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Agent_Tremolo wrote: @ductvader. Oh, but I hope there'd be some sort of official reckoning of gender diversity in the ranks of the Imperial Guard (or Astra Militarum) beyond tie-in literarure. Indies and homesculpts are fine, but nothing would end the debate better than some awesome female Guards with a big GW logo slapped all over the box.
But that would be Gw spending money...and catering to their fans...
thepowerfulwill wrote: Ok, I know it breaks the fluff. BUT if the next day, GW retconned them into existence, hypothetically speaking, I know it wouldn't happen in all likely-hood. But if they did, what would the issue be? Would there be a problem? I'm just trying to figure out why it brings more hate then all the other fluff-breaks out there.
There's no female Primarchs. Any female astartes that somehow survived the trials would die the agonizing death of gene-seed rejection. Plus it doesn't make any sense, as the absolute strongest males (IE, what you need to be to become a neophyte) are stronger than the strongest females.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Savageconvoy wrote: Tau don't distinguish from genders, only rank their caste from what I remember. Kroot are impossible to distinguish male from female by humans and GW never listed physiological differences for Tau, so the models could be female or male for all we know.
And the only book that touches on female Tau that I'm aware of is the Shadowsun book, but I won't touch that. The synopsis makes it seem like her hardest decision she's ever had to make was.... Being the leader of the empire's army or... going home and making babies... Because she's a woman...
Wow.
Just...
Wow.
Well, it's more a 'continuing the family name' thing - the problem is because shy of surrogate mothers or bottle incubators (which is totally a possibility now I think of it), O'shassera can't do both.
Now I think about it though, that's a totally BS argument, because Tau babies are raised in creches anyway. It would literally take no more time on her part than it does to gestate the little blue camel. So yeah, the book's premise is crap.
Then again, the book also has several scenes of O'shassera kicking arse in quite awesome ways, so it's worth a read.
That said, the only evidence for a physical difference is that O'shassera has a Y-shaped facial incision, while all other Tau have I-shaped incisions. It's my pet theory that it's a gender thing, although apparently that's debunked in the book. I like it, anyway, and my Darksun scratchbuild has a Y - because dammit, I like female characters, and I'm allowed to express my bias if I want to.
GoliothOnline wrote:SoB are like Guardsmen in PA.
But so... much... more.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry couldn't resist heh. Obviously I wasn't serious.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 08:52:09
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
Hardly! The SoB have far better training, a different upbringing and a much more extreme mindset. The SoB can also perform Acts of Faith and have the Shield of Faith, abilities which are unique to them.
Uh, unless you were just talking purely in terms of height, in which case, okay.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 09:09:36
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
Or augmentation but as mentioned, SoB are not Guardsmen in PA. Such words are heresy and require you to repent heathens! And by that I mean we will purge the impurity of your being.... with flames!
Yeah. Whenever this topic comes up I immediately think of Battletech's female Elemental troopers and laugh when people think of this as a female Space Marine:
(pics snipped)
Fluff-wise, I don't care either way because Space Marines aren't really my thing, but I would understand the outrage over changing such a major aspect of the Space Marine background. But, do I want a muscle-bound woman miniature like that Crusader Elemental? Hell yes! Might be a cool look for Sisters Retributor squad members.
Yes! Right from the moment I read the thread title I thought of female Elementals. But I've always loved Elementals in general.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if there were female Marines, or if someone had done a great job of converting their army as such even if not 'technically' correct. But to be fair, I am not very fanatical when it comes to canon in ANY universe, I really enjoy seeing people's own interpretations and find that interesting in itself.
By the Throne of Terra! This thread is full of the vilest heresies imaginable!
There are no females in the honoured Adeptus Astartes, nor can there ever be.
The God-Emperor, our undying Lord, has specifically decreed that all Astartes shall be male. Female Astartes are heresy and to immediately purged.
Bolters have been known to hit targets at ranges of over 2 kilometers when wielded by a SM and a marksman with a Lasgun can expect to hit a target at over 900m without much trouble.
6,000pts (over 5,000 painted to various degrees, rest are still on the sprues)
AegisGrimm wrote: A female Space Marine would be a head swap. Whoo, hoo. They aren't needed, when the Sisters of Battle fill the same niche in a way that is so much more evocative of the setting.
It would be like having female Orks, just to say they exist. Totally superfluous.
This is pretty on point. Also, the majority of players who actually do convert up Space Marines to be women tend to be on the creepy side, sculpting giant breasts on the models and the like. I wish there was more representation of women in the game, but Sisters are a good alternative to Space Marines for that. They just need a model line that's up to snuff.
That is entirely what I meant by sexualising marines Because although female marines would, as I said, look like male marines, they vast majority of people that did it would be creepy with it
Von Chogg
LunaHound wrote:Eldrad was responsible for 911 *disclaimer, because Eldrad is known to be a dick, making dick moves that takes eons to fruit.
tremere47 wrote: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Space Marines were devised during a period of time when genderism was a massive thing and political correctness was barely even a note scribbled on a napkin.
Ignoring that, the warhammer 40k community is best known for opposing the very notion of change on every level so in adding females the community would go mental.
On other side notes current military procedures don't allow females into battlefront situations. They can be supportive though.
I don't fully understand why women make a fuss about this we're basically saying woman are too good and important to be wasted by the hundreds in battle. Yet they fight for equal rights? technically us guys should be fighting for our rights to not have to go to war but that's just the way humanity works.
Also you have to bare in mind the difference between males and females psychologically. Men are more than happy to do as they're told (within reason) and this can be seen in every relationship ever (where guys do as their wives tell them). Conversely trying to 'order' a woman to do anything or control her is grounds for her to do the exact opposite of whatever your yelling at her. This is likely not conducive to a war zone situation. Obviously i am stereotyping but you need to in order to analyze people.
I don't personally think that having females marines would be a problem nor do i think that in reality woman shouldn't be able to go to war if they so choose.
In general though female marines can't be sexualized in the same way without breaking the core aspect of marines.
Another thought is that i don't think your average warhammer 40k geek would be able to handle it. They'd totally flip out into nerd rage about the canon being broken. not that it actually has any bearing on anything.
Just my thoughts.
Edit:
On a separate note its lucky males exist at all in 40K. There are evolutionary theories that males will eventually 'die' out through the evolutionary process of removing defective genes. The Y chromosome is full of junk and not as healthy or strong as the X. Maybe what it really is is that males and females became one and humanity now replicates through some alternative means such as asexuality.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 13:49:22
The lack of models for them? Because something like that deserves models, and we all know that GW loves to make Marine models even when it's absolutely unnecessary and silly, like shoulderpads.
(answering the OP's "what would the problem be" )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 14:48:51
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I was going to add a female Space Marine to my army because at the time my fluff was different than the fluff I am working currently on, she was basically going to be my representation of Joan of Arc and be the first company captain I was thinking chapter master but thought that was too far, the model would of been a terminator with a sister of battle head. But than again one of the main reasons I made that character was to cause the hardcore cannon guys head to explode, I do not like people telling me what I can and can not do with the models that I purchased and I also like making my own back stories and my own characters (I blame D&D for that).
I do not have problem with female Space Marines or Guard but I do have a problem when people make them out to be pin up babes mainly because it is silly. But there is a possibility that the Emperor could have had at least one daughter remember that the records of the lost Primachs are gone and no one knew who they were so it is possible that one of them could of been Female because even though they say the Emperor had twenty sons no one knows for sure.
See here? This is a squad of female Space Marines, 100% perfectly modelled to what they would look like.
Totally true.
Vash108 wrote:With all the gene therapy and conditioning wouldn't they look like any other marine? Except the genitals.
Probably not even that. If GW retconned female Space Marines into existence (they were reasonable while at it) there would not really be much a change. The official excuse is that the whole process of augmentation is designed to work with male hormones profile. But considering that the process is supposed to start before puberty (and the amount of sci-fi superscience we have already) it would be very easy to say that the first step is to remove hormone producing inner genitals and replace them with a testosterone producing blob. Considering that the body of a SM will be basically defined by muscle and bone growth (controlled by the SM organs) and that the hormonal changes would prevent secondary sexual characters from developing (which means no boobs), in the end there would be no difference in what sex the aspirant had before the augmentation. After the whole thing he would be neither real male nor real female, just a Space Marine.
Thrust me, I'm biologist.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
See here? This is a squad of female Space Marines, 100% perfectly modelled to what they would look like.
Totally true.
Probably not even that. If GW retconned female Space Marines into existence (they were reasonable while at it) there would not really be much a change. The official excuse is that the whole process of augmentation is designed to work with male hormones profile. But considering that the process is supposed to start before puberty (and the amount of sci-fi superscience we have already) it would be very easy to say that the first step is to remove hormone producing inner genitals and replace them with a testosterone producing blob. Considering that the body of a SM will be basically defined by muscle and bone growth (controlled by the SM organs) and that the hormonal changes would prevent secondary sexual characters from developing (which means no boobs), in the end there would be no difference in what sex the aspirant had before the augmentation. After the whole thing he would be neither real male nor real female, just a Space Marine.
Thrust me, I'm biologist.
Astartes are not augmented before puberty. That almost never happens anywhere, as all newly taken neophytes by the Chapter range from their late teens to early twenties, and no Chapter I can even think of recruits twelve year olds. I don't even know where this came from, considering it literally NEVER happens.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 16:32:50
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Boniface wrote: Space Marines were devised during a period of time when genderism was a massive thing and political correctness was barely even a note scribbled on a napkin.
Yes and if there is a place for sexism in sf, it's in 40k. Along with racism, facism, church of rotten corpse, mass murder and other really bad things. "Oh they're killing untold billions there but what is important is that there is no gender equality" sounds a bit dumb imo.
btw why would ever political correctness influence a work of fantsy/ sf military fiction set in year 40000? Not only would that be pathetic but also overzelous to 11 and exactly the same thing that totalitarian regimes do to books.
Boniface wrote: I don't fully understand why women make a fuss about this we're basically saying woman are too good and important to be wasted by the hundreds in battle. Yet they fight for equal rights? technically us guys should be fighting for our rights to not have to go to war but that's just the way humanity works.
It's equal rights as long as its about managment, seats in government etc, army too ofc as long as its about pilots. Mining or fighting with your own bowel in hand that's for those inherently brutal dirty men peasants.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 16:58:37
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
Astartes are not augmented before puberty. That almost never happens anywhere, as all newly taken neophytes by the Chapter range from their late teens to early twenties, and no Chapter I can even think of recruits twelve year olds. I don't even know where this came from, considering it literally NEVER happens.
This image disagrees with you.
Marines start between 10 and 14 years of age. A common Marine recruitment style is to round up all the likely lads of the right age and put them in a pit together, then order them to fight to the death under the watchful gaze of a Chaplain, who may or may not have a Librarian assisting him.
The survivors are then recruited as Marines.
Of course, the Space Wolves do things differently.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Can we please not have yet another ignorant anti-feminist rant here?
Jegus H Tapdancing Christ do we not need another one of those.
Apple fox wrote: I have wanted to do a chaosie female space marine army
Please don't make them scantily clad like ninety percent of the female CSMs I've seen.
Even the freaking khornate ones were, which was a total wtf moment for me. I can see slaanesh doing that, but khorne? Khorne loves his spiky and bloody armor too much!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 17:29:41
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The way I see its is.... whether male or female they all die for the Emperor the same, in a pool of blood.
As for female Marines, it doesn't matter to me. In Power Armor you wouldn't be able to tell of its female or not. It's the Creepy guys who model on the power boobs on his marine figures that I worry about.
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Astartes are not augmented before puberty. That almost never happens anywhere, as all newly taken neophytes by the Chapter range from their late teens to early twenties, and no Chapter I can even think of recruits twelve year olds. I don't even know where this came from, considering it literally NEVER happens.
This image disagrees with you.
Marines start between 10 and 14 years of age. A common Marine recruitment style is to round up all the likely lads of the right age and put them in a pit together, then order them to fight to the death under the watchful gaze of a Chaplain, who may or may not have a Librarian assisting him.
The survivors are then recruited as Marines.
Of course, the Space Wolves do things differently.
And how recent was that? As old fluff is fairly irrelevant as of now, and the Black Library overwhelms it with current fluff.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Plumbumbarum wrote: Yes and if there is a place for sexism in sf, it's in 40k. Along with racism, facism, church of rotten corpse, mass murder and other really bad things. "Oh they're killing untold billions there but what is important is that there is no gender equality" sounds a bit dumb imo.
40k cannot reinforce the real life murder of billions because there is no such thing. It is purely fictional. But sexism is a real thing that can be and is reinforced by the tropes of pop culture.
Melissia wrote: Can we please not have yet another ignorant anti-feminist rant here?
Jegus H Tapdancing Christ do we not need another one of those.
Apple fox wrote: I have wanted to do a chaosie female space marine army
Please don't make them scantily clad like ninety percent of the female CSMs I've seen.
Even the freaking khornate ones were, which was a total wtf moment for me. I can see slaanesh doing that, but khorne? Khorne loves his spiky and bloody armor too much!
I realy just wanted to do head swaps, and some cool modification but full armor.
[/url] . 
12,000
14,000
11,000
WIP (1875)
1300
760
WIP (350)
WIP (150) 
Because although female marines would, as I said, look like male marines, they vast majority of people that did it would be creepy with it
)
it's all part of the feel.
DIY 3450pts 
1000pts 
