What if he is a god? What if he were merely a powerful psyker trying to do what the Silent King did to the C´tan? What if he were a tool used by other force?

What if the Chaos Gods are in fact Killer Rabbits from another dimension that needs humanity to eat every other existing universe?

If you think that's a silly proposition, it's because it is. Likewise, we've got 25 years of fluff saying that the Emperor was trying to make the Galaxy a better place for humanity and that the Chaos Gods care little for humanity at large. Ignoring that just because you feel like it is perfectly fine, but it's not the foundation of a good argument.

The Emperor was a terrible man that crushed many under his foot with little regard and was absolutely idiotic despite his "intellect"
The Chaos Gods care little for humans besides being fed by them but largely treat humanity at best like playthings. Under them crazy things happen and your planet might develop only to be destroyed or not with an extremely random reasoning behind it that is unfatomable.

Both options are terrible. Despite my love for chaos, the Emperor is the only choice. If we are going to suffer at least let us suffer under the heel of a "human" whom has good intentions gone horridly wrong.

Alpharius, follow by Curze, Magnus and Angron.

Alpharius joined Horus out of loyalty to the Emperor in a true moral quandary kind of way. Curze and Angron were already pants-on-head-crazy and were more tragic; Angron already had reason to hate the Emperor, and Curze was already toeing the line prior to the Heresy, but for doing what he thought was most effective. Magnus has already been mentioned heavily.

 da001 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
When given the choice of joining a God of Torture-Rape and unfullfiled excessive longing I think I'll pass, thankyouverymuch. The Emperor was at least trying to make the Galaxy a better place for humanity, the Chaos Gods have no care for those who are "too weak" to carve their own little niche out.

Indeed, at the end of the day no matter how you rationalize how "great" the boons of chaos may be, at the very end of the day you are deluding yourself into believing that service for the Dark Gods is anything but evil and self-destructive. Not only are the Chaos Gods fickle and are just as likely to give you tentacles for eyes as they will give you enhanced strength, but your life ironically becomes increasingly one-dimensional as you fall deeper and deeper into devoting yourself towards their ends (willingly or not). For every Daemon Prince there are millions that die unremembered and in horrible agony, their souls being picked apart by daemons, for you to think that you're any different is the trap that has captured fools throughout the ages.

The Imperium, decrepit as it is, has kept mankind alive for 10 millennia, and has legitimately pleasant worlds like those in Ultramar or Agri-worlds. What daemon worlds can one name where normal human beings could actually live in relative peace without fear of their souls being devoured in the Eye of Terror? I can't think of any that can come near to the worlds I have mentioned, and even in the hellish death worlds of the Imperium you don't have to suffer fates like those in the Realm of Chaos.

That´s a matter of interpretation.

Many worlds 'liberated' by the Emperor during the Crusade were doing just fine before being forced to abide by the rule of a bloodthirsty tyrant. Chaos was around during the Dark Age of Technology and during all stages of human history, and it was only when a non-human entity used humanity as a weapon against them that things turned really bad for everyone.

Also, the Imperium is described as 'the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable'. Most of their worlds are described as Hell for most of its inhabitants. Compare it with the few non-imperial human worlds we know, and you will see a big difference. Even in some of the few Daemon Worlds described you will find better places to be.

Coming to think of it, Chaos worlds are mostly medieval-fantasy worlds. Read 'Daemon World', by Ben Counter, for example. Or the worlds described in Hammer of Daemons. They look like something taken from Moorcock, Howard or George R R Martin. And they sure look exactly as the world of WFB, which includes a gate to the Eye of Terror. Sure, there is a lot of suffering, but there is also hope, dreams and a lot of things you will not find in the ruthless tyranny of the depths of a Hive World. The only exception is when a Chaos Space Marine, or a Primarch, is in charge. But this is supposed to be really rare.

And Slaanesh is just the god of obssession. Aphrodite, Venus, or Freya are the obvious reference here, just like Mars, Ares, or Tyr are Khorne equivalents. Sure the gods are really nasty when at war, but they have been around since forever and it hasn´t been that bad, at least not compared with the hell of a life the average imperial citizen endures. This is mostly because the gods completely ignore humanity most of the time.

Also... what do we know about the true motivations of the Emperor? He turned the galaxy into a nightmarish hellhole for 10000 years, and justifying that by saying that he was trying to do the best for humanity sounds odd. What if he is a god? What if he were merely a powerful psyker trying to do what the Silent King did to the C´tan? What if he were a tool used by other force?

The biggest example I can think of Chaos actually not being all that bad for a planet is the Laer. The Laer were a group of perfectly happy Xenos rolling about in gigantic orgies while praciting fine arts and seemingly not having anything to support having gone to war in the recent past. Then The Emperor's Children pop by and massacre them.

Angron for me.

I just don't believe that it was impossible to remove the nails. Regardless of how arcane their workings were, the Emperor's knowledge of biosciences combined with the Admech's skills with cybernetic brain interfaces should have been able to solve the problem, given time. Without the nails, Angron and the War Hounds would have had a very different story.

Horus gets my second vote.

Torquar wrote:
Angron for me.

I just don't believe that it was impossible to remove the nails. Regardless of how arcane their workings were, the Emperor's knowledge of biosciences combined with the Admech's skills with cybernetic brain interfaces should have been able to solve the problem, given time. Without the nails, Angron and the War Hounds would have had a very different story.

This. I like the paranoid-persecutory eternal question of "Did the Emperor leave Angron this way as a means to an end in some long-term nefarious purpose? Or did he just see what Angron had become and decide he wasn't worth the effort to fix?"

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
(...)
What if the Chaos Gods are in fact Killer Rabbits from another dimension that needs humanity to eat every other existing universe?

If you think that's a silly proposition, it's because it is. Likewise, we've got 25 years of fluff saying that the Emperor was trying to make the Galaxy a better place for humanity and that the Chaos Gods care little for humanity at large. Ignoring that just because you feel like it is perfectly fine, but it's not the foundation of a good argument.

I mentioned some sources... actually just about any source that it is not written from the point of view of an imperial propagandist. 'Pawns of Chaos', 'Daemon World', 'The First Heretic' (about Lorgar´s motivations), 'The Sabbat Worlds Crusade', the Liber Chaotica, the Index Astartes... there are many sources that depict the Emperor and the Imperium in a rather bad light, and that develope Chaos´ characters beyond the 'they are just eeeeeeevil' you seem to enjoy.

Have you got any Black Library book? Open it and find the Introduction. You will find a page that starts with 'It is the 41st millennium'. Keep reading and you will eventually get to the point I quoted you, where it talks about the Imperium being 'the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable'.

We´ve got 25 years of fluff saying that the Imperium is a hellhole and that nobody cares about humanity. Ignoring that becase you feel like it and want the Imperium to be a 'good place' is perfectly fine, but it´s not the foundation of a good argument. Mentioning official sources supporting your point of view (like I do with mine) could make it more interesting.

First and foremost among the rare sources supporting your view of the Emperor as a good guy is the 7th edition Rulebook. And the 6th edition Rulebook did something similar. This is why I talked about the background before 2012. We have moved from 'the Emperor was a bloodthirsty maniac, and the Imperium an all-out nightmarish regime worse than any other mankind has known' (1985-2012) to 'Space Marines are good guys and the Emperor a benevolent tyrant' (2012-2014). It was rather gradual, but the change is there.

Lorgar more than Magnus for me.

Magnus was explicitly told not to use his powers, and in using them he ruined the Emperor's Webway Project, which I believe was directly linked to the fact Malcador/Emperor had to sit on it during and after the battle of Terra to stop the Daemons pouring through.

Lorgar was trying to impress his father and was simultaneously warned as he was punished and humiliated, which was hardly fair when for all the injustice and stupidity caused by the Imperial religion, in modern 40k it is significant in preventing Chaos from taking root.