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 Savageconvoy wrote:
And I'm finding this thread to have some disturbing ideas.

The setting of 40k is supposed to show the darker aspects of humanity and put them in the spot light. The whole "purge the alien/mutant" thing is eugenics and racism yet it's a common thing in the setting. People will even justify that.

But having the setting also have a sexist aspect where they won't let women into the Marine club is what people have a problem with? Or suggesting that it's the fault of the gaming community for not wanting a such a retcon to the fluff for the seemingly sole purpose of trying to make the grimdark setting more PC? Or the game developers for establishing a setting where genocide on planet wide scale happens along side inequality in the work place? I don't know, it might just be me.

If it were none because of sexism that would be one thing, and you would have a strong point. However the fluff reason for there being none is a a kinda-sciencey sounding thing. "Implants will not bond to the chromosomes". But that's besides the point, I want to know why the PLAYERS dislike them so much.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
The Blood Angels, who suffer from the 'curse'. Think about it...

Lol.

"If it were none because of sexism that would be one thing, and you would have a strong point. However the fluff reason for there being none is a a kinda-sciencey sounding thing. "Implants will not bond to the chromosomes". But that's besides the point, I want to know why the PLAYERS dislike them so much. "

Probably because giant cannon changes piss off people that are heavily invested into it.

I don't know a single person that does...

 Savageconvoy wrote:
And I'm finding this thread to have some disturbing ideas.
.

it can get much more disturbing....

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It would be like having female Orks, just to say they exist.

Well, not to be TFG, but there also aren't any male Orks, either. The very idea of gender is alien to Orks.

 Wilytank wrote:

 dekinrie wrote:

but to have female marines with all their womanly bits...

I don't imagine female Space Marine bits being more than just a few unique female heads with facial scars and short hair, maybe longer hair for Blood Angels or Space Wolves. Their bodies would be altered by the surgical parts of initiation so their features wouldn't be as noticeable if noticeable at all due to being further obscured in power armor.

I honestly doubt there'd be any difference at all. As the muscles get bigger, the breasts get less and less noticeable, and when you add PA on top...

See here? This is a squad of female Space Marines, 100% perfectly modelled to what they would look like.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
However the fluff reason for there being none is a a kinda-sciencey sounding thing. "Implants will not bond to the chromosomes". But that's besides the point, I want to know why the PLAYERS dislike them so much.

Well, for the game part I say it's not implausible that a genetic warlord like the Emperor decided that he'd make his successors male only. After all, he's from a time when it was all the rage - if your women were meant to stay at home with your keys (if your culture allowed them such stature) then they should do it even after the Great Sky Father picked your finest to have a chance at joining the Warriors in the Sky. And the resulting marines are mules who must protect the regular humans in their recruitment domain or go extinct....

What the players dislike, I can't say. Many in my group have played opposite-sex characters in RPG campaigns without ill efffects. Though not always at full effect either, as many failed ideas in the "remembrance" section shows.

I honestly like the first picture, though I hate the tactical midriff.
To me, I don't dislike the idea of female marines. If it was in the setting or had a really good idea for retconning it. But the setting isn't really set up that way. It's sexist that they either never figured out how to make female marines or just lie that they can't to keep them in the kitchenarium operating the ovenatum while they go off on grand adventures with the good ol' boys club.
I get that. In real life I'm against sexist behavior. But I'm also against whole sale genocide. I don't think it would be a good idea though to remove Exterminatus from the fluff though and changing the line to "Purge the alien if they continue to reject our calls for reasonable, civilized discourse".

I don't think it's that people hate women in the game...look how many female Eldar and dark Eldar there are...you also have male/female daemons...for no good reason...orks are exempt...sisters...are there women tau? No clue, tau bore me...are there women necrons? Most Tyranids could be considered women more so than men with the exception of tyrants...but that also comes with it's own set of sexism (harpy, crone, dominatrix) and I've seen so many female guardsmen across the US that they're as common as men to me.

Marines seem to be the only army devoid of women...besides blanks and such.

 ductvader wrote:
I don't think it's that people hate women in the game...look how many female Eldar and dark Eldar there are...you also have male/female daemons...for no good reason...orks are exempt...sisters...are there women tau? No clue, tau bore me...are there women necrons? Most Tyranids could be considered women more so than men with the exception of tyrants...but that also comes with it's own set of sexism (harpy, crone, dominatrix) and I've seen so many female guardsmen across the US that they're as common as men to me.

Marines seem to be the only army devoid of women...besides blanks and such.

Necrons seem genderless.

Tau have O'shaserra.

Tau don't distinguish from genders, only rank their caste from what I remember. Kroot are impossible to distinguish male from female by humans and GW never listed physiological differences for Tau, so the models could be female or male for all we know.

And the only book that touches on female Tau that I'm aware of is the Shadowsun book, but I won't touch that. The synopsis makes it seem like her hardest decision she's ever had to make was.... Being the leader of the empire's army or... going home and making babies... Because she's a woman...

I for one would get myself some female marines (or male Sororitas [Frateritas?]) were they suddenly retconned into existance. It's not that I'm advocating for it, but it would be nothing game-breaking for me.

However, there's a certain faction where GW could introduce some gender variety, where badass girls with a gun and a talent for war would make a perfect fit without butchering the narrative in the process... I'm looking at you, Imperial Guard...

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Tau don't distinguish from genders, only rank their caste from what I remember. Kroot are impossible to distinguish male from female by humans and GW never listed physiological differences for Tau, so the models could be female or male for all we know.

And the only book that touches on female Tau that I'm aware of is the Shadowsun book, but I won't touch that. The synopsis makes it seem like her hardest decision she's ever had to make was.... Being the leader of the empire's army or... going home and making babies... Because she's a woman...

Wow.

Just...

Wow.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
I for one would get myself some female marines (or male Sororitas [Frateritas?]) were they suddenly retconned into existance. It's not that I'm advocating for it, but it would be nothing game-breaking for me.

However, there's a certain faction where GW could introduce some gender variety, where badass girls with a gun and a talent for war would make a perfect fit without butchering the narrative in the process... I'm looking at you, Imperial Guard...

Don't the do this all the time? Not to mention he fact that every third inquisitor is a woman.

 dekinrie wrote:
i think the problem is that to some male marines are special it signifies they aren't toy soldiers but war gaming miniatures much more respectable,
but to have female marines with all their womanly bits well that's a whole other kettle of fish their just toys and that's why people freak out or it could be a lot of gamers are in the closet and only want to play with manly men
while GW will never do it I wouldn't mind even retconing the sisters to have some augments[u].

or instead of retconing they could do the unthinkable and you know........ advance the plot line!!! ........ however that's asking the world of GW

@ductvader Sadly, female guard appear only in BL books, and the cool gothicpunk inquisitor woman was lost to the great finecasting of 2013. Right now the Inquisition/Guard ranges are quite skewed towards the male side of the gender spectrum. As in two models (DCAs) to everything else.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
@ductvader Sadly, female guard appear only in BL books, and the cool gothicpunk inquisitor woman was lost to the great finecasting of 2013. Right now the Inquisition/Guard ranges are quite skewed towards the male side of the gender spectrum. As in two models (DCAs) to everything else.

Well, there's also this lady:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod11500137
The text underneath dubs her as "Warrior Woman".

There is 2 in there (Rocket girl)

Also the one tanith model they dont make anymore.

but the point still remains.

Id love more variety in the IG at least. makes fore more fun conversion projects.

There is breaking the fluff, and then there is breaking 20 year old fluff that countless other works have been based on.

Thats the difference between making female space marines and say turning Necrons into Daleks the next time they get released.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
@ductvader Sadly, female guard appear only in BL books, and the cool gothicpunk inquisitor woman was lost to the great finecasting of 2013. Right now the Inquisition/Guard ranges are quite skewed towards the male side of the gender spectrum. As in two models (DCAs) to everything else.

I'm not talking about GW models...I'm talking about fluff as well as third party models...or self sculpting...

It would be in the long run a very good thing for female models to be included in the mix, for Imperial Guard (or is that Astra Militarum?) as well as Space Marines. There's nothing to lose, and who knows maybe it might even increase the player base to include a greater proportion of female players. More players is never a bad thing.

So, post-embyronic genetic manipulation, psychics, magical demons, ultra futuristic guns that shoot a grand total of 30m, swords vs guns, demonic possession are all totally fine and make complete sense, but suddenly training a woman completely breaks logic? It's fantasy, and anything is possible. DNA cannot replicate itself for long enough to last thousands of years for a Space Marine to still be alive, so it's not like we're seriously following sense to begin with.

Why the sudden equation of female = sexualised? That's just sexualised society talking. A female model doesn't suddenly make the game sexualised, it means society teaches to makes all women sexualised.

An armoured female doesn't need a huge, unrealistic DD sized bust, besides. The armour on a space marine is huge, and all that exercise would leave little in the way of fat deposits.

It would be really cool to have 3 or 4 models out of every Imperial Guard squad as female, it already fits with the fluff anyway that they recruit both men and women.

Finally, the existence of the Sisters of Battle proves that there's not s strict sentiment against female models, having a couple of female heads per tactical squad wouldn't damage anything.

God In Action wrote:

It would be really cool to have 3 or 4 models out of every Imperial Guard squad as female, it already fits with the fluff anyway that they recruit both men and women.

Why no children?

For conscripts!

You're an ageist I say!

It has much less to do with training. it entirely has to do with jean seeds which is space fantasy all together.

 ductvader wrote:

God In Action wrote:

It would be really cool to have 3 or 4 models out of every Imperial Guard squad as female, it already fits with the fluff anyway that they recruit both men and women.

Why no children?

For conscripts!

You're an ageist I say!

Incidentally that is a really terrifying idea for really grimdark conscript fluff. Sending the 13 and 14 year old children off to fight the demons, because they're expendable... I can totally imagine the Imperium doing that.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Welp, even if they did exist... They'd look manlier than you and I.

Yeah. Whenever this topic comes up I immediately think of Battletech's female Elemental troopers and laugh when people think of this as a female Space Marine:







When really they should be thinking of something closer to this (with a shaved head instead):





Fluff-wise, I don't care either way because Space Marines aren't really my thing, but I would understand the outrage over changing such a major aspect of the Space Marine background. But, do I want a muscle-bound woman miniature like that Crusader Elemental? Hell yes! Might be a cool look for Sisters Retributor squad members.

 dekinrie wrote:
i think the problem is that to some male marines are special it signifies they aren't toy soldiers but war gaming miniatures much more respectable,
but to have female marines with all their womanly bits well that's a whole other kettle of fish their just toys and that's why people freak out or it could be a lot of gamers are in the closet and only want to play with manly men
while GW will never do it I wouldn't mind even retconing the sisters to have some augments.

Female Space Marines wouldn't have to be sexualised to work.

The problem with them is largely just that they go against the way people perceive the fluff. Retconning them in wouldn't immediately fix that... current players would still be against the idea due to it changing something that they see as a pivotal part of the fluff. It would take time for it to be accepted as the new black, in the same way that many players strongly resisted the change in Necrons from their original incarnation.

 ductvader wrote:
I don't think it's that people hate women in the game...look how many female Eldar and dark Eldar there are...you also have male/female daemons...for no good reason...orks are exempt...sisters...are there women tau? No clue, tau bore me...are there women necrons? Most Tyranids could be considered women more so than men with the exception of tyrants...but that also comes with it's own set of sexism (harpy, crone, dominatrix) and I've seen so many female guardsmen across the US that they're as common as men to me.

Marines seem to be the only army devoid of women...besides blanks and such.

Commander Shadowsun is a female Tau.

I just can't get over the "If it isnt broken, don't fix it" approach.

God In Action wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

God In Action wrote:

It would be really cool to have 3 or 4 models out of every Imperial Guard squad as female, it already fits with the fluff anyway that they recruit both men and women.

Why no children?

For conscripts!

You're an ageist I say!

Incidentally that is a really terrifying idea for really grimdark conscript fluff. Sending the 13 and 14 year old children off to fight the demons, because they're expendable... I can totally imagine the Imperium doing that.

Cadia does that. They're called Whiteshields.

@Troike, Desubot. Yup, completely forgot about the Warrior Woman. Heck, now I think of it she looks as if someone had strapped Catherine Tate's head to the body of a buxom amazon. On a studded leather miniskirt, no less.

Ah, early-2000s GW. No wonder I had forgotten

No comments on Rocket Girl, for what matters...

@Jayden63. Well, they turned them into Cybermen.

@ductvader. Oh, but I hope there'd be some sort of official reckoning of gender diversity in the ranks of the Imperial Guard (or Astra Militarum) beyond tie-in literarure. Indies and homesculpts are fine, but nothing would end the debate better than some awesome female Guards with a big GW logo slapped all over the box.

@God In Action. My thoughts exactly. Actually, you gave me an idea, but I'd better start a new thread so as not to litter this one.