Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

my vote for most sympathetic goes to Angron, for sure. All the poor guy ever wanted to do was RIP AND TEAR YOUR GUTS. PRIMARCHS ARE HUGE, THAT MEANS THEY HAVE HUGE GUTS! RIP AND TEAR, RIP AND TEAR

 DarknessEternal wrote:

He did so to save his legion from being stranded in the warp and turned into Nurgle zombies. His intention was to open fire with his fleet upon Horus' when they broke back into real-space at Terra. This is why Typhus killed all of their navigators and stranded them.

Magnus deliberately, knowingly, and voluntarily corrupted his entire legion with daemons moments after being reunited with them.

At least Mortarion had it forced upon him.

You have any proof for the assertion that Mortarion's intent was to fire upon Horus' ship in Terra? Because that surely wasn't in Index Astartes, nor the more recent Horus Heresy: Betrayal that I could see. Is it in Collected Visions? Or did you just make it up?

Did he now? When was that? Because he never made a pact with Tzeentch until he had exhausted every other option available to him in order to combat the Flesh Change, leading to him accepting salvation from a higher source out of desperation so he could save his sons. Just... Like Mortarion, according to you, actually. Yet you find Mortarion far more sympathetic for some reason?

Not that I'm sure why you're even bringing Magnus up to me (That's a joke, I know exactly why you are).

I have absolutely no sympathy for Magnus, his own arrogance and.pride doomed millions of innocent people and his own legion, he was warned time and again by others and his father and still he thought he knew better, it's his own fault.

If I played with fire around a petrol pump and people kept telling me to stop, I know it's dangerous but I think I'll be fine, and still people keep trying to warn me, then my Dad comes along and tells me that petrol is flammable and it could kill me AND still I choose to play with fire next.to that petrol...then booom, but it's not just me that goes poof, it's the staff of the petrol station, the people who just happen to be walking past.

Who is to blame there, cos it ain't daddy.

 Formosa wrote:
I have absolutely no sympathy for Magnus, his own arrogance and.pride doomed millions of innocent people and his own legion, he was warned time and again by others and his father and still he thought he knew better, it's his own fault.

If I played with fire around a petrol pump and people kept telling me to stop, I know it's dangerous but I think I'll be fine, and still people keep trying to warn me, then my Dad comes along and tells me that petrol is flammable and it could kill me AND still I choose to play with fire next.to that petrol...then booom, but it's not just me that goes poof, it's the staff of the petrol station, the people who just happen to be walking past.

Who is to blame there, cos it ain't daddy.

What if the only way you could alert daddy to the invading militia was to use the petrol to create a huge warning beacon? That'd be a fairer comparison, I'd say.

It's also not entirely true. No one ever told him how and why the Warp was dangerous, even his father. He was just told to stop, no explanation, no "I know you want to learn and understand everything, but this is beyond you for now". Just. "Stop doing it."

Since Magnus was an extremely intelligent and curious individual, that was probably the worst possible way to get him to actually stop delving into it. In fact, the Emperor could not have made him more curious and resolved to figure out the who what and why if he'd actively supported and guided Magnus' efforts.

That's not true either

Magnus was taken for a tour of sorts by daddy and when he asked about certain things he was explicitly told that delving too deep was dangerous, Khan also warned him that talking more than a sip from the cup (warp) was dangerous, lorgar also warned him of the dangers of.the warp, but that not from any prior knowledge just a general warning, Russ warned him too, mortarion also, so if Dad and most of.your brothers say "dude.that stuff is bad mojo" and you ignore them as misinformed idiots, your the one to blame.

Then let's add to that, he was a scholar and as such would no doubt have read.the reports of warp incursions the other legions encountered or heard about.them, he would have found evidence of the chaos gods and chosen to ignore all the links as he thought he knew.better, further he had actually met such creatures and again knew the threat.they.posed but again chose.to.ignore it.through pride and arrogance.

He brought everything on himself.

The Flesh Change that was destroying his Legion should have been evidence enough.

 Formosa wrote:
I have absolutely no sympathy for Magnus, his own arrogance and.pride doomed millions of innocent people and his own legion, he was warned time and again by others and his father and still he thought he knew better, it's his own fault.

If I played with fire around a petrol pump and people kept telling me to stop, I know it's dangerous but I think I'll be fine, and still people keep trying to warn me, then my Dad comes along and tells me that petrol is flammable and it could kill me AND still I choose to play with fire next.to that petrol...then booom, but it's not just me that goes poof, it's the staff of the petrol station, the people who just happen to be walking past.

Who is to blame there, cos it ain't daddy.

Magnus tried to warn the Emperor in the only way available that would reach the Emperor in time to make a difference. That was his only real sin. If the Emperor hadn't hidden his plans for the webway from Magnus and had been more open the issue wouldn't have happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
That's not true either

Magnus was taken for a tour of sorts by daddy and when he asked about certain things he was explicitly told that delving too deep was dangerous, Khan also warned him that talking more than a sip from the cup (warp) was dangerous, lorgar also warned him of the dangers of.the warp, but that not from any prior knowledge just a general warning, Russ warned him too, mortarion also, so if Dad and most of.your brothers say "dude.that stuff is bad mojo" and you ignore them as misinformed idiots, your the one to blame.

Then let's add to that, he was a scholar and as such would no doubt have read.the reports of warp incursions the other legions encountered or heard about.them, he would have found evidence of the chaos gods and chosen to ignore all the links as he thought he knew.better, further he had actually met such creatures and again knew the threat.they.posed but again chose.to.ignore it.through pride and arrogance.

He brought everything on himself.

But Russ and Mortarion were misinformed idiots. The Thousand Sons were right. He didn't know the threat the chaos powers posed until they tricked him while he was trying to warn the Emperor but if the Emperor had actually explained to him things would have been different. Magnus doesn't "really" understand the warp until after the moment that condemns him to the Imperium

If you don't sympathize with Magnus than you can't sympathize with any of the Primarchs. Which is fine some people don't relate well to situations they haven't been through themselves so always think it's as simple as "you get what you ask for" but that's not how 40k or the real world work. Turds happen.

jakejackjake wrote:

Magnus tried to warn the Emperor in the only way available that would reach the Emperor in time to make a difference. That was his only real sin. If the Emperor hadn't hidden his plans for the webway from Magnus and had been more open the issue wouldn't have happened.

Magnus was trying to prove a point. He could have used Astropaths. He could have sent a ship. He could have sent his projection to a place that wasn't explicitly shielded from the Warp; to one of his brothers perhaps. He also didn't provided any evidence if I recall correctly. By your own words if the Emperor had told Magnus about the Webway then he wouldn't have been able to contact the Emperor in time anyway unless he deliberately breached the wards on the human connection to the Webway.

If I recall correctly an old peace of background has the Emperor sense the virus bombing of the loyalists on Istvaan. In the 'The Outcast Dead' Magnus' message didn't even reach the Emperor before Garro did. Though I really didn't like that addition.

Magnus by far.

I think saying "if you can't sympathise with Magnus then you can't sympathise with any of the Primarchs" is a silly thing to say. Magnus broke the rules and then when people came to stop him he decided to continue to break rules. A simplified view but you get the idea.

Yet I sympathise with Angron because all his friends were killed by a man who could easily have saved them but decided he couldn't be bothered.

Didn't Horus repent right before he died? Once the demon left his body?

Also, after reading Fulgrim, you see that he too realized he made a grievous mistake for the damage he had done right before his soul is vanished within the daemon prince

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:

Magnus tried to warn the Emperor in the only way available that would reach the Emperor in time to make a difference. That was his only real sin. If the Emperor hadn't hidden his plans for the webway from Magnus and had been more open the issue wouldn't have happened.

Magnus was trying to prove a point. He could have used Astropaths. He could have sent a ship. He could have sent his projection to a place that wasn't explicitly shielded from the Warp; to one of his brothers perhaps. He also didn't provided any evidence if I recall correctly. By your own words if the Emperor had told Magnus about the Webway then he wouldn't have been able to contact the Emperor in time anyway unless he deliberately breached the wards on the human connection to the Webway.

If I recall correctly an old peace of background has the Emperor sense the virus bombing of the loyalists on Istvaan. In the 'The Outcast Dead' Magnus' message didn't even reach the Emperor before Garro did. Though I really didn't like that addition.

It's explicitly stated that Astropaths were being disrupted by the state of the warp for a long time, and it was intentional by the ruinous powers but Magnus didn't know that. Communication was almost completely down for the Thousand Sons to Terra so no he could not use astropaths. It is stated that there was no way for his message to get to Terra in time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
I think saying "if you can't sympathise with Magnus then you can't sympathise with any of the Primarchs" is a silly thing to say. Magnus broke the rules and then when people came to stop him he decided to continue to break rules. A simplified view but you get the idea.

Yet I sympathise with Angron because all his friends were killed by a man who could easily have saved them but decided he couldn't be bothered.

That's not a simplified view it's actually just completely inaccurate. When people came to stop him he saw his mistake, even though it was really the Emperor's fault for lying, and he took all of the defences of his home world away and allowed all of the people to be slaughtered and his legion decimated.

It is the duty of any citizen of any nation or world to challenge unjust laws and rules. He shouldn't be looked at negatively for breaking a unjust law but should be applauded for the courage.

Let's not forget that Magnus believed Russ' assault was Emperor-approved. He thought that his father wanted him and his Legion dead for what he had done, and he didn't resist.

That speaks of a really unhealthy father/son relationship. The Emperor did tell Magnus that he would destroy him should he go against his wishes.

The Emperor wrote:If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time.

This is how you discipline your children when they do something you don't approve of.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
I think saying "if you can't sympathise with Magnus then you can't sympathise with any of the Primarchs" is a silly thing to say. Magnus broke the rules and then when people came to stop him he decided to continue to break rules. A simplified view but you get the idea.

Yet I sympathise with Angron because all his friends were killed by a man who could easily have saved them but decided he couldn't be bothered.

That's not a simplified view it's actually just completely inaccurate. When people came to stop him he saw his mistake, even though it was really the Emperor's fault for lying, and he took all of the defences of his home world away and allowed all of the people to be slaughtered and his legion decimated.

It is the duty of any citizen of any nation or world to challenge unjust laws and rules. He shouldn't be looked at negatively for breaking a unjust law but should be applauded for the courage.

pm713 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
I think saying "if you can't sympathise with Magnus then you can't sympathise with any of the Primarchs" is a silly thing to say. Magnus broke the rules and then when people came to stop him he decided to continue to break rules. A simplified view but you get the idea.

Yet I sympathise with Angron because all his friends were killed by a man who could easily have saved them but decided he couldn't be bothered.

That's not a simplified view it's actually just completely inaccurate. When people came to stop him he saw his mistake, even though it was really the Emperor's fault for lying, and he took all of the defences of his home world away and allowed all of the people to be slaughtered and his legion decimated.

It is the duty of any citizen of any nation or world to challenge unjust laws and rules. He shouldn't be looked at negatively for breaking a unjust law but should be applauded for the courage.

Yet we have the Battle of the Fang and who smashed the laboratory? Oh yeah Magnus that's some great surrender there. It's his fault for intentionally breaking the law which was done for his protection.

He should be applauded for being told something is bad by the expert on the subject and then doing it.....right.

Just saying for someone who surrendered he did an awful lot of war like things that don't seem to go with surrendering.... like fighting back.

Obviously and clearly Magnus.

The poor bastard was loyal!

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

The Emperor wrote:If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time.

One thing that's interesting about the HH series is that, by accident or design, they've often avoided one of the all too common failings of fantasy and sci-fi writing - that is to give the characters modern/21st century views and attitudes. The Emperor in particular behaves far more like many of the gods and heroes of classical mythology in that he appears entirely oblivious to, or above, conventional morality or psychology.

Ironically, given his abhorrence to being worshipped as a deity, the Emperor seems to behave most like the God of the Old Testament - all lofty commandments and disproportionate retribution.

I'm looking forward to Master of Mankind to see if ADB tries to delve deeper into this incredibly difficult character, though part of me hopes that he keeps him as a distant, unknowable presence.

That's the thing, though. While I don't think this is bad writing or bad characterisation, it makes the Emperor an idiot. He's supposedly been manipulating human history (which requires a great deal of predicting how humans will respond to things, also known as psychology) for countless years, but he is so careless and obtuse in how he treats his sons that the Horus Heresy was inevitable. He allowed them to fracture, develop personal rivalries and allegiances (how he personally worsened Perturabo and Rogal Dorn's relationship, even knowing how Perturabo was feeling unappreciated, without so much as sitting his upset son down and having a father-son talk about how he values his contribution, or anything), and taught them almost nothing. He was a completely terrible father to them, and a father is what they needed.

His logic was that things would always go his way because he's the Emperor, regardless of how it might seem. Curze, for example, was obviously insane and unstable and the Emperor did not attempt to manage this at all before handing him control of a Legion. How he handled the recovery of Angron and Mortarion from their respective worlds was also awful and hugely short-sighted - he expected they would get over their bitterness because hey, he's the Emperor. All Magnus ever got was "Stop using magic or else I'll kill you", and how he dealt with Lorgar's faith was abysmal.

Then he appoints Horus Warmaster (cementing the feeling among the Primarchs that Horus was dad's favourite, which is never a good thing), and then abandoned them without explanation, leaving them all feeling bitter and neglected. The Emperor gave his various sons a lot of reasons to dislike him, and very little to make them think positively about him other than giving a few his personal authorisation to lord over one of their brothers and get in gloating - Roboute Guilleman to Lorgar and Dorn to Perturabo.

So, in short, what you said is a good thing - but the Emperor has no excuse as to how he would not know psychology, even if he was personally above it. He should know how to manipulate people, and you'd think he would take a lot more care in handling his Primarchs.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
That's the thing, though. While I don't think this is bad writing or bad characterisation, it makes the Emperor an idiot. He's supposedly been manipulating human history (which requires a great deal of predicting how humans will respond to things, also known as psychology) for countless years, but he is so careless and obtuse in how he treats his sons that the Horus Heresy was inevitable.

So what makes you think he DIDN'T foresee the Heresy? Maybe everything went exactly the way he wanted. Maybe everything is STILL going exactly according to plan...

pm713 wrote:
Just saying for someone who surrendered he did an awful lot of war like things that don't seem to go with surrendering.... like fighting back.

You mean after his world was already lost and there was no chance for victory? After he shut down all of the planets defenses? The Thousand Sons very well could have won that engagement if the planetary defense systems like the orbiting warships, weapons platforms and such that would have crushed a solid portion of the opposition before they even hit the grounds hadn't been shut down and the forces would have been well prepared for an attack instead of doing it last second. He gave the Wolves the fight. That's what happened in the stories but you're free to believe what you want.

There are plenty of times that breaking a law or rule isn't only justified it's flat out the best course of action. I feel bad for anyone who has lived their entire life how they are told. Never breaking laws, going from high school, to university/college, to a job that isn't a dream and never straying enough to really experience life. Just living how they are told. That's probably the saddest existence I could possibly imagine. The ability to decide right from wrong for yourself and not based solely on selfishness and not based solely on laws in rules is a big deal. It's pretty essential to the forward movement of society too.

jakejackjake wrote:

It's explicitly stated that Astropaths were being disrupted by the state of the warp for a long time, and it was intentional by the ruinous powers but Magnus didn't know that. Communication was almost completely down for the Thousand Sons to Terra so no he could not use astropaths. It is stated that there was no way for his message to get to Terra in time.

Yet the other Loyalist Legions were generally capable of moving sufficient distances to combat the Traitors. His message was unnecessary anyway. He was played by Tzeentch into trying to prove that his methods were superior.

You also didn't say what would have been different had he known about the Webway project. Either he decided that sending the message was less important or he would have broken the Webway project anyway.

The thing people need to realize about Magnus is that he only ever began treating with Warp creatures to save his Legion. If he didn't make that pact with Tzeentch, his Legion would have been put down as a failure, making Magnus the only Primarch who failed his Legion. He doomed himself when he made a deal with Tzeentch, and made a lot of bad decisions, but his motives were irreproachable. That's what makes him sympathetic.

Compare Angron, who while being driven mad by the Nails, is also a total donkey-cave to people who had nothing to do with De'Shea, even when calm. Whether or not this makes it hard to sympathize with him is a matter of opinion. Personally it makes it hard for me to.

I voted for Konrad Curze.

he helped create an imperium he could never be apart of, and he knew that. They were used to hunt the monster within the Imperium, and because of that they became monsters.

"Because he's the hero the Imperium deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. Night Haunter."

Jimsolo wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
That's the thing, though. While I don't think this is bad writing or bad characterisation, it makes the Emperor an idiot. He's supposedly been manipulating human history (which requires a great deal of predicting how humans will respond to things, also known as psychology) for countless years, but he is so careless and obtuse in how he treats his sons that the Horus Heresy was inevitable.

So what makes you think he DIDN'T foresee the Heresy? Maybe everything went exactly the way he wanted. Maybe everything is STILL going exactly according to plan...

Perhaps it was all an elaborate scheme to fake his "death" so he could nap for tens of thousands of years.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:

It's explicitly stated that Astropaths were being disrupted by the state of the warp for a long time, and it was intentional by the ruinous powers but Magnus didn't know that. Communication was almost completely down for the Thousand Sons to Terra so no he could not use astropaths. It is stated that there was no way for his message to get to Terra in time.

Yet the other Loyalist Legions were generally capable of moving sufficient distances to combat the Traitors. His message was unnecessary anyway. He was played by Tzeentch into trying to prove that his methods were superior.

You also didn't say what would have been different had he known about the Webway project. Either he decided that sending the message was less important or he would have broken the Webway project anyway.

It's possible that he would have instead taken up arms against Horus, or relayed his message through some means close to the Imperial Palace (Rogal Dorn, maybe). Either way, if the Emperor had informed his sons that he knew about the traitor before Magnus found out, then it wouldn't have happened. Even if he personally did not want to believe that his favourite son could fall to Chaos, his decision to completely ignore the problem rather than confront Horus about it (one of those "Son... you know you can tell me anything, right?" talks) allowed it to spiral out of control. He didn't even hesitate in sending the Space Wolves to bring Magnus back to Terra; rather than asking Magnus to come (as he would have), he purposefully sent the Primarch who not only absolutely hated Magnus and his Legion, but was known for a thirst for violence almost as strong as Angron's. He could have sent Sanguinius, who could be trusted to be fair and as diplomatic as possible, but still strong enough to handle the situation if Magnus resisted.

Magnus knew that the Emperor would kill him for using his powers. Not only did the Emperor explicitly say so, but Magnus obviously believed it (and believed that it was justified), as evidenced by how he received the Space Wolves while believing they were his father's retribution. He knew, and he told him about the traitor anyway.

Magnus' only failing was trusting in the Emperor. He should have used his power to warn his brothers about Horus, which would have prevented a lot of death.

 Formosa wrote:
I have absolutely no sympathy for Magnus, his own arrogance and.pride doomed millions of innocent people and his own legion, he was warned time and again by others and his father and still he thought he knew better, it's his own fault.

If I played with fire around a petrol pump and people kept telling me to stop, I know it's dangerous but I think I'll be fine, and still people keep trying to warn me, then my Dad comes along and tells me that petrol is flammable and it could kill me AND still I choose to play with fire next.to that petrol...then booom, but it's not just me that goes poof, it's the staff of the petrol station, the people who just happen to be walking past.

Who is to blame there, cos it ain't daddy.

Fine point, well presented.

Ive changed my mind then..

I suppose I'll go with Horus, he seemed totally loyal until he get fethed by the warp gods in that snake lodge, maybe he would never have turned at all if they didn't brainwash him with magic.

And then loads of the traitor Primarchs lived, poor old Horus got completely wiped out of existence.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Toeko wrote:
I voted for Konrad Curze.

he helped create an imperium he could never be apart of, and he knew that. They were used to hunt the monster within the Imperium, and because of that they became monsters.

"Because he's the hero the Imperium deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. Night Haunter."

Mate read an Unremembered Empire. Ten books ago I would have agreed with you maybe, there is no such ambiguity now.

Curze turned into Alan Rickman in Robin Hood, he was total utter scum.

As in, "enjoys killing old women with his bare hands so people watching will suffer" scum.

He went from being a complex character, to Ted Bundy inside 6 novels.

It's almost like he's suffering from a debilitating mental illness or something.

Mate read an Unremembered Empire. Ten books ago I would have agreed with you maybe, there is no such ambiguity now.

Curze turned into Alan Rickman in Robin Hood, he was total utter scum.

As in, "enjoys killing old women with his bare hands so people watching will suffer" scum.

He went from being a complex character, to Ted Bundy inside 6 novels.

Well, that sucks. I need to read it. I always liked the "batman"/ Necessary Evil aspect that I grew up with.

 Toeko wrote:
Well, that sucks. I need to read it. I always liked the "batman"/ Necessary Evil aspect that I grew up with.

Aaron Dembski Bowden has said he'll be writing an HH novel about the Night Lords which is something to look forward to. Personally I didn't think much of his portrayal in The Unremembered Empire. He's shown to be very very dangerous and gets some effective action sequences, but, much like the non-flashback scenes in Vulkan Lives, his characterisation doesn't really rise above that of a one-dimensional supervillain/serial killer.